Is there a difference between a traidional catholic and a sedevacantist?

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is there a difference between the two?

im not gonna lie i am not a fan of vatican 2 and its effect on the catholic people, but i do believe and have faith that God will set wrongs right. the gates of hell will never prevail against the church.
 
is there a difference between the two?

im not gonna lie i am not a fan of vatican 2 and its effect on the catholic people, but i do believe and have faith that God will set wrongs right. the gates of hell will never prevail against the church.
A very big one.

A sedevacantist believes the current Pope (and the last several) are not valid Popes. They are totally out of communion with Rome, and are likely manifest heretics. Only the wacko fringe of the traditionalist movement are sedevacantists.

Traditionalist simply prefer the older way of doing things: the Mass of 1962, older manners of priestly dress and Church architecture, older method of teaching on morality, etc. They can be in full communion with Rome (FSSP, ICRSS, many non-affiliated Catholics) or in a more tenuous state (SSPX). In any case, the SSPX accept Benedict as Pope, despite their canonical status.

God Bless
 
i figured there was.

i get a terrible vibe whenever i read a sedevacantist website. it just doesnt seem right,
 
That’s because the SV sites are NOT right.

Sedevacantism is neither traditional nor Catholic.

YOUR attitude is both.
 
is there a difference between the two?
Yep, different religion. To be a trad cat, one is to be catholic. Sede are not catholics as “old catholics” neither are.
Catholics are not those who maintain this in their title, but those in communion with the vicar of Christ. Sede are not in communion, so they are not catholics.
 
OSDDSO

May I direct you to the website www.sistersofmarymc.org. These sisters are former sedevacantists and there are a few interviews that are quite good that would answer your questions.

They certainly don’t speak about sedevacantists in an uncharitable manner as many do here. It’s a disgrace how they are spoken about on this forum. Pray for them instead, and realize that there but for the grace of God go I!
 
A very big one.

A sedevacantist believes the current Pope (and the last several) are not valid Popes. They are totally out of communion with Rome, and are likely manifest heretics. Only the wacko fringe of the traditionalist movement are sedevacantists.

Traditionalist simply prefer the older way of doing things: the Mass of 1962, older manners of priestly dress and Church architecture, older method of teaching on morality, etc. They can be in full communion with Rome (FSSP, ICRSS, many non-affiliated Catholics) or in a more tenuous state (SSPX). In any case, the SSPX accept Benedict as Pope, despite their canonical status.

God Bless
While I certainly don’t agree with the sedevacantist position, I think it is an unfair generalisation to say they are " wacko’s". Misguided in some areas, undoubtedly, but by and large, they are merely trying to come to terms with the issues they see in the church today.

Pray for them, certainly, but disparaging comments don’t help anyone.

Blessings,

Steve
 
im not gonna lie i am not a fan of vatican 2 and its effect on the catholic people, but i do believe and have faith that God will set wrongs right. the gates of hell will never prevail against the church.
Just a clarification: the sedevacantist position does not propose that the gates of hell have prevailed against the Church. What it proposes is that the Church lacks a valid pope, and that a majority of the hierarchy apostatized at Vatican II. The Church can be without a pope (as she is during the period between the death of one pope and the coronation of another), and she can be small (at the outset, there were only 12 bishops living in a common room in Palestine).
They are totally out of communion with Rome, and are likely manifest heretics.
Where is the heresy? What dogmas of the Church do sedevacantists deny? Unlike the Eastern Orthodox, sedevacantists do not reject the doctrine of the primacy of Peter, but merely aver that the seat of Peter is occupied by a false claimant. That’s not heresy—it’s happened before (see: Avignon schism), and St. Robert Bellarmine and Pope Paul IV (see: Cum Ex Apostolatus Officio) both held out the possibility of a pope defecting via heresy.
Only the wacko fringe of the traditionalist movement are sedevacantists.
Ah, a summation sweetly redolent of Christian charity! 😃

Perhaps, instead of simply being enamored by the lovely aesthetics of the Tridentine liturgy, or nostalgically fond of “the old way of doing things,” they are also principled enough to take their opposition to the Vatican II church to a logical conclusion.
Catholics are not those who maintain this in their title, but those in communion with the vicar of Christ. Sede are not in communion, so they are not catholics.
Circular logic. This fails to address the original argument that precedes your conclusion: is the pope himself a Catholic in the first place?

It needs to be demonstrated to the sedevacantists that the post-conciliar popes are actually vicars of Christ. The fault does not lie with the faithful Catholic who is skeptical about a pope who promulgates the Novus Ordo Missae and a doubtful rite of Episcopal orders. The fault lies with popes and a hierarchy who continue to flaunt all manner of novelty and innovation, such that the pious observer can hardly be blamed for wondering whether the whole thing is a gross blasphemy.
 
: is there a difference between a traditional catholic and a sedevacantist?

I’m glad you asked, but I’m still not clear.
Actually, I had been avoiding this forum because that is what I thought.
So, this forum is for people who like and go to the Latin Mass? Is that a fair definition?
 
Another site that might be of interest is the following …

sedevacantist.com/sede.html

and www.cmri.org/

But if you find the arguments too alluring just pop a question or 2 back here or the EWTN forums & I’m sure you’ll get a sound counter argument very quickly.

To me, the very thought that the Chair is Empty would cause extreme despair, so reading on about the subject can be risky.:hypno:
 
is there a difference between the two?

im not gonna lie i am not a fan of vatican 2 and its effect on the catholic people, but i do believe and have faith that God will set wrongs right. the gates of hell will never prevail against the church.
I’ll answer it with a question of my own

Is there a difference between those who prefer the Ordinary rite and heretics?

It is the exact same question with just about the same degree of obnoxiousness.
 
During my 3 decades as a sedevacantist, I tended to find my fellow sedevacantists fell into one of 2 ways of thinking:
1.After Vatican Council II the Pope and almost all the bishops of the Roman Catholic Church lost their offices due to becoming heretics. This continues to this day although all (including the Pope, bishops, priests, 1.4 billion Roman Catholics) are unaware of the fact that the Pope is not the Pope, the bishops are not bishops, priests are not priests, etc.
  1. The Pope and Bishops in union with him wickedly plotted to destroy the Church by promoting the rank heresies of Vatican II and continue to be knowingly in league with Satan.
Either way, Rome has lost the faith and it is the sedevacantists themselves who represent the real Roman Catholic Church so that as long as they exist, the gates of hell will not have won out.

I too heard fellow sedevacantists say: “This kind of thing with no Pope has happened before whenever a Pope died or during historical times of multiple claimants to the chair of Peter.” The point I didn’t get when I was a sedevacantist was that right now everyone does know who the Pope is and there is no debate about it. (I think what finally taught me humility was realizing this.)

In answer to your question about traditional Catholic and sedevacantist, traditional Catholics remain loyal to legitimate hierarchy even though they long for an increase of faith, hope, and charity in the Roman Catholic Church. Sedevacantist are a type of Protestant but instead of privately interpreting scripture they hold that they can privately interpret Roman Catholic teaching. Sedevacantists tend to be very dedicated to their view of reality since they firmly beleive they are the true Roman Catholic Church so everything depends on them. Arguing with them tends to make them more firmly hold onto their perception of reality (perhaps this is a universal human trait).
 
I too heard fellow sedevacantists say: “This kind of thing with no Pope has happened before whenever a Pope died or during historical times of multiple claimants to the chair of Peter.” The point I didn’t get when I was a sedevacantist was that right now everyone does know who the Pope is and there is no debate about it. (I think what finally taught me humility was realizing this.)
There surely is a debate, though. The sedevacantists are taking the position that there isn’t a valid pope. So the objection has certainly been raised. The fact that very few people actually care about this debate is probably nothing other than a signifier of the cancerous apathy in both the Church and in the world at large. Things were probably a lote more exciting during the days of the Arian heresy, when even sailors composed sea shanties about the controversy.

If you feel comfortable taking the position that 1.4 billion Catholics can’t be wrong, that’s fine. But the sedevacantist argument is not adequately refuted just because it’s lost a popularity contest. A tiny minority can be righteous, as the stories of the Flood, Sodom & Gomorrah, and Joshua & Caleb illustrate rather well. The virtue of humility does not necessarily consist in joining the in-crowd.
Sedevacantist are a type of Protestant but instead of privately interpreting scripture they hold that they can privately interpret Roman Catholic teaching.
I’m surprised to hear this from a former sedevacantist, since it’s an absolute falsehood.

First of all, while Scripture contains Catholic teaching, there can be no question that the bible is a difficult book—full of poetry, parables, and metaphor. It can yield any number of private interpretations. But the teachings of the Church: the canons of her Councils, the encyclicals of her popes, and the magisterial teachings of her Doctors and Saints—these are hardly as ambiguous as a story about a man living in the belly of a great fish. In fact, the Church is famous for the crisp (and unflinching) clarity of her official texts (the florid prose in the documents of Vatican II being a striking departure). The Apostolic Constitution Quo Primum is readily comprehensible and plain, for example, in a way that the Song of Songs is not.

Secondly, sedevacantists don’t “privately” interpret Catholic teaching. It’s not like they sit down with a copy of Denziger’s Sources of Catholic Dogma in the same way that a Methodist sits down with a bible. Most of the intellectual work has already been done by considerably learned members of the hierarchy—beginning with Cardinal Ottaviani’s objections to the Novus Ordo and Abp. Lefebvre’s courageous writings against the post-conciliar Church. There is no re-interpretation or private interpretation being undertaken by the sedevacantist—just a principled stand on tradition. There are Catholic teachings on the papacy (and on the ways in which the pope may defect from his spiritual authority) that are written neither in verse nor in allegorical myth, and they require almost zilch in the way of interpretation at all:

If a = b, then c.
 
Yggdrasil

That’s true, they don’t “interpret” things for themselves.

And might doesn’t make right. If the truth be known, out of those 1.4 billion Catholics, how many actually know much about the Church and Her teachings? Isn’t that why places like this exist?
 
If the truth be known, out of those 1.4 billion Catholics, how many actually know much about the Church and Her teachings?
Good question. And of those that do, how many are aware of the sedevacantist argument (as opposed to just being peripherally aware of them under the banner dismissal of “lunatics”)?
Isn’t that why places like this exist?
Yes. The internet in general has been a boon to the so-called “traditionalist” movement. Fifteen years ago, the debate was largely confined to a smattering of independent publications like the Remnant and the Angelus, and on the rare occasion that it made its way onto the pages of the diocesan newspapers, it was usually in the form of a letter to the editor whining for an Indult Mass. Few Catholics managed to take notice until the internet was able to level the playing field of accessibility and provide an unmitigated forum for discourse.

It’s even arguable, I think, that Summorum Pontificum was a form of damage control—an attempt to mainstream the Tridentine Mass, since the dual endeavors of Ecclesia Dei and the FSSP had pretty much backfired as far as Rome was concerned. They were siphoning Catholics away from Novus Ordo services, instead of drawing them out of the SSPX (which had been the original intention). That may be a cynical view, but there’s no denying that the Latin Mass got a lot of traction from the internet between 1997 and 2007.

Perhaps sedevacantism will be the second beneficiary of this trend, as more Catholics gravitate in the “traditionalist” direction. FSSP priests have begun to make use of the pulpit in order to publicly discourage their flocks from attending Gerry Matatics’ seminars—an open acknowledgement that sedevacantism is gaining an allure and a momentum to be reckoned with. Summorum Pontificum will have succeeded if Catholics are willing to more or less accept a “high church / low church” liturgical divide (and how very Protestant, of course). But it will no doubt be a failure in Rome’s eyes if the Tridentine Mass begins to kindle a latent longing in many Catholics for more than just aesthetic beauty, or a nostalgia for staid 1950s-era morality.
 
While it is certainly true that majority opinion does not determine catholic teaching, that typically applies to the laity, not the magisterium!

To argue that 99.5% of the valid bishops of catholicism simultaneously went off the rails while 2 or 3 lonely holdouts constitute the REAL church is to utterly discard the efficacy of having a magisterium in the first place. At that point every man decides for himself whether to follow the pope in union with the bulk of bishops or to go off and find one lonely bishop somewhere that agrees with him and declare that THERE is the last vestige of the Church! Call it what you like, but sedevacantism today is really quite similar to protestantism: refusal to accept the authority clearly instituted by Christ.

The sv argument is self defeating. If they win the argument, they lose the soul of the church. At that point who knows, maybe Arius was right and there’s ONE guy out there still in his apostolic lineage some place that constitutes the Church! 😉 The argument either proves too little or too much.

I can sympathize though. It IS hard to figure the reasoning of our bishops some times. But some of that comes from vanity. As if the fact that I can’t understand it means it can’t be from God! :rolleyes:
 
Manualman:

Please explain to me what you meant by: “As if the fact that I can’t understand it means it can’t be from God.” I am uncertain as to your meaning.
 
The REAL heart of the sv idea is that Vatican2 and all the popes since are so different than what came before that it must be false.

First, that’s simply not true. Nothing in the actual Vatican2 documents contradicts previous catholic dogma. Dogma. (as opposed to beloved customs and small t traditions).

There ARE some hard things to comprehend about the Vatican2 documents. Some parts are confusing and arguably lend themselves to abuse/misinterpretation. I may personally wonder why the heck some things were worded that way. But it becomes vanity for me to say that they SHOULDN’T have been worded that way.

Does that help?
 
Manualman, forgive me, but that’s not so.

John Courtney Murray, S.J,. who was the guiding light behind D.H., is quoted as saying that it could not be reconciled with the past teachings of the Church. Yves Congar said the same. I do not have the time to go into it now. Maybe tomorrow.
 
The only debate about whether John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI were/are Popes is among sedevacantists. Additionally, although 1.4 billion doesn’t signify orthodoxy, when part of that 1.4 billion happens to be the recognized Pope and the Bishops in union with him throughout the world then it does carry weight at least with Roman Catholics. A great test is to ask you neighbor who the current Pope is. You always get the same answer! (You know you are a sedevacantist when this doesn’t make any sense to you.)

One issue with the sedevacantists I have known is they refer to the time since Vatican Council II as the Great Apostacy foretold in the bible which ushers in the End Times as Rome loses the faith. This is a bleak way to live as the only solution to the issue for them is either the 2nd Coming or for the Roman Catholic Church to admit that its universal leadership either purposefully or accidentally lead the entire Church into heresy through Vatican Council II and that the independent Sedevacantist bishops are indeed the true Roman Catholic Church. Both scenarios are unlikely.

I think the traditional Roman Catholics have a better approach by remaining members of the Church and praying and working for an increase in faith, hope, and charity within the Church. Traditional Roman Catholics realize that it is Jesus’ Church and it has the guidance of the Holy Spirit to preserve it through time to distribute the graces won by Jesus death on the cross through the sacraments.
 
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