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Eric_Hyom
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Sadly, when we can only see faults in other people, we ignore the plank in our own eye.
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OriginalGabrielof12
Guest
Divine Revelation commissioned the Church to teach, preach, forgive sin, baptize all nations. How does the Orthodox Church’s have much more to offer than the Bishop of Rome, from this divine commission, God ordained His Church to do until Jesus returns?I have said often enough, and I will start with it again, I think the Orthodox have much to offer. Behind the Roman Catholic Church, they would be my second choice, but I don’t think the prospect of reunification has much to offer past feel good platitudes.
I disagree with you, The Church Jesus builds upon Rock is not subject to Change or rebuild. The elephant in the room deals with disciplines in the Church. When did God ever reveal that the gates of hell will cease to come against Peter and His Church? What you speak to deals with divine revelation, when the Church comes under attack. I will grant you, that disciplines by the Church members and her leaders is the subject of contention today, not the Church as a whole, for God always keeps a remnant Holy within the Body of Christ.Also you have to address the elephant in the room and point out that the Roman Church is in crisis right now, not exactly a selling point for the Orthodox. Never mind that Satan has gone after the big guns, the greatest threat to him, [in my opinion] it needs to be addressed. Right now, reunification would be a distraction. The
Jesus prayed for us before HIs passion death and resurrection that we should be One, as He and the Father are One. God not only divinely revealed for His body to be One on earth, the Son prayed on earth that we be One in Him and with Him in the Unity of the Holy Trinity.If God desires reunification, it will happen, if he doesn’t want it, it will never happen.
Divine revelation is never divided. Men who pretend to judge other’s outside of divine revelation causes the division, when it is divine revelation that makes us One.
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OriginalGabrielof12
Guest
I respect your opinion on this subject.Thus far, I have only commented on historical data. Please allow me to conclude with my personal opinion to this subject of the Arian heresy.
When ever one member of the body of Christ suffer’s (Arian heresy in particular) we all suffer in the body of Christ.
The heresy itself should never be a contention of tension or schism that divides the body of Christ. But calls for an ecumenical effort from all members of the Body of Christ to react in order to heal that member of the body that suffer’s.
Peace be with you
When ever one member of the body of Christ suffer’s (Arian heresy in particular) we all suffer in the body of Christ.
The heresy itself should never be a contention of tension or schism that divides the body of Christ. But calls for an ecumenical effort from all members of the Body of Christ to react in order to heal that member of the body that suffer’s.
Peace be with you
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2towers
Guest
I have no idea. I am Catholic, and God willing I will remain so to the end.Divine Revelation commissioned the Church to teach, preach, forgive sin, baptize all nations. How does the Orthodox Church’s have much more to offer than the Bishop of Rome, from this divine commission, God ordained His Church to do until Jesus returns?
I agree completely. Why would the devil try to take down anything other than the greatest threat? Of course, if he had his way, he would take down everything and everyone.When did God ever reveal that the gates of hell will cease to come against Peter and His Church? What you speak to deals with divine revelation, when the Church comes under attack. I will grant you, that disciplines by the Church members and her leaders is the subject of contention today, not the Church as a whole, for God always keeps a remnant Holy within the Body of Christ.
The “elephant in the room” by the devil’s design may knock those who are still in a state of discerning, or weaker in faith, off the fence, as to whether to leave the church, or join her.
I wont disagree, but “we” are not the ones who left. My approach to the Orthodox is the same for anyone, “this is who we are, what we believe, you are most welcome to join us or come back.” Remember the Protestants? They left too. Beyond educating those in our practices, traditions, doctrines, and making them feel welcome, what else is there? The “fly” in the ointment, is they think “we” left. Is that what I think? No, but it is not a merry-go-round, pardon the expression, that I wish to get on, and from what I have seen and heard from many Orthodox, neither do many of them.Jesus prayed for us before HIs passion death and resurrection that we should be One, as He and the Father are One. God not only divinely revealed for His body to be One on earth, the Son prayed on earth that we be One in Him and with Him in the Unity of the Holy Trinity.
Divine revelation is never divided. Men who pretend to judge other’s outside of divine revelation causes the division, when it is divine revelation that makes us One.
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AlNg
Guest
If you attend the liturgy of the Orthodox Church, you will realize that they have a whole lot to offer.How does the Orthodox Church’s have much more to offer than the Bishop of Rome,
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dochawk
Guest
Are there any Russian Catholic congregations near you?
I know we have them in LA and SF, and they use the full, unabridged RO liturgy in English.
Someday timing will work for me to get to one . . .
hawk
I know we have them in LA and SF, and they use the full, unabridged RO liturgy in English.
Someday timing will work for me to get to one . . .
hawk
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AlNg
Guest
There are liturgical texts with English and Slavonic side by side.
http://sergei.synology.me/text/sluzgebnik/DivineLiturgy-Eng_Rus_web.pdf
http://sergei.synology.me/text/sluzgebnik/DivineLiturgy-Eng_Rus_web.pdf
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ziapueblo
Guest
I know there is one in NYC. I would love to go!
ZP
ZP
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OriginalGabrielof12
Guest
The esthetic’s of a Liturgy will not save you nor grant you salvation. It is the Sacramental economy that surpasses all and any aesthetics that is viewed and seen on the outside. What is critical to the spiritual life is the inner not the outside.
One would be a fool to lend one’s salvation based on the esthetic’s of a liturgy.
Again, it is asked what more does the Orthodox Church’s have to offer than the Bishop’s of Rome? NOTHING, When it is Christ who is central to all things Liturgical. Thus it is Christ who is the movement at all times that will join back East and West together. Not the esthetic’s of a liturgy.
Peace be with you
One would be a fool to lend one’s salvation based on the esthetic’s of a liturgy.
Again, it is asked what more does the Orthodox Church’s have to offer than the Bishop’s of Rome? NOTHING, When it is Christ who is central to all things Liturgical. Thus it is Christ who is the movement at all times that will join back East and West together. Not the esthetic’s of a liturgy.
Peace be with you
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OriginalGabrielof12
Guest
Your post is most welcoming. Well said.
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AlNg
Guest
I disagree. I think a more reverent liturgy can elevate you to a higher spiritual plane of reflection.The esthetic’s of a Liturgy will not save you
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Vonsalza
Guest
That didn’t make any sense to me.Again, it is asked what more does the Orthodox Church’s have to offer than the Bishop’s of Rome? NOTHING…
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OriginalGabrielof12
Guest
It didn’t make much sense to me either.
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OriginalGabrielof12
Guest
Don’t confuse “referent” with esthetic’s. How do you gauge reverence in Christ presence with liturgical esthetic’s? According to your opinion, your reverence focus is on the outer esthetic’s instead of Christ presence, which lends towards heresy.I disagree. I think a more reverent liturgy can elevate you to a higher spiritual plane of reflection.
Mass was conducted in the catacombs in Rome, after the resurrection of Jesus Christ, where no esthetics played any role in the Liturgy, except in the Presence of Christ.
How do you define liturgical reverence?
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AlNg
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You could say the same thing about spending millions of dollars for a cathedral instead of giving the money to the poor and having Mass in a tent. why does the Roman Church spend so much money building these cathedrals?The esthetic’s of a Liturgy will not save you nor grant you salvation. It is the Sacramental economy that surpasses all and any aesthetics that is viewed and seen on the outside. What is critical to the spiritual life is the inner not the outside.
One would be a fool to lend one’s salvation based on the esthetic’s of a liturgy.
The esthetic’s of an expensive cathedral will not save you nor grant you salvation. It is the Sacramental economy that surpasses all and any aesthetics that is viewed and seen on the outside. What is critical to the spiritual life is the inner not the outside.
One would be a fool to lend one’s salvation based on the esthetic’s of an expensive cathedral such as we see in Los Angeles or in Anaheim. And yet the Roman Church still spends millions of dollars to build those cathedrals.
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OriginalGabrielof12
Guest
In every Cathedral and Parish Church you enter has a collection box specifically for the Poor. These are built to administer the Sacraments, feed and clothe the Poor. There exist many Church groups who use these Church facilities to offer their showers for the Poor and a place from the freezing and hot temperatures. I can speak to this because I happen to belong to such a group.
But we are not discussing Vocations or the use of Church finances and facilities here. Anyone who sat on a Church building committee knows how humbling and the hard work it takes to build a Church, School and Convent. In my experience, it is the Poor who builds these works of art.
No Bishop from any Church in the body of Christ has more to offer in the life of Christ. Bishop’s are ALL among Equals when it comes to the sacramental economy.
It is from this Equality among All Bishop’s that God has ordained our unity as One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Thus, from this divinely ordained Equality there exist not a movement to “join back together” some Orthodox Church’s with the Bishop of Rome, but a divinely ordained order to remain one body in Christ.
That chasm that haunts the schism remains between Orthodox Church’s supported by their emperor’s and secular powers. For example; President Putin grants lands and build’s Church’s for the Orthodox Church, as a political pawn to gain more power and more lands for Putin, in the name of the Orthodox Church. History repeats itself that feeds the schism. Beware of the sheep in wolves clothing.
But we are not discussing Vocations or the use of Church finances and facilities here. Anyone who sat on a Church building committee knows how humbling and the hard work it takes to build a Church, School and Convent. In my experience, it is the Poor who builds these works of art.
No Bishop from any Church in the body of Christ has more to offer in the life of Christ. Bishop’s are ALL among Equals when it comes to the sacramental economy.
It is from this Equality among All Bishop’s that God has ordained our unity as One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Thus, from this divinely ordained Equality there exist not a movement to “join back together” some Orthodox Church’s with the Bishop of Rome, but a divinely ordained order to remain one body in Christ.
That chasm that haunts the schism remains between Orthodox Church’s supported by their emperor’s and secular powers. For example; President Putin grants lands and build’s Church’s for the Orthodox Church, as a political pawn to gain more power and more lands for Putin, in the name of the Orthodox Church. History repeats itself that feeds the schism. Beware of the sheep in wolves clothing.
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ziapueblo
Guest
I think esthetics during the Liturgy are important as long as it is understood why? In the Byzantine Catholic/EO Church, the layout of the Church is a teaching tool: from the Narthex to the Nave, the Solea and Sactuary, the icon screen and the use of inscense.
It is true not to let these esthetics take over though. When I first started attending the Byzantine Catholic Church it was purely because of esthetics. It was through study and being part of the community that I learned why we do what we do and that the Byzantine church is much more than as “Mass” with lots of inscense.
ZP
It is true not to let these esthetics take over though. When I first started attending the Byzantine Catholic Church it was purely because of esthetics. It was through study and being part of the community that I learned why we do what we do and that the Byzantine church is much more than as “Mass” with lots of inscense.
ZP
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Spyridon
Guest
It’s true.Those realities make all this back and forth bickering seem insignificant.
When Joe Catholic and Spyridon Orthodox are about to be martyred together, I guarentee they will both be saying “Lord Jesus have mercy on us sinners” instead of “begone you filthy schismatic!”
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AlNg
Guest
In the Moscow region alone, there have been more than 200 Orthodox churches built in recent years, while in the west many Roman Catholic churches have been shut down or turned over to Muslims and converted into mosques.President Putin grants lands and build’s Church’s for the Orthodox Church
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OriginalGabrielof12
Guest
I take nothing away from esthetics, especially when they are used to decor the wall’s and windows of the Church, that record the message of the gospels in picture form, so that the illiterate can see and hear the gospel with esthetic’s, especially the Crucifix exposed front and center to all believer’s and non-believer’s alike.
A simple sacramental infant baptism has much more to offer than any esthetics.
A simple sacramental infant baptism has much more to offer than any esthetics.
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