Is there a Limbo?

[tuopaolo]

byzmelkite:

Actually, I thought St. Augustine didn’t believe in limbo. St. Augustine taught that unbaptized infants went to hell. Some medieval scholastics suggested the idea of limbo.

Limbo is technically part of Hell where “Hell” is taken in the broad sense to include all those places in the afterlife where there is an exclusion from the beatific vision – thus it includes also purgatory (where there is a temporary exclusion from the beatific vision). So St Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas were in perfect agreement about that. They both agreed that there was a “pain of loss” (pain here doesn’t mean suffering) – that they were excluded from the beatific vision. Where they DISAGREED was whether there was a “pain of sense” (meaning suffering analogous to that experienced by fire). St Augustine thought they would experience a MILD “pain of sense.” St Thomas Aquinas argued that they did not experience a pain of sense at all and where in fact a state of a natural gladness and a certain union with God (though lacking the kind of union present in the beatific vision, etc.)

Catholics are permitted to believe either in St Augustine’s view or in St Thomas Aquinas’ view. But I don’t think many people today adhere to St Augustine’s view. St Thomas’ view has been defended by at least one Pope (it may have been more than one but I don’t know for sure)

So in conclusion “Limbo” is not a new idea, but rather the same idea that St Augustine taught but with the clarification that there is not even a mild “pain of sense” and simply a coining of a word to describe this state/place. Additionally there is the idea that not only is it free from suffering, but it is also a place of great gladness – more gladness perhaps than is experienced on earth.

 

[BibleReader]

**I never heard anything about our seed being made of garbage and sin. It is not until the sperm cell firtilizes the egg and becomes an embryo and develops a soul that original sin is contracted. That is how God prevented the original sin from consuming Blessed Mary as an embryo, he protected the developed soul like with a shield. So in otherwords, Mary had original sin around her but not in her and when she said “yes” to Jesus it was completely destroyed. **

A man’s sperm does not have a soul, a woman’s egg does not have a soul, when they come together a soul is born and produced. So in other words, in this belief of yours of the seed having original sin, then what is baptism for? Does a baptized man have original sin? No! Therefore, his seed doesn’t either. But, his kids contract the original sin. Original sin does not come until the embryo is formed (in which the soul is produced). It’s like a demon waiting for when the soul becomes present in order to attack it.

You seem to be “going South” on us, Roman Army. It’s not just human “seeds” and sex. Who the heck restricted it to sexual subjects? Not me.

Original Sin is not just a bad decision two folks without belly buttons made thousands of years ago. It’s a state of profound alienation of all things human from God. Human flesh, outside of grace, is a God-hating rebellion machine. Outside of God’s grace, every moral decision made by every human being in every circumstance will be the same as that sin in the Original Sin story – evil. That is why, had Moses seen God in the face, Moses would have been killed (not just his little spermies! Why the preoccupation with “seed”???). Exodus 33:20. Is this, or is this not, taught by our Magisterium about Moses? Read Exodus 33:20, and tell me.

Human alienation and God-hating rebellion machine our flesh comprises is mortally inconsistent with God’s perfect justice.

Again, that is why we HAD to be saved.

 

[Roman_Army]

BibleReader:

You seem to be “going South” on us, Roman Army. It’s not just human “seeds” and sex. Who the heck restricted it to sexual subjects? Not me.

Original Sin is not just a bad decision two folks without belly buttons made thousands of years ago. It’s a state of profound alienation of all things human from God. Human flesh, outside of grace, is a God-hating rebellion machine. Outside of God’s grace, every moral decision made by every human being in every circumstance will be the same as that sin in the Original Sin story – evil. That is why, had Moses seen God in the face, Moses would have been killed (not just his little spermies! Why the preoccupation with “seed”???). Exodus 33:20. Is this, or is this not, taught by our Magisterium about Moses? Read Exodus 33:20, and tell me.

Human alienation and God-hating rebellion machine our flesh comprises is mortally inconsistent with God’s perfect justice.

Again, that is why we HAD to be saved.

20 But my face you cannot see, for no man sees me and still lives. -Exodus 33:20

What does this have to do with Original Sin? When Jesus was incarnated did everyone who looked at his face die? No! Where do you see our flesh being mortally inconsistent with God’s plan? God made our bodies, it was Adam and Eve who messed up and contracted the Original Sin, as a result our bodies must die as a punishment, though we are forgiven and removed of the Original Sin through baptism. Since also, we were chastised out of the Garden of Eden we are subject to the temptations of this earthly exile and suffer. It is not our seed that has original sin but the embryo that contracts it, because in it lies a soul. To say that our flesh is garbage and that we must be eventually removed from it and enter the spiritual realm, is the same as what the Gnostics believe and wrong. Don’t you believe in the final resurection of the Body?

 

[masterjedi747]

BibleReader:

Babies did not “acquire” sin. It is in our “stuff.” We are made of sin-seeking garbage, and not more.

Absolutely wrong. And I believe that is heresy. You are essentially saying here that “human beings are totally depraved and wicked creatures”, which is the big problem that caused Martin Luther to fall into his own error and confusion.

BibleReader:

That is why the blood and water comes out of Jesus’ side…It is part of the ingredients of our creation.

No. Blood and water come from the side of Christ as sacramental symbols of the universal Church. Just as Adam’s wife (Eve) was brought forth from his side, so too is the bride of Christ (the Church) brought forth from the side of Christ. Blood and water are sacramental symbols of Baptism and the Holy Eucharist. They are the foundation of the universal Church that was born at the very moment upon which Christ’s sacrifice was made complete on the cross. Mary also stood witness to this event at the foot of the cross, and this is one of the reasons why we refer to her as the “Mother of the Church”.

BibleReader:

Our creation wasn’t completed until Christ died.

No. Our salvation wasn’t completed until Christ died. Get it straight. Christ’s sacrifice wasn’t in the least bit necessary until after Adam and Eve had fallen into sin. Adam and Eve were created as perfect human beings. They didn’t have any concupiscience (tendacy towards sin) inhereted into their souls. God’s creation wasn’t lacking in anything. It was good. But then Adam and Eve lost a little bit of their humanity as a result of sin, and that flaw was passed down and inhereted by each subsequent generation. We call this “Original Sin”, and it is precisely why each one of us is in need of the sacramental Baptism to restore (redeem) our souls to their original integrity before we are able to enter into heaven.

BibleReader:

There is nothing “unjust” about sending babies to Limbo.

There’s nothing “unjust” about sending them to heaven either.

BibleReader:

Outside of grace, presence before God – the Beatific Vision – kills us. It annihilates us. See Exodus 33:20.

OMG. You are seriously over-analyzing this passage. Listen carefully to what I tell you. All this part means is that once you have seen the Beatific Vision, once you have seen God face to face and understand what He is, you will not be able to want to choose anything else over Him. That’s all. If Moses had been able to witness the Beatific Vision with his own eyes, he would have (literally) died of joy at that very moment and gone straight to heaven. To see the Beatific Vision is to be in heaven. They are one and the same. And “annihilates” is far too strong of a word…your soul can never cease to exist. If it were to do so, then that would mean that God no longer loved you, that He was no longer holding you in existence, and that He had somehow made a mistake by creating you in the first place…which we know is an impossibility. You can never cease to exist. God created you because He loves you, and He will never stop loving you, no matter how much you might want him to. That is why hell exists. It is for those people who choose to turn away from God and reject Him, thus rejecting Truth. God will never stop loving them, so they will never cease to exist, but since they have chosen to reject Him permenantly, they cannot participate in the Beatific Vision. They are tortured forever, consumed by self, and hatred for everyone and everything, including themselves.

BibleReader:

That is why Mary had to be immaculately conceived. When the almightiness of God touched her person at the time of the Annunciation, and joined to her flesh in her womb, Mary would have been destroyed, had she not been immaculately conceived.

Again, no. The only reason why Mary really had to be concieved free from Original Sin is because she was the Mother of God. She is the Ark of the New Covenant. For her to be tainted by the evil of sin in any form, for her to have co-operated with Satan’s plan in any form, for her to be an imperfect bride for the perfect groom, would only serve to detract in a way from the perfection of Christ Himself. Mary was cleansed (essentially auto-baptized) from Original Sin through the anticipatory graces of Christ’s salvation. She freely accepted each and every single grace which God ever gave to her, and co-operated with His Divine Plan for the duration of her entire life. Just as Eve was originally created without Original Sin, so too was Mary (the “New Eve”) given the same gifts as the original parents of the human race…and this time, she didn’t co-operate with Satan’s plan.

 

[masterjedi747]

BibleReader:

Limbo exists, therefore, for the samne reason that Mary was immaculately conceived.

Well, I guess I just about shredded every last piece of your wonderful logic behind that theory.

Scads of unbaptized people go to Heaven, when I may not even make it!

No. You cannot enter into heaven if you have not recieved Baptism to remove Original Sin. It could be either Baptism by Water, Baptism by Fire/Blood, or Baptism by Desire. But Baptism itself is an indispensable and completely necessary requirement for us entering into Christ’s Church. Absolutely no exceptions…unless of course you were born without Original Sin in the first place.

BibleReader:

Genesis 2:21 and John 19:34 and Exodus 33:20 are from the Roman Catholic Bible approved and published by the Church’s own inspired Magisterium

Sure, but that obviously doesn’t mean that you could just go ahead and interpret them any way you want to, and then still claim it as a “valid theological viewpoint” just because you’re reading from the same passage of the Bible. Martin Luther used that exact same type of logic to justify his “theological viewpoint”. There are some passages of the Bible that must be taken literally, some which must not be taken literally. The Church doesn’t leave all of them open for us to decide our own private interpretation.

BibleReader:

Baptism is a “grace conduit.” For babies, with an inactive free will, so that Actual Grace can not be accepted by the free will, Baptism is the only grace conduit.

I assume here that when you say “Baptism”, you are referring strictly to Baptism by Water. But that’s exactly why this topic is still somewhat open for discussion. It’s completely possible (and very likely) that unbaptized infants who die before the age of Reason could still be capable of recieving some other “extra-sacramental” form of Baptism that we could not possibly know about unless it was revealed to us. Maybe God gives them the same type of informed choice that He gave to the Angels. Maybe they go to be cleansed by the prayers and sacrifices of others in Heaven and on Earth while in Purgatory. Until it becomes an officially defined Truth, almost anything is possible, But God is Merciful, and since we know that He desires for everyone to be in eternal union with Him in Heaven, we could still say that some of these theoretical situations are much more reasonable and/or probable than others.

 

[BibleReader]

Hi, Roman Army.

**20 But my face you cannot see, for no man sees me and still lives. -Exodus 33:20
**
**Roman Army: What does this have to do with Original Sin? **
BibleReader: Note that in the Adam and Eve myth, God is portrayed as talking to Adam and Eve face-to-face. It doesn’t SAY face-to-face, but we apprehend that before the expulsion from Paradise, it was face-to-face. AFTER the expulsion from Paradise in the historical sections of Genesis, God’s presence, in a special appearance, is always “filtered” with an angel.

Roman Army: When Jesus was incarnated did everyone who looked at his face die? No!
BibleReader: Are you the one who called me a heretic the other day? If so, your “shoot from the hip without thinking” approach here is consistent.

You seem, here, to be implicitly denying the truth underlying infallible Exodus 33:20. Believe me, believe me, Exodus 33:20 is true.

Therefore, your effort, here, should be to explain how it could be true that looking at Jesus DIDN’T KILL, while looking at God in Exodus 33:20 DID kill. Clearly, both of these things are true, aren’t they? Aren’t they? Aren’t they?

Probably, the explanation lies in the fact that God’s special presence on Earth in the form of Jesus was necessarily like us, so that He was “killable-offable,” and that this “killable-offable” form is also “lookable-at-able.”

Roman Army: Where do you see our flesh being mortally inconsistent with God’s plan?
BibleReader: This seems badly worded. The PURPOSE of God’s plan is to address that mortal inconsistency. Again, BELIEVE ME, Exodus 33:20 is NOT nonsensical fluff. It is an infallibly true articulation of the Magisterium, which gave us the Bible.

Roman Army: God made our bodies, it was Adam and Eve who messed up and contracted the Original Sin, as a result our bodies must die as a punishment, though we are forgiven and removed of the Original Sin through baptism. Since also, we were chastised out of the Garden of Eden we are subject to the temptations of this earthly exile and suffer.
BibleReader: I actually disagree with this, in part. Because the Adam and Eve story is a hypothetical with a limited purpose, THE STORY DOESN’T ACCOMMODATE YOUR THEORY OF MORAL REALITY IN ALL RESPECTS.

You say, “Since also, we were chastised out of the Garden of Eden we are subject to the temptations of this earthly exile.” Nonetheless, *Adam and Eve were also subject to temptation, weren’t they? *In Heaven, we won’t be. But because the Adam and Eve story is fiction, not intended to portray the details of reality, it portrays the impossible: Adam and Eve being TEMPTED in Paradise.

You overlook such details, in your anxiety to believe that Genesis 2-3 is a history book. It isn’t. It’s a myth teaching theology.

Roman Army: It is not our seed that has original sin but the embryo that contracts it, because in it lies a soul. To say that our flesh is garbage and that we must be eventually removed from it and enter the spiritual realm, is the same as what the Gnostics believe and wrong.
BibleReader: “The spirit IS willing but the FLESH is weak.” Did you ever hear that one? It’s in our Bible! So is this: “For the flesh has desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; these are opposed to each other…” Galatians 5:17. So is this: “Therefore, I myself, with my mind, serve the law of God but, with my flesh, the law of sin.” Roimans 7:25. So is this: “For the concern of the flesh is hostility toward God; it does not submit to the law of God, nor can it…” Romans 8:7. Jesus said, “The flesh is useless.” John 6:63. “Flesh begets flesh. Spirit begets spirit.” John 3:6. I.e., flesh’s moral potential is ZERO. Grace is necessary for it to do anything worthwhile. The Pelegian heresy disagrees with that concept.

So, tell me, my sharp-tongued, quick-judging friend, are you going to call PAUL a “Gnostic”? Are you going to call JESUS a “Gnostic”? Or should I play YOUR game, and call you a “heretic”?

Or, could it be that you should simply calm your hormones and fellowship with me, as we explore the details of our Roman Catholic faith in love?

Roman Army: Don’t you believe in the final resurection of the Body?
BibleReader: Of course. All shall rise, the damned to damnation, the saved to Purgatory and then Paradise, or directly to Paradise.

 

[allhers]

I believe there is. The reason I believe it is because there has to be a place of perfect happiness for babies that aren’t baptized doesn’t there? I’m not exactly sure if it is a level of heaven or not, but I do believe it exists.

 

[BibleReader]

Quote:
(Originally Posted by BibleReader)
Babies did not “acquire” sin. It is in our “stuff.” We are made of sin-seeking garbage, and not more.

Masterjedi: Absolutely wrong. And I believe that is heresy. You are essentially saying here that “human beings are totally depraved and wicked creatures”, which is the big problem that caused Martin Luther to fall into his own error and confusion.
__________________________________________________

**BibleReader: **Oh, sheesh! Calm down! Do you see how you call me a “heretic” here? Well, if I can prove that you are wrong, WILL YOU NASTILY CALL YOURSELF A HERETIC, HERE, IN PUBLIC?

If not, don’t call anyone else a “heretic”!!!

But for the availability of the grace on the cross (which babies can only access through Baptism, which is why there is a Limbo for babies [and probably lifelong profound psychotics]), yes, all humans are “depraved and wicked creatures.” How do I know this? Answer: The inspired Roman Catholic Magisterium told me so. When? When the inspired Roman Catholic Magisterium approved the canon of the Bible.

Proof: “The LORD looks down from heaven upon the human race, To see if even one is wise, if even one seeks God. All have gone astray; all alike are perverse. Not one does what is right, not even one.” Psalm 14:2-3; Psalm 53:3-4.

Proof: "as it is written: “There is no one just, not one, there is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks God. All have gone astray; all alike are worthless; there is not one who does good, (there is not) even one. Their throats are open graves; they deceive with their tongues; the venom of asps is on their lips; their mouths are full of bitter cursing. Their feet are quick to shed blood; ruin and misery are in their ways, and the way of peace they know not. There is no fear of God before their eyes.” Romans 3:10-18.

“The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?” Jeremiah 17:9.

So, please post a statement by yourself that “Masterjedi is a heretic.”

Do you get the point? THINK about what you are saying. KNOW your Bible. DISCUSS WITH CHARITY AND LOVE. Put away the “bell, book and candle.” Do unto others…

 

[masterjedi747]

BibleReader:

Note that in the Adam and Eve myth, God is portrayed as talking to Adam and Eve face-to-face. It doesn’t SAY face-to-face, but we apprehend that before the expulsion from Paradise, it was face-to-face. AFTER the expulsion from Paradise in the historical sections of Genesis, God’s presence, in a special appearance, is always “filtered” with an angel.

I hardly see any unsolvable conflict. So perhaps Adam and Eve didn’t see God face-to-face in the same way that we would understand it. So? Big deal. We see Moses and Abraham talking to God personally all the time, just as they would to any other person who would be standing next to them. It could have just been exactly like this for Adam and Eve. They might talk with God and recognize Him through the Truth of His Creation, but do not yet see Him in the Beatific Vision. It’s when God the Father makes Himself physically and clearly present that His splendor needs to be “filtered” through something lesser for us to be able to gaze upon it with our own eyes. Because if we were to simply see God for Who He Is in the glory of the perfect Beatific Vision, we would be unable to want to choose anything else whatsoever other than to be with Him forever, never to be separated from Him. And that’s not what God wants for us. He doesn’t want us to choose to be with Him forever simply because of how wonderful He is, but rather to choose to be with Him forever because we love Him. That’s why He gave us free will. Because true love can never be taken; it can only be given.

BibleReader:

You seem, here, to be implicitly denying the truth underlying infallible Exodus 33:20.

What? That any man would instantaneously drop dead at the “unfiltered” sight of the Beatific Vision? I think we can all agree on that fact. But you’re the one who’s taking the passage a bit too far, and saying that mankind is so completely and utterly “unworthy” to be gazed upon by God, and that he would therefore be “annihilated” at the sight of the Beatific Vision. That’s where we’re disagreeing here.

BibleReader:

The PURPOSE of God’s plan is to address that mortal inconsistency.

The purpose of God’s plan is to restore that original relationship with Him, and eliminate the inconsistency that Adam and Eve created. You seem to keep suggesting that “Christ came to complete Creation”…which is completely wrong. Creation was complete on the seventh day when God rested, and said “It is good.” Adam and Eve destroyed their intended relationship with God through an abuse of their free will, and Christ came to restore that relationship God that He desired for us.

BibleReader:

the Adam and Eve story is a hypothetical with a limited purpose

Wrong. The account of Adam and Eve (just like the account of Creation) is a documentation of a real event that is re-presented to us in a vague time, vague place, and mythical manner. But it is still completely true, and holds far more purpose to itself than you would seem to give it credit. The reality of Adam and Eve is intrinsically and inexorably connected with the fulfillment of God’s promise to send a Savior, and the entire purpose of Christ’s Passion and Death on the cross.

BibleReader:

Nonetheless, *Adam and Eve were also subject to temptation, weren’t they? *In Heaven, we won’t be.

Of course we won’t be subject to temptation in Heaven. We can’t be. But Adam and Eve weren’t in Heaven, and they had the gift of free will, so why should we think that they could not be tempted? But they didn’t have concupiscience (the increased tendancy towards sin that we experience; an effect of Original Sin), and they still could have said “no” to Satan’s suggestion.

BibleReader:

the Adam and Eve story is fiction, not intended to portray the details of reality

Is it intended to portray the details of reality? Most probably not. But does that automatically make it a work of fiction that we can ignore the facts of? Absolutely not. The truth of the Adam and Eve story is critically important to the truth of our Salvation story.

 

[masterjedi747]

[the Adam and Eve story]
portrays the impossible: Adam and Eve being TEMPTED in Paradise.

But this is not the same type of Paradise as the Beatific Vision. It’s an earthly paradise, and we know that evil has already been able to enter into parts of the world, because Satan (and all the rest of his demons) are already hanging around, waiting for their opportunity to take God’s greatest form of Creation and twist it into becoming their own personal servant. So why shouldn’t Adam and Eve have been tempted? I see no conflict here.

BibleReader:

You overlook such details, in your anxiety to believe that Genesis 2-3 is a history book. It isn’t. It’s a myth teaching theology.

No. It’s a history being re-presented to us in a mythical setting. But it is still the inspired Word of God, and thus the underlying Truth which it communicates to us is still completely true.

“The spirit IS willing but the FLESH is weak.” Did you ever hear that one? It’s in our Bible! So is this: “For the flesh has desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; these are opposed to each other…” Galatians 5:17. So is this: “Therefore, I myself, with my mind, serve the law of God but, with my flesh, the law of sin.” Roimans 7:25. So is this: “For the concern of the flesh is hostility toward God; it does not submit to the law of God, nor can it…” Romans 8:7. Jesus said, “The flesh is useless.” John 6:63. “Flesh begets flesh. Spirit begets spirit.” John 3:6. I.e., flesh’s moral potential is ZERO.

All of those things are true, but only because Original Sin has entered into the world. Because of the disordering of evil, the relationship between the flesh and the spirit no longer naturally exists as the harmonious relationship that it was originally intended to be. Instead of [Intellect Desires > Free Will Chooses > Passions Rejoice], the world insists on [Passions Desire > Free Will Chooses > Intellect Dragged Along]. The flesh is no longer a naturally reliable tool for doing good, because it now desires some things that are not good. That’s all. It’s not that the flesh is somehow inherently evil, but that the flesh is no longer inherently good.

BibleReader:

Of course. All shall rise, the damned to damnation, the saved to Purgatory and then Paradise, or directly to Paradise.

Exactly. And notice how you didn’t need to say a word about “limbo” anywhere in there.

 

[BibleReader]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BibleReader
That is why the blood and water comes out of Jesus’ side…It is part of the ingredients of our creation.

Masterjedi: No. Blood and water come from the side of Christ as sacramental symbols of the universal Church. Just as Adam’s wife (Eve) was brought forth from his side, so too is the bride of Christ (the Church) brought forth from the side of Christ. Blood and water are sacramental symbols of Baptism and the Holy Eucharist. They are the foundation of the universal Church that was born at the very moment upon which Christ’s sacrifice was made complete on the cross. Mary also stood witness to this event at the foot of the cross, and this is one of the reasons why we refer to her as the “Mother of the Church”.

BibleReader: Wel-l-l-l-l-l, although your dedication to the sacraments is appreciated, typically, in the Bible, when the Sacraments as Sacraments are being foreshadowed, it’s clearer than incidents like this: Re blood, for instance, in Job 39:30 we see the “young” who are the children of the Holy Spirit “eagle” greedily "drinking" the “blood” of *chalal, *Hebrew meaning “the pierced one.” Now THAT’S a clear Eucharistic blood foreshadowing.

However, in Leviticus 14:1-9, when the “blood” of the slain bird is splattered on another bird, which is then allowed to fly away, that’s probably not Eucharistic. That’s just a foreshadowing of how the blood of murdered Christ in the 2 Corinthians 5:21 form of Him-Who-did-not-know-sin-Who-was-made-to-be-sin would conquer sin, itself. I.e., we don’t splatter the Eucharist.

You should let Scripture speak for itself. You should resist the temptation to see the Eucharist wherever you see “blood.” It’s a mistake.

No matter what, in one breath you get down on your knees to Baptism and the Eucharist, but in the next breath YOU SEEM TO IMPLY THAT THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM IS NOT NECESSARY:

BibleReader: There is nothing “unjust” about sending babies to Limbo.
**Masterjedi’s response: **There’s nothing “unjust” about sending them to heaven either.

Sorry, Masterjedi, but you’re wrong. We were talking about UNBAPTIZED babies there. Either unbaptized babies *don’t *go to “Heaven” as we know it in theology, or Baptism isn’t necessary.

*IS *Baptism just a quaint custom, or *IS *Baptism a necessary sacrament?

We call Mary “Mother of the Church” because Christ declared her the “mother” of John, and, in principle, of the Church, too (otherwise, the verse is absurd; it has Christ doing basically-unnecessary secular “estate” work, appointing “guardians,” as He hangs from the cross, the skin savagely scraped off His body with the hooks the barbs of a scourge, thorns pounded into His skull, nails pounded through His hands and feet).

And, my judgmental, excommunicating friend, you forgot to publish your public statement that you are a “heretic,” right?

 

[BibleReader]

BIBLEREADER quoting Scripture:

“The spirit IS willing but the FLESH is weak.” Did you ever hear that one? It’s in our Bible!

So is this: “For the flesh has desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; these are opposed to each other…” Galatians 5:17.

So is this: “Therefore, I myself, with my mind, serve the law of God but, with my flesh, the law of sin.” Romans 7:25.

So is this: “For the concern of the flesh is hostility toward God; it does not submit to the law of God, nor can it…” Romans 8:7.

Jesus said, “The flesh is useless.” John 6:63.

“Flesh begets flesh. Spirit begets spirit.” John 3:6.

“The LORD looks down from heaven upon the human race, To see if even one is wise, if even one seeks God. All have gone astray; all alike are perverse. Not one does what is right, not even one.” Psalm 14:2-3; Psalm 53:3-4.

"as it is written: “There is no one just, not one, there is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks God. All have gone astray; all alike are worthless; there is not one who does good, (there is not) even one. Their throats are open graves; they deceive with their tongues; the venom of asps is on their lips; their mouths are full of bitter cursing. Their feet are quick to shed blood; ruin and misery are in their ways, and the way of peace they know not. There is no fear of God before their eyes.” Romans 3:10-18.

“The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?” Jeremiah 17:9.

MASTERJEDI’S RESPONSE TO SUCH IN HIS 9:10 AM POST: “All of those things are true, but only because Original Sin has entered into the world.”

Hold up! You’ve REVERSED yourself completely on Mankind’s innate garbage nature.

Remember why I started quoting the Bible on how DISGUSTING we are: I wrote, “Babies did not ‘acquire’ sin. It is in our ‘stuff’ We are made of sin-seeking garbage, and not more.” MASTERJEDI responded, “Absolutely wrong. And I believe that is heresy. You are essentially saying here that “human beings are totally depraved and wicked creatures”, which is the big problem that caused Martin Luther to fall into his own error and confusion.”

NOW you are saying, “All of those things are true, but only because Original Sin has entered into the world.”

So, pray tell, heretic accuser: ARE WE sin-seeking garbage? Or IS THAT “HERESY”?

Why is this important? BECAUSE IT CHANGES THE ENTIRE CONVERSATION.

Also, I want clarity. I’m not going to bother conversing with someone who’s completely reversing his position, but still appearing to disagree. That’s rhetoric, not theology.

 

[Donna_P]

I love to watch the dance - getting too old to do it well any more!!!

:yup: :tiphat: :bigyikes: :whacky:

 

[vudster]

Believe it or not, this has been discussed before. Several of you have made excellent points. Regarding unbaptized babies who have died, I refer to the catechism.

“Although God has bound salvation to the sacrament of baptism, God Himself is not bound by His sacraments.” (can’t remember paragraph number in CCC) Therefore, we are perfectly warranted in believing that God will save them - if we really believe in a love-filled, Creator God. That is enough for me. The same argument applies to any person who has never understood that there might be a God out there - either through ignorance or defect.

Forgive my simplistic view on this but it is the only view that I can see with the eyes of faith. Everything else seems like empty legalism. In the end, God saves those who cooperate when he calls. The Church and sacraments are the “ordinary” path to salvation but there are “extraordinary” paths also which are known only to God.
Peace in Christ,

 

[Roman_Army]

BibleReader:

Hi, Roman Army.

20 But my face you cannot see, for no man sees me and still lives. -Exodus 33:20

---

**Roman Army: What does this have to do with Original Sin? **
BibleReader: Note that in the Adam and Eve myth, God is portrayed as talking to Adam and Eve face-to-face. It doesn’t SAY face-to-face, but we apprehend that before the expulsion from Paradise, it was face-to-face. AFTER the expulsion from Paradise in the historical sections of Genesis, God’s presence, in a special appearance, is always “filtered” with an angel.

Roman Army: When Jesus was incarnated did everyone who looked at his face die? No!
BibleReader: Are you the one who called me a heretic the other day? If so, your “shoot from the hip without thinking” approach here is consistent.

You seem, here, to be implicitly denying the truth underlying infallible Exodus 33:20. Believe me, believe me, Exodus 33:20 is true.

Therefore, your effort, here, should be to explain how it could be true that looking at Jesus DIDN’T KILL, while looking at God in Exodus 33:20 DID kill. Clearly, both of these things are true, aren’t they? Aren’t they? Aren’t they?

Probably, the explanation lies in the fact that God’s special presence on Earth in the form of Jesus was necessarily like us, so that He was “killable-offable,” and that this “killable-offable” form is also “lookable-at-able.”

Roman Army: Where do you see our flesh being mortally inconsistent with God’s plan?
BibleReader: This seems badly worded. The PURPOSE of God’s plan is to address that mortal inconsistency. Again, BELIEVE ME, Exodus 33:20 is NOT nonsensical fluff. It is an infallibly true articulation of the Magisterium, which gave us the Bible.

Roman Army: God made our bodies, it was Adam and Eve who messed up and contracted the Original Sin, as a result our bodies must die as a punishment, though we are forgiven and removed of the Original Sin through baptism. Since also, we were chastised out of the Garden of Eden we are subject to the temptations of this earthly exile and suffer.
BibleReader: I actually disagree with this, in part. Because the Adam and Eve story is a hypothetical with a limited purpose, THE STORY DOESN’T ACCOMMODATE YOUR THEORY OF MORAL REALITY IN ALL RESPECTS.

You say, “Since also, we were chastised out of the Garden of Eden we are subject to the temptations of this earthly exile.” Nonetheless, *Adam and Eve were also subject to temptation, weren’t they? *In Heaven, we won’t be. But because the Adam and Eve story is fiction, not intended to portray the details of reality, it portrays the impossible: Adam and Eve being TEMPTED in Paradise.

You overlook such details, in your anxiety to believe that Genesis 2-3 is a history book. It isn’t. It’s a myth teaching theology.

Roman Army: It is not our seed that has original sin but the embryo that contracts it, because in it lies a soul. To say that our flesh is garbage and that we must be eventually removed from it and enter the spiritual realm, is the same as what the Gnostics believe and wrong.
BibleReader: “The spirit IS willing but the FLESH is weak.” Did you ever hear that one? It’s in our Bible! So is this: “For the flesh has desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; these are opposed to each other…” Galatians 5:17. So is this: “Therefore, I myself, with my mind, serve the law of God but, with my flesh, the law of sin.” Roimans 7:25. So is this: “For the concern of the flesh is hostility toward God; it does not submit to the law of God, nor can it…” Romans 8:7. Jesus said, “The flesh is useless.” John 6:63. “Flesh begets flesh. Spirit begets spirit.” John 3:6. I.e., flesh’s moral potential is ZERO. Grace is necessary for it to do anything worthwhile. The Pelegian heresy disagrees with that concept.

So, tell me, my sharp-tongued, quick-judging friend, are you going to call PAUL a “Gnostic”? Are you going to call JESUS a “Gnostic”? Or should I play YOUR game, and call you a “heretic”?

Or, could it be that you should simply calm your hormones and fellowship with me, as we explore the details of our Roman Catholic faith in love?

Roman Army: Don’t you believe in the final resurection of the Body?
BibleReader: Of course. All shall rise, the damned to damnation, the saved to Purgatory and then Paradise, or directly to Paradise.

**Take it easy there. No hostility intended. I’m of course fallible. So, if our Bodies are inconsistant to God’s plan, how come it is part of God’s plan that our Bodies resurect at the end? It’s not that I don’t believe Exodus 33:20, it’s that I didn’t understand what it had to do with any of this. My understanding was that our bodies were consistant with God’s plan. Now, I’m confused.:whacky: **

 

[masterjedi747]

BibleReader:

MASTERJEDI’S RESPONSE TO SUCH IN HIS 9:10 AM POST: “All of those things are true, but only because Original Sin has entered into the world.”

Hold up! You’ve REVERSED yourself completely on Mankind’s innate garbage nature.

I haven’t reversed anything. I’m saying that what those verses tell us, in context, is correct. Why? Because of the effects that Original Sin has necessarily had upon the human race. But I see absolutely none of those verses spelling out the phrase “mankind’s innate garbage nature” anywhere in there. That’s just the way you have chosen to interpret it, and I think you’re wrong. Adam and Eve’s human nature wasn’t created to be “innate garbage”. God created them, and they were exceedingly good. And if you really want the Scripture verses to support that fact:

*“God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them. God blessed them, saying: “Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it. Have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and all the living things that move on the earth.” God also said: “See, I give you every seed-bearing plant all over the earth and every tree that has seed-bearing fruit on it to be your food; and to all the animals of the land, all the birds of the air, and all the living creatures that crawl on the ground, I give all the green plants for food.” And so it happened. God looked at everything he had made, and he found it very good.” (Genesis 1:27-31) *

BibleReader:

yes, all humans are “depraved and wicked creatures.” How do I know this? Answer: The inspired Roman Catholic Magisterium told me so. When? When the inspired Roman Catholic Magisterium approved the canon of the Bible.

Then find it clearly stated for me somewhere in the Catechism, or from some other reliable source. Just because the Biblical canon is approved in itself doesn’t mean that you can go through and casually pull lots of individually-translated verses out of context to justify your own personal theological theory like the Protestants do. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that we shouldn’t be using the Bible, or anything else ridiculous like that, I just want to see some more official and reliable approval of your particular interpretation of Scripture in this area. Because I don’t believe that you’re correct. Good luck finding it.

And I would appreciate it if you could STOP using all these HUGE TYPE FONTS and CAPITAL LETTERS in your posts.

It makes you seem unnecessarily hostile, and often distracts us from from what you’re really saying. The simple use of underlining, italics, and bold text should be sufficient in most cases.

 

[BibleReader]

**So, if our Bodies are inconsistant to God’s plan, how come it is part of God’s plan that our Bodies resurect at the end? It’s not that I don’t believe Exodus 33:20, it’s that I didn’t understand what it had to do with any of this. My understanding was that our bodies were consistant with God’s plan. Now, I’m confused.:whacky: **

Hi. Please copy and paste the sentence where I say that our bodies are inconsistent with God’s plan.

God’s salvation plan is perfectly consistent with our damnable Original-Sin-tainted flesh. The damnability of our sin-seeking flesh is the reason for God’s plan.

 

[BibleReader]

BibleReader: Babies did not “acquire” sin. It is in our “stuff.” We are made of sin-seeking garbage, and not more.

Masterjedi: Absolutely wrong. And I believe that is heresy. You are essentially saying here that “human beings are totally depraved and wicked creatures”, which is the big problem that caused Martin Luther to fall into his own error and confusion.

BibleReader quoting Scripture, showing that inspired Scripture, supplied to us by our inspired Magisterium, verifies that what Masterjedi calls “heresy” is, indeed, taught by Scripture and our Church:

(1) "The Spirit is will, but the flesh is weak."

---

**(2) “For the flesh has desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; these are opposed to each other…” Galatians 5:17.

(3) “Therefore, I myself, with my mind, serve the law of God but, with my flesh, the law of sin.” Romans 7:25.

(4) “For the concern of the flesh is hostility toward God; it does not submit to the law of God, nor can it…” Romans 8:7.

(5) “The flesh is useless.” John 6:63.

(6) “The LORD looks down from heaven upon the human race, To see if even one is wise, if even one seeks God. All have gone astray; all alike are perverse. Not one does what is right, not even one.” Psalm 14:2-3; Psalm 53:3-4.

(7) “There is no one just, not one, there is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks God. All have gone astray; all alike are worthless; there is not one who does good, (there is not) even one.” Romans 3:10-18.

(8) “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?” Jeremiah 17:9.

**Masterjedi: All of those things are true, but only because Original Sin has entered into the world…*Thereafter follows “fine distinctions” in which he attempts to distinguish between his statement that it is “heresy” to maintain that ***“human beings are totally depraved and wicked creatures,” *and the above Scripture’s statements. *

BibleReader:Hold up! You’ve REVERSED yourself completely on Mankind’s innate garbage nature.

Masterjedi (forgetting that what he called “heresy” isn’t the precise words “mankind’s innate garbage nature,” but rather generally maintaining that “human beings are totally depraved and wicked creatures”): I haven’t reversed anything. I’m saying that what those verses tell us, in context, is correct. Why? Because of the effects that Original Sin has necessarily had upon the human race. But I see absolutely none of those verses spelling out the phrase “mankind’s innate garbage nature” anywhere in there.

BibleReader: Masterjedi, when you do what you do here, – get so emotionally vested that you can’t even admit that what you call “heresy” is in fact taught by Scripture, and instead try to save the appearance that you are the “master of your position” for the sake of pride, rather than seek Catholic truth, I have two choices: (1) Pander to your pride, to be diplomatic at the expense of the public perception of Scripture’s meaning; or (2) Call a spade a “spade,” offering you the dignity of simple truth rather than diplomatic deception, and state, "Look, my friend, you are so emotionally vested that you can’t even admit that you were dead wrong on an extremely basic point."

I choose (2). If you can’t admit that inspired Bible verses, from our inspired Magisterium, saying things like…

"flesh follows the law of sin," “flesh is useless,” “not one does what is right, not even one,” “all have gone astray; all alike are worthless; there is not one who does good, (there is not) even one,” "the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked,"

…clearly mean what you absolutely called “heresy”…

"human beings are totally depraved and wicked creatures"

…then communication with you is impossible.

I’ll talk with you on this subject when you can finally admit to simple, obvious truth. The conversation is ended, my friend. I am sorry.

**

 

[allhers]

my goodness, you two like to argue much? its been days since i have been on here and i see you are still at it, anyway, i was just checking to see what others had posted, carry on.

 

[allhers]

God made all things good, sin (rebelling, turning away from God, not listening to His Will), is why we have death :tiphat: