Is there a line drawn with Marion Veneration

[Irish_Polock]

My wife and I are in RCIA at the moment and being that this is the night before the Immaculate Conception and wanting to stir up the pot, I would like to ask everyones opinion on when exactly we say… “Ok, that’s going a little too far” on Marion Veneration.

Being brought up in a Irish/Polish Catholic (until I was about 8 years old anyhow) home I don’t feel I know where that line is drawn, but my wife whom was brought up in a First Baptist home, always seems to think “its gone a little to far”

Where dose the Roman Rite draw the line and should we confront those whom we witness crossing said line?

Cheers!

 

[ralphinal]

Officially, it is when the person places the BVM equal to or ahead of Jesus or God. It is hard to tell from the outside when that is.

If you are worried about someone, I suggest talking to your priest and getting his opinion.

 

[Trishie]

Mary is the best example of someone who welcomes God’s will for her life and gives birth to Christ to the world.
Mary is a great example of Christian faith and faithfulness as she ponders things in her heart, and as she encourages the servants to do as Jesus said even before he agreed to save the hosts at the wedding feast of Cana embaressment.
Mary is Jesus’ mom/mama/mummy/maman…and He loves her dearly as a truly good and loving Son should…so why would we, loving Him, not love her?
Seeing her standing heart-broken at the foot of His cross, Jesus spoke to provide for her, entrusting her to John’s care.
What place would He give in heaven to His mother!

Mary is always a signpost to God. Mary’s wish is only to lead us to her Son. Of course we ask her motherly help!
I know there are people who tend to be very devotional and might overdo things…but Jesus is Mary’s focus, and ours.

 

[Trishie]

You rejoiced for the blessing given to you Mary, and for those given to all persons through the Child whom you carried in your womb—for we also are descendants of Abraham, by faith. [Romans 4:12] You, in this loving concern for others, interceded for their needs even while on earth, exhorting them to obedient faith like your own, “do whatever He tells you”. He initially reproved you—“My hour is not yet come.” [John 2:4, 5] However, He granted your humble request.

Woman of faith, although your life held many perplexities and seeming inconsistencies, you treasured and pondered these brief manifestations of divine action in your Son’s life without losing your humble trust. [Luke 2:19-20] For it might have seemed that God could make better arrangements for the conditions of His divine Son’s birth! When you heard of the terrible slaughter of the innocent infants, intended to include Jesus, this massacre devastated your maternal heart on behalf of those other mothers. You might have said, “How can God allow this?” When you fled as a refugee with all the grief, displacement and destitution that refugee families may suffer you still kept faith. Again, you trusted, as He hung dying horribly wounded and humiliated upon a criminal’s cross.

Mary, we thank you for your care of that incomparable Child, whose coming was foretold centuries before. We thank you—for the Child whom you bore and nurtured is Saviour of all humankind! Thank you for your faith, for your obedience, for your faithfulness through all those years when the extraordinary promise made to you might have seemed lost in daily routine.

 

[Trishie]

I didn’t know what to do about Mary. I didn’t address her but only focused on Jesus. But her official birthday was coming and I said to Him, “Jesus I know You love Your mother. How do you want me to approach her?” And I asked Him to give me a gift for her birthday. I hadn’t intended to but I found myself writing this and another prayer which focused only on Jesus.
The one which addressed her follows. When I read it next morning I curled up on my bed and cried. Every time I said it for some times I cried.
I guess He gave it to me for His mother…

Woman of faith, pray for us

Dear Mother Mary, you have been honoured, blessed, and gifted by God. You are our mother because in figure of John, Jesus gave us to you as your children as He hung dying on the cross. We ask you to speak to God on our behalf.

It was through your faith that Jesus first manifested His power at Cana, thus beginning His work before the appointed time. Although it concerned neither life nor death, nor eternal salvation but the human feelings of others, He granted your trusting prayer. Such was your faith, and God’s love for you, Saint of all saints!

Therefore, we trust our prayer to Your faith in God! You see everything that we need in service of God, and all that we desire for each other. You feel the aching of our hearts and hear our longing prayers. You behold our faith, our repentance, and our love.

Stand not silently by, Mother! Our Father, your Son, and the Holy Spirit who overshadowed you and blessed you with our Saviour—They cannot refuse you!

Please give us your unfailing intercession before God so that the fullest gifts and blessings are granted to each of us. We stand humbly before you, Mother, and entreat you with our hearts, minds, and spirits…Mother!

 

[Trishie]

Please forgive me if the next post is long. I trust God to inspire me to share my prayers or not and unfortunately, I feel the following can give you and your wife insight on what Mary can be for us
Woman, behold your Child

Dear Mother, Queen of heaven, please help me to grow in worthy fraternity with Jesus, for this kinship was His dying wish. So deep was this astonishing desire, that He bridged earth to heaven for me by the racked sufferings of His soul, mind, and body. As His humanity strained to shattering point, He knew even then my sins and faults, which He understood and forgave even as He suffered. He knew that I do not comprehend the heinousness of offence against God or against others whom He lovingly created.

He knew that I could not grasp the greatness of His act of incarnation and immolation, of His redemption of us, of me. For selfishness and worldliness dims the human soul’s limited perception regarding truth and love.

He, this suffering Being subject to all human vicissitude and weakness, was aware—with pain that deepened His own—of the anguish that filled your being and drenched your face with unconscious tears of love and distress as He died for me. He knew the depth of your pain—poignant with memories of the best of sons, of the greatest of men—loving, wise and innocent, compassionate, beloved, and vibrantly human.

Disfigured beyond recognition, He died for me in apparent failure and disgrace, yet He still asked your maternal love for me, inviting me to loving fraternity. Your love, transcending all, accepted me wholly.

Lovely Lady, pure crystal of divine glory, I humbly slip my hand in yours with obedient trust. I feel unworthy, sinful, wondering and hopeful. Why has He, this wonderful, promising, intelligent young man allowed Himself to be degraded and destroyed, emptied in loving endurance that escalates throughout indescribable torment—piercing your soul? Why has He done this for one such as me, who am so insignificant and sinful! Yet He draws me into His household and gives me His own Mother and His divine Father.

Gentle Mother, most blessed, you were chosen from amongst all women to cooperate in the incarnation of the only begotten of the most high God! You were entrusted with His nurture, His moulding and protection from conception until the beginning of His public ministry. Now your suffering eyes are filled with love and pity that calm the shame, confusion and discouragement that might otherwise overwhelm me.

Mother, intercede that what He has done, and all that He promises, be fulfilled in me and in everyone for whom I pray. Please lead me to love your Son and our God as He has loved and to cherish others with such love. Lead me to give my paltry all to Him in humble, obedient, creative service. Let this small gift be blessed in your maternal love for me and in the intercession of the entire heavenly household. Thus may I live for His glory, offering atonement, gratitude and petition for us poor sinners—so that His joy and delight in me, and yours, is as great as His suffering for me, and yours.

Mother as gift to Him for such undeserved love, please obtain of the Father, that whenever Jesus looks upon me He knows only gladness, finding in me for Himself…the pleasure of an innocent child…the love and nurture of Nazareth with you…the intimacy and repose of a perfect Bethany. Let Him know with thrilled awareness, that His blood and torment, and your tears, are not wasted to me nor to souls whom His salvation reaches through me. September 29, 1981

 

[bpbasilphx]

Using Marian devotions officially approved by the Church will be a good guarantee that you are not “going too far.”

Among these are the Rosary, Litany of Loretto, and Akathist Hymn.

 

[saieditor]

My wife and I are in RCIA at the moment and being that this is the night before the Immaculate Conception and wanting to stir up the pot, I would like to ask everyones opinion on when exactly we say… “Ok, that’s going a little too far” on Marion Veneration.

Being brought up in a Irish/Polish Catholic (until I was about 8 years old anyhow) home I don’t feel I know where that line is drawn, but my wife whom was brought up in a First Baptist home, always seems to think “its gone a little to far”

Where dose the Roman Rite draw the line and should we confront those whom we witness crossing said line?

Cheers!

Pope Paul VI wrote an Apostolic Exhortatation, “Marialis Cultus”, For the Right Ordering and Development of Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

You can read it here

Part one discusses the Blessed Virgin in the Revised Roman Liturgy. In the first section of part one, the new elements in the liturgical reform of Vatican II are listed. The liturgical changes increase the number of Marian options compared to before the reform. In the second section of part one, the Blessed Virgin is presented as the model of the Church in divine worship, “namely, Mary as a model of the spiritual attitude with which the Church celebrates and lives the divine mysteries.” [MC 16] Mary is the attentive Virgin, the Virgin in prayer, the believing and obeying Virgin-Mother, and the Virgin presenting offerings.

Part two is titled “The Renewal of Devotion to Mary.” In regard to Marian devotion, the principles and guidelines set down for renewal also affect the catechetical process. Section one treats the trinitarian, christological and ecclesial aspects of devotion to Mary. Section two gives four guidelines for devotion to Mary which have since become the key orientation in the teaching process about Mary. These are the biblical, liturgical, ecumenical and anthropological elements to be taken into consideration when teaching Marian doctrine.

 

[inJESUS]

Intentions.

 

[Steadfast]

Trishie,

I didn’t see anything theologically off-base in what you posted, it looks like you have a balanced and proper mariology, but references would have been been nice.

 

[Steadfast]

Anyway, it seems to me that when it’s “Mary because of Jesus” or, “Through Mary to Jesus” it’s fine. It gets to be a problem when it’s “Mary instead of Jesus”.

It rarely gets to this point but you can usually tell when it has.

IMO, St. Alphonsus’ book “The Glories of Mary” crosses the line as do the various stories of miraculous lactation as in that of St. Bernard:

 

[Trishie]

Trishie,

I didn’t see anything theologically off-base in what you posted, it looks like you have a balanced and proper mariology, but references would have been been nice.

Thank you for your kind remarks.
Regarding your suggestion…You make a valid point.

I do sometimes put in quotes, but my prayers were never a formal exercise, but from my personal journal written at various time from the heart from stuff I know from the bible and maybe even God’s Spirit, hopefully, as I’m basically just talking and relating to our heavenly family as family. I didn’t set out to write prayers, they just flowed onto paper at different times over the years and I ended up with 18 themes or chapters without actually intending to. I never make myself write a prayer, but if I write it’s because in some way I feel impelled. Each ‘chapter’ is prefaced by relevant scriptural references…All told there’s 300,000 words in my journal, even though no word may be necessary heart to heart with God. I just find it helpful to go back to the prayers even after many years, and some are part of my everyday life.

Because of familiarity with scripture and because I relate intimately with our family in heaven, I guess I didn’t really think through that some folk mayn’t be sure if my thoughts are true to God’s Spirit and the bible.

God bless you.

 

[Trishie]

Anyway, Irish Polock, God grant that the Holy Spirit blesses you and your wife both amazingly on your RCIA journey.I’m sure He will help you both find all the right inspirations and balances as you both begin to receive the wonderful gifts that God will offer you in His Church!

 

[Trishie]

Anyway, Irish Polock, God grant that the Holy Spirit blesses you and your wife both amazingly on your RCIA journey.
I’m sure He will help you both find all the right inspirations and balances as you both begin to receive the wonderful gifts that God will offer you in His Church

 

[eelpis]

There is no line, we can never love Mary enough.
God has loved her more still. The saints have a saying “De Maria nunquam satis.” Of Mary there is never enough.
Heresy is another matter.

St Louis May says this in True Devotion:

"With the whole Church I acknowledge that Mary, being a mere creature fashioned by the hands of God is, compared to his infinite majesty, less than an atom, or rather is simply nothing, since he alone can say, “I am he who is”. Consequently, this great Lord, who is ever independent and self-sufficient, never had and does not now have any absolute need of the Blessed Virgin for the accomplishment of his will and the manifestation of his glory. To do all things he has only to will them.

However, I declare that, considering things as they are, because God has decided to begin and accomplish his greatest works through the Blessed Virgin ever since he created her, we can safely believe that he will not change his plan in the time to come, for he is God and therefore does not change in his thoughts or his way of acting."

Don’t be afraid of loving Mary too much, because you cannot.

 

[Contarini]

My wife and I are in RCIA at the moment and being that this is the night before the Immaculate Conception and wanting to stir up the pot, I would like to ask everyones opinion on when exactly we say… “Ok, that’s going a little too far” on Marion Veneration.

Being brought up in a Irish/Polish Catholic (until I was about 8 years old anyhow) home I don’t feel I know where that line is drawn, but my wife whom was brought up in a First Baptist home, always seems to think “its gone a little to far”

Where dose the Roman Rite draw the line and should we confront those whom we witness crossing said line?

Cheers!

I am not a member of the Roman Rite, but of the Anglican (not in communion with Rome, alas). My litmus test is the Incarnation. Does a given Marian devotion or belief strengthen or weaken the doctrine of the Incarnation? Obviously this isn’t clear-cut (the German Protestant theologian Wolfhart Pannenberg has argued that the Biblical stories of the virginal conception undercut the orthodox doctrine of the Incarnation, for instance!). But it gives us a starting point if nothing else. For instance, you still sometimes find Catholics say that Mary seems closer to them and more understanding than Jesus because Mary is “just human” while Jesus is both human and divine. It seems clear to me that this view of Mary is weakening the Catholic’s understanding of the Incarnation. (And by “understanding” I mean personal, experiential understanding as well as doctrinal.) On the other hand, the denial of the “Theotokos” title by some Protestants constitutes a Nestorian or quasi-Nestorian doctrine of the Incarnation–it weakens the reality of the Incarnation by separating out Jesus’ humanity from His divinity.

Use of the “Hail Mary” would seem to me to be one clear example of a Marian devotion that passes the “Incarnation test.” The doctrine of Mary’s virginity “in partu,” on the other hand, seems to foster docetism and thus is suspect in my view.

Note that these are thoughts from a non-Catholic, but I thought you might find them helpful. The main point I’m trying to make is that it’s not a matter of “too much.” I think that we can apply to Mary and the other saints C. S. Lewis’s remark about other people in general, that our problem is never that we love them to much but that we love Our Lord too little.

Edwin

 

[ralphinal]

I am not a member of the Roman Rite, but of the Anglican (not in communion with Rome, alas). My litmus test is the Incarnation. Does a given Marian devotion or belief strengthen or weaken the doctrine of the Incarnation? Obviously this isn’t clear-cut (the German Protestant theologian Wolfhart Pannenberg has argued that the Biblical stories of the virginal conception undercut the orthodox doctrine of the Incarnation, for instance!). But it gives us a starting point if nothing else. For instance, you still sometimes find Catholics say that Mary seems closer to them and more understanding than Jesus because Mary is “just human” while Jesus is both human and divine. It seems clear to me that this view of Mary is weakening the Catholic’s understanding of the Incarnation. (And by “understanding” I mean personal, experiential understanding as well as doctrinal.) On the other hand, the denial of the “Theotokos” title by some Protestants constitutes a Nestorian or quasi-Nestorian doctrine of the Incarnation–it weakens the reality of the Incarnation by separating out Jesus’ humanity from His divinity.

Use of the “Hail Mary” would seem to me to be one clear example of a Marian devotion that passes the “Incarnation test.” The doctrine of Mary’s virginity “in partu,” on the other hand, seems to foster docetism and thus is suspect in my view.

Note that these are thoughts from a non-Catholic, but I thought you might find them helpful. The main point I’m trying to make is that it’s not a matter of “too much.” I think that we can apply to Mary and the other saints C. S. Lewis’s remark about other people in general, that our problem is never that we love them to much but that we love Our Lord too little.

Edwin

Edwin,
Both you and Steadfast have posted wonderful, fair assessments of this topic.

How would you answer those who say that any honor bestowed upon her is too much?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

My wife and I are in RCIA at the moment and being that this is the night before the Immaculate Conception and wanting to stir up the pot, I would like to ask everyones opinion on when exactly we say… “Ok, that’s going a little too far” on Marion Veneration.

Being brought up in a Irish/Polish Catholic (until I was about 8 years old anyhow) home I don’t feel I know where that line is drawn, but my wife whom was brought up in a First Baptist home, always seems to think “its gone a little to far”

Where dose the Roman Rite draw the line and should we confront those whom we witness crossing said line?

Cheers!

Some clarification from the Catechism:

970 "Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."514

967 By her complete adherence to the Father’s will, to his Son’s redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church’s model of faith and charity. Thus she is a “preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church”; indeed, she is the “exemplary realization” (typus)510 of the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."511

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I am not a member of the Roman Rite, but of the Anglican (not in communion with Rome, alas). My litmus test is the Incarnation. Does a given Marian devotion or belief strengthen or weaken the doctrine of the Incarnation? Obviously this isn’t clear-cut (the German Protestant theologian Wolfhart Pannenberg has argued that the Biblical stories of the virginal conception undercut the orthodox doctrine of the Incarnation, for instance!). But it gives us a starting point if nothing else. For instance, you still sometimes find Catholics say that Mary seems closer to them and more understanding than Jesus because Mary is “just human” while Jesus is both human and divine. It seems clear to me that this view of Mary is weakening the Catholic’s understanding of the Incarnation. (And by “understanding” I mean personal, experiential understanding as well as doctrinal.) On the other hand, the denial of the “Theotokos” title by some Protestants constitutes a Nestorian or quasi-Nestorian doctrine of the Incarnation–it weakens the reality of the Incarnation by separating out Jesus’ humanity from His divinity.

Use of the “Hail Mary” would seem to me to be one clear example of a Marian devotion that passes the “Incarnation test.” The doctrine of Mary’s virginity “in partu,” on the other hand, seems to foster docetism and thus is suspect in my view.

Note that these are thoughts from a non-Catholic, but I thought you might find them helpful. The main point I’m trying to make is that it’s not a matter of “too much.” I think that we can apply to Mary and the other saints C. S. Lewis’s remark about other people in general, that our problem is never that we love them to much but that we love Our Lord too little.

Edwin

That was a great post!

 

[Contarini]

Edwin,
Both you and Steadfast have posted wonderful, fair assessments of this topic.

How would you answer those who say that any honor bestowed upon her is too much?

I’d say that they have a false understanding of how God interacts with His creation, based on a selective reading of the OT denunciations of idolatry, funneled through the lens of Renaissance Neo-Platonism and the culture of “fear and guilt” which dominated Europe from about 1300-1700, and further intensified by the secular, naturalistic view of humanity which has affected Christian theologians from the 18th century on at least (see Jonathan Edwards’s claim that fallen human beings are destitute of “higher principles” and thus totally depraved while still perfectly functioning as human beings). In other words, we would have to have a wide-ranging discussion of basic theological principles before I could even explain why I disagree with them.

Edwin