Is there a problem of anti-Semitism within Traditional Catholicism?

[SnoopSword]

You’ve under a very serious deception. (Gal 3:1)

 

[SnoopSword]

I attend an FSSP parish, and I know of perhaps 5 individuals who have anti-Semitic beliefs (and speak about those beliefs to others), out of over 800 parishioners.

Catholics are NOT anti-Semitic REGARDLESS of our opinions because it’s NOT POSSIBLE - IN TRUTH IT DOESN’T EXIST:

“It is IMPOSSIBLE for a Christian to TAKE PART in ANTI-SEMITISM. Anti-Semitism is INADMISSIBLE; spiritually we [Christians] are ALL Semites.” -Pope Pius XI

Why does the Pope say this?

Gal 3:29 if you belong to CHRIST, then you are ABRAHAM’S DESCENDANT

Gal 3:7-8 Therefore know that ONLY THOSE who are OF FAITH are SONS OF ABRAHAM

CCC 1268:1 They [who are baptized] are “A CHOSEN RACE…”

1 Pet 2:9 YOU [Christians] are a CHOSEN RACE (after being newly baptized 1 Pet 1:3)

Only non-Catholics run around constantly worrying if their living up to that ‘religious doctrine’ - thlis results in a servitude to another Master:

Luke 16:13 NO SERVANT can serve TWO MASTERS . He will either HATE one and LOVE the other, or be DEVOTED to one and DESPISE the other.

QUESTION - What’s the big deal over this 'anti-Semitism stuff anyway? Why doesn’t Church and Laity give it a rest?

ANSWER - The Church knows what this is really about. It always has been, always will be about one thing:

“The foundation of ANTI-SEMITISMs and responsibility for the Holocaust lies ultimately in the NEW TESTAMENT.” -Roy Eckardt

“ANTI-SEMITISM IN THE NEW TESTAMENT” -Shmuel Golding

“I meet Jewish people who claim that the NEW TESTAMENT is OVERTLY ANTI-SEMITIC.” -Stephen Pacht

“There’s another ANTI-SEMITIC verse in the NEW TESTAMENT that I didn’t mention in this post. I think it CONVEYS the ANTI-JEWISH MESSAGE MORE POWERFULLY than any others.” -Ebonmuse. Patheos

"I OFTEN HEAR questions that presume guilt—“Isn’t the NEW TESTAMENT ANTI-SEMITIC? Doesn’t it TEACH Christians to HATE Jews? What about CHRISTIAN ANTI-SEMITISM and the Holocaust?” -wordofmessiah.org

“[THERE ARE] ANTI-SEMITIC or Anti-Judaic passages in the BIBLE” -religioustolerance.org

“Interview: Anti-Semitic Elements in the NEW TESTAMENT” -israelnationalnews.com

“The Anti-Jewish NEW TESTAMENT” - The Jewish Home.org

 

[dshix]

Whoa, what’s going on? Your post is rather incoherent and I’m not sure whether you’re trying to make the case that Catholics are not capable of having anti-Semitic beliefs (which is false) or if you are trying to say that the New Testament is inherently anti-Semitic (which is also false).

What is your point?

 

[Bon_Croix]

I don’t know the answer.

But, if you compare Traditional Catholics to people like the Evangelical Christians who can not stop talking about Israel and Jerusalem and the Jews and Prophecies, then Traditional Catholics could be viewed as Anti Semitic.

We talk about New Life/Grace/Sacraments and they talk about the latest current event in Jerusalem.

But, we all talk about the Ten Commandments. However, as we know, those are impossible to follow without New Life/Grace/Sacraments.

 

[Bon_Croix]

Those quotes are contradictory to other parts of the NT where 12 Jewish apostles were baptized.

So, some Semites believed; some Semites chose not to Believe.

 

[StGerardMajella]

Since there’s no salvation in Judaism it’s therefore a dead faith.

I guess it depends on one’s definition of “salvation”.

The Jewish people just finished Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, which is a solemn religious day of prayer and fasting dating back thousands of years, and clearly outlined in the Torah (Lev. 16 and 23:26) as an everlasting commandment to the Jewish people.

Everlasting, meaning eternal. It doesn’t end, even with the arrival of the Messiah. And it doesn’t end with the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. Yom Kippur is still kept today every year in Israel and around the world by faith-filled Jews.

(Incidentally, how many Catholics do you know that are even remotely familiar with the Day of Atonement or have ever even read about in the Bible, let alone know what it means?)

If we are speaking about “salvation from sin”, are we really going to deny the Creator’s ability to forgive the Jewish people on the annual Day of Atonement? A day that the Creator decreed as an everlasting commandment to the Jewish people?

“For on this day, he (the Kohen (priest) conducting the Yom Kippur service) shall provide atonement for you to cleanse you; from ALL your sins before the Lord shall you be cleansed.” (Leviticus 16:30).

I think that it is fair enough to say that the Creator still has the ability to “save” anyone He so chooses, using whatever means He deems fit. It’s pretty arrogant to think that He isn’t compassionate, forgiving, and loving to the Jewish people, or any people for that matter.

Now, that doesn’t mean a disparagement of the sacraments, or even the message of Christ. We humans can’t even begin to fathom the mysteries of the Creator and how He works, let alone His amazing, unique, and supernatural relationship with the Jewish people.

 

[Bon_Croix]

But, is the point not that the Jewish liturgy was fulfilled by the Christian Liturgy. Of course, Jews don’t believe that, but do we not believe it to be true? So, are we to be discouraged from proclaiming the Truth of the Liturgy out of fear of being labeled anti whatever?

 

[Bon_Croix]

Salvation is doing God’s will, which is only possible by God’s grace. God’s grace is found in the Christian religion b/c God is spouse of the Chruch; God’s will is to love him and to love neighbor; the only way to fully do so is via Christ. God is no longer spouse of OT religion (he was at one time)–remember the parable of the tenants and the landowner who sent his servants to collect the rent…

So, I would say, the only way a non-Christian can obtain salvation is via the Christian Church (AKA Body of Christ)–specifically, the Catholic Church and those in full communion w/ her.

 

[StGerardMajella]

But, is the point not that the Jewish liturgy was fulfilled by the Christian Liturgy. Of course, Jews don’t believe that, but do we not believe it to be true? So, are we to be discouraged from proclaiming the Truth of the Liturgy out of fear of being labeled anti whatever?

Actually, the entire Catholic liturgy is Jewish in origin, strangely enough. Each section of the liturgy, sacraments, even the layout of the church itself can be traced right back to Judaism.

No, you shouldn’t be discouraged from spreading the Good Word. You should, however, clearly understand the history of Jewish-Christian relations, and have a heightened sensitivity to past abuses. You should understand why many Jewish people are reticent about Christianity, and for good reasons.

There is a theory that Christ came to bring salvation first to non-practicing Jews that had strayed from the Jewish faith (the “lost sheep of Israel”), and later, through Ss. Peter and Paul, the Gentiles as well. You will sometimes hear in certain circles about the Noahide laws for Gentiles, as an example, and that Christ’s main intention was to spread these laws to the Gentiles. This is just observational conjecture (and controversial to some that take offense), but has some semblance of truth in that the Church is an exemplification in many respects of the widespread evangelizing and preaching of the Word to the far ends of the Earth. Whether devout, holy Jews should be proselytized would seem to be unnecessary in some respects, as they are already close adherents to the Creator and eagerly await the Messiah. St. Paul references that their conversion will occur at the end of the age.

 

[StGerardMajella]

Conversion to Catholicism was historically a life or death choice. Literally, convert or face death. This was true for many centuries. Jews underwent forced conversions, and in many cases were viciously abused for simply being Jewish - loss of property, livelihood, career possibilities, etc. were all too common. Purges and pogroms abounded in Europe and Russia in particular.

Conversion should be through example, kindness, and helpfulness, never the “in your face” evangelizing and finger-pointing, and certainly never through violence.

Honestly, the Church needs to take a good, long hard look at this history. More changes and reforms are still needed. Persecution continues even today, though from secular and other forces moreso now than the Church.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

Generalisations are never useful or reliable. There are unfriendlies in all religions, a lot can be blamed on poor translations, personal prejudices, ignorance, purposefully shutting oneself off from other viewpoints etc. Personal experiences can be subjective.

 

[StGerardMajella]

So are you saying that Jews don’t need to believe in Jesus or be a part of the Church to be saved?

“Saved” from what, exactly? I guess it depends on your definition of “salvation”.

If you mean salvation from sin, then I would ask what you are to make of Yom Kippur where the Creator made an eternal commandment stating all sins would be forgiven on the Day of Atonement. Was the Creator misinformed? Did He misspeak? When did He cancel the Day of Atonement?

Not to mention the myriad of religious practices of Jews utilized to avoid sin, such as strict rules regarding modesty, not watching secular movies and television, etc. They have literally hundreds of religious tenets and cultural norms aimed at reducing sinful behavior and leading a holy life. We could learn a lot from Jewish cultural life about avoiding sin.

I tend to agree with St. Paul as explained earlier. Proselytizing to devout, holy Jews would appear to be like trying to persuade a Carthusian to pray more. Their conversion will come at the end of the age if what St. Paul states is correct.

If you have a holy, saintly Jew that prays 3-5 hours to the Creator every day, I would think we would be better suited trying to evangelize other prospects. (We can start with fallen away Catholics.) If a Jewish person is genuinely interested in the faith, we should naturally encourage him/her, and help in any way we can.

I guess the real issue I have, given the history, is that the Church has had a long history of abuse towards the Jews. We should ask for their forgiveness and spend more time listening and learning from one another, and less time thinking we are so superior. A little charity and humility is in order.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

Yes. Jews don’t need to be part of the Church in order to be saved. That is why Catholics are forbidden from actively prosletysing Jews. The Church teaches that God has his own plan for Jews. Jews who choose to convert to Catholicism are allowed to perform all the Jewish rites/traditions, this is an exception which is not allowed to any other convert as the Jewish faith is the source and “bigger brother” to our faith.

 

[LoyalViews]

The thing is that anti-semitism is absolutely terrible, demonic, deplorable, and a proof of idiocy if we are referring to the Jewish race. If anti-semitism refers to hatred towards anyone, let alone the Jewish race, then it is also an inherently anti-Catholic thing.

Beliefs? Can the word ‘anti-semitic’ really be used when objecting to the beliefs of Judaism? No. It cannot. Christianity is the continuation of the Jewish religion; its fulfilment. There is nothing anti-semitic about objecting to the beliefs of modern Judaism.

 

[StGerardMajella]

That makes no theological sense only Christ sacrifice can forgive sins.

That may make sense to a Catholic, but not to most Jews based on their theology. Jews have a one-on-one personal and historical relationship with the Creator without any intercession.

It helps if we take time to understand the Jewish outlook and approach on these matters. Their “Hebraic perspective” is much, much older than ours, more complex, and definitive.

Jesus Christ replaced the scapegoat.

This is replacement theology which was rejected by the Church after Vatican II. Christ never abolished the Torah. Christ is the “living Torah” as Pope Benedict explained.

That’s not what happened besides a person has to be born again in water and spirit to attain salvation you know Baptism.

It’s called immersing oneself in a mivkeh in Judaism. Many of the Jewish Sages would immerse daily, and by Torah law, women must immerse at least once a month. Again, everything in Catholicism has roots in Judaism, only Judaism is generally much more rigorous. We get baptized once, and devout Jews immerse daily. Is this not evidence of devotion and holiness?

Sin can only be forgiven if Baptism first takes place and after Baptism an act of contrition or other penitential acts for venial sins and confession for mortal sins.

Yes, if you are Catholic. If you are Jewish, the Day of Atonement is the annual day of forgiveness, replete with prayers, fasting, group confession, and penance. It is biblical. And it is an eternal commandment for the Jewish people to follow, among the 630 other commandments followed. Non-Jews are not required to observe the Day of Atonement, but benefit in an ancillary manner regardless.

In Judaism, the Day of Atonement is much more intense than any penitential services that we experience as Catholics. Our closest similarity might be our Good Friday services. In place of the Temple actions of the High Priest on Yom Kippur, the service mirrors the ritual functions in the form of prayer.

Fasting lasts the entire day. The main prayer service on Yom Kippur can last upwards of 3 hours or more. The whole week leading up to Yom Kippur are “Days of Awe” of repentance, prayer, amendment, and introspection. Perhaps only our monastic orders are comparable in devotion.

If you were raised a devout Jew, what would compel you to reduce your spirituality with a less rigorous liturgy or devotion, Christian or otherwise? Perhaps only a personal encounter with Christ would convert some non-believers.

 

[Catholicos]

I guess the real issue I have, given the history, is that the Church has had a long history of abuse towards the Jews. We should ask for their forgiveness and spend more time listening and learning from one another, and less time thinking we are so superior. A little charity and humility is in order.

That would be true, the Jews suffered during the Middle Ages, but again it would be foolish to look at the abuses in such a narrow scope. The entire story must be told, not bits and pieces, parsed to paint any side entirely positively or negatively. Now you’re saying the Church should apologize for all its sins, I don’t disagree with that because unlike almost every religion known to man, no faith confesses more sins than we do. When Popes and bishops speak for and defend Jewish interests , particularly during this time, the Middle Ages, the Jews have to acknowledge them, just as we’ve acknowledged Popes and saints who have painted Jews very negatively, as I already mentioned St. John Chrysostom

[The Church, in principle, never approved of compulsory baptism of Jews.]

Moreover no Christian shall presume to seize, imprison, wound, torture, mutilate, kill or inflict violence on them; furthermore no one shall presume, except by judicial action of the authorities of the country, to change the good customs in the land where they live for the purpose of taking their money or goods from them or from others.
The text of Pope Gregory’s Papal Bull decreed in 1272 is here: http://www.papalencyclicals.net/greg10/g10jprot.htm

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Now I think it would be fair for the Jews to explain some of their own history. Would you say the Jews had no role or involvement whatsoever in the Bolshevikism and the Bolshevik Revolution? Should this be ignored as just conspiracy theories?

 

[SAVINGRACE]

Read Pope Benedict’s book Jesus of Nazareth Holy Week. It’s got nothing to do with dual covenants. God has a separate plan and timeline for the Jews.

“Israel is in the hands of God, who will save it ‘as a whole’ at the proper time, when the number of Gentiles is full,” the pope writes. The historical duration of this “proper time,” Benedict says, cannot be calculated.

In terms of the proper Christian attitude in the meantime, Benedict approvingly quotes Cistercian abbess and Biblical writer Hildegard Brem: “The church must not concern herself with the conversion of the Jews, since she must wait for the time fixed for this by God.”

Although Benedict XVI stipulated in the first volume of his book that he writes as a private theologian rather than authoritatively as head of the Catholic church

 

[pnewton]

What about Nostra Aetate and the modern magisterial teachings about the Jewish people is so anathema to these traditionalists? I certainly don’t want to paint all traditionalists, such as the FSSP or Institute of the Christ the King Sovereign, in this manner. I’m just trying to see if my own anecdotal experience is representative.

I think your question has been well answered here. There is another thread in which a very anti-Semitic site was linked for its position on the Church post-Vatican II. Then you have the posts in this thread. There is also the unfortunate case of Richard Williamson, a former bishop with the SSPX, then after expulsion over anti-Semitism and disobedience in regard to anti-Semitism, the head of the Catholic Resistance, the head of the SSPX Resistance. He has attracted a following of like minded traditionalists. So there is without doubt a contingent of anti-Semitism among Catholic Traditionalists. Some may be founded more in doctrinal error, but it still exists.

More surprising, is that the SPLC actually got this right.

On the other hand, or the other side, progressive Catholics have to live with the stigma of groups like Catholics for Choice and Catholic Womenpriests.

We all live with the stigma of scandal caused by moral failures, so no one should be too judgmental of progressives, traditionalists, or just us run of the mill Catholics.

 

[edtaylor51]

I’d say it extends beyond traditional Catholicism. My wife converted to reform Judaism recently after being raised non-religious. Our kids are Catholic, as she agreed to raise them Catholic when we got married. No issues there. Not to sound coarse, but I’m not interested in a lecture from anyone about any of this, I’m stating facts to add to the conversation about Catholicism and antisemitism.

Our kids go to our parish school. Let me start by saying a vast majority of people have been supportive once they learn she converted, because most people aren’t jerks. There are, however, people who make comments under their breath, or will shoot a dirty look at her Star of David necklace, or make comments around high holidays. Our priest (who we are not particularly close to, not for any specific reason, we just aren’t) gave a homily not long ago that had some borderline antisemitic comments. We did speak with him about it, and he agreed his comments were unnecessary and didn’t help anyone to understand that weeks readings or Gospel. So it exists, even subtly, at all levels of Catholicism and Christianity as a whole. Subtle antisemitism is dangerous too, as it leads to stereotypes, misunderstandings, resentment, etc.

As far as the Talmud is concerned, Judaism fosters and encourages debate, so the commentary contained within includes things which the majority do not agree with. Keep that in mind. There is no one right way to be Jewish, no one set of beliefs that make one Jewish. That’s not to excuse anything in the Talmud, there’s some awful stuff in there. Not unlike our own history, just google “blood libel”. Jews and Christians alike should learn from our ancestors mistakes and not repeat them.

 

[StGerardMajella]

Would you say the Jews had no role or involvement whatsoever in the Bolshevikism and the Bolshevik Revolution? Should this be ignored as just conspiracy theories?

The Communists heavily persecuted the religious, Jews and Christians alike. Just because your surname indicates your ethnic background doesn’t correlate that you are a believer. I have only been referring to devout, holy Jews, not to atheists.