Is there a protestant conspiracy on this site

[imroc]

jdc1084:

I’m still learning more about the Catholic church and really, I think it’s all very interesting. This forum has really helped me out a lot. But to be honest, there are things that I do still disagree with concerning the Catholic Church. There are some things that Catholics believe and things that yall have said that I just can’t find any Biblical backing for and I want to get to the root of it as best I can. After all, I’m no expert theologian; there may be something I have overlooked and I want to make sure I’ve got all the facts straight. But I’ll save all that for another discussion. God bless.

Good for you jdc! Inquiry is great for the soul. Even though you are protestant and are here to find out what the Church truly believes, I bet you found some very eye opening beliefs. The holy Spirit is guiding you in your life and I firmly believe that if you submit yourself FULLY to his will and accept whatever comes in your path, even though the direction is not what you thought or intended, you’ll feel very free. Even though protestantism seems very free hearted and free loving and joyous, there’s a certain freedom that comes with catholicism. I’ll never forget the feeling of performing the sign of the cross for the first time, something that I wished to do for years! I’ll never forget how relieving my first confession was! WOW! One can almost feel angelic after confession because of the burden being lifted like a ball and chain, you feel so light after dumping the load you can nearly float like an angel! Kneeling! I can think of how restricted I was when I didn’t kneel when catholic family members of mine knelt during Mass (my baptist mom wouldn’t let me). And last but not least, the hunger of 10 years that I felt for the Eucharist. Yes, the last 10 years of my life have been attending Mass regularly without recieving communion! The relieve and exhilarting feeling of partaking in the sacrafice of our Lord and his most beautiful gift to us! But to be honest, when you can accept the fact that the Church is nearly 400 years older than the Bible and 1500 years older than the Bible you follow, you’ll find the truth. I ask you to read into the early Church Fathers. Read far back and into writings of even 1st century Fathers! THEN you’ll begin to “feel” something and there doesn’t even have to be explosive preaching with a rhythmic piano playing! You will then realize that you will forget about “biblical backing” because the bible didn’t even exist back then! Wow, what a concept! The gifts that the Church gives us are beautiful and it’s all handed down from Christ and his Apostles, don’t miss out on the fullness of the faith! It’s much clearer when you step back and look at the WHOLE picture.

 

[tdandh26]

Ok, thank you all for answering my question. I find it interesting how many people like to take a certain sentence out of a much larger response and use it as if it were all that was said.??? Wow I have seen that tactic before. Im learning, so instead of reading the Bible as a whole we should break it apart into segments then create our own understanding and create our own religion. Also I guess I could create different sect with different views since scripture could be interpreted any whay I like at that point eh. Then just for good measure, attack the Catholic Church which is the only Christian Church that actually dates back to the time of the apostles. All the while during my attack acting like I am not call Jesus a liar since He did say and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. hmmmm boy i could get rich that way. NAH I think ill stick with the interpretation the unchanging Church of Christ. But on a serious note I wish people would REALLY take a look at how earily christians worshipped. One more thing I was addressed with the faith alone doctrine today and I realized that when people quote from the letters of the Bible, what they are actually doing is the exact thing which Paul himself forbade in that if anyone teaches a doctrine that is different from that of Jesus then let that man be anathama. Wow St. Paul sure seems to me like a lot of Christians these days are pitting you against Christ.

 

[imroc]

To JDC!

Oh! and by the way, I hope I can speak on behalf of all of us and pray for you. I believe that when Jesus talked so fervently about his body and blood, bread and wine that he truly gave it freely for our sins through that sacrifice. I also believe that through this, he also asked us to turn away from nationalism, pride, peer pressure and social ties. We are to expect at least some of these when we come to accept the Eucharist as the body, blood, soul and divinity. Why else did people leave him when he made this statement? Jews surely couldn’t partake in blood, but Jesus told them (loosely quoted), “unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life…”. He’s telling you to forget your ties and follow the cup of the New Covenant.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Singinbeauty:

I think you took something personally that was not intended to be taken personally. If you could turn that switch off, I think you’d realize that the alphabet soup of denominations (132,000 varieties of Protestants in America alone) where we never talk to each other, pray for each other or pray with each other is scandalous and grieves our Lord terribly, while causing many who might otherwise believe to never consider the claims of our Lord, because of the way we fight and argue.

And yes, I think you’d come to the same conclusion many of us have, that the only author of all of this can be the Devil himself. Can you tell me who else would benefit from all this infighting and lack of basic Christian charity?

Singinbeauty:

Wow, I do not know quite what to do with this statement… On one hand my first reaction is to be stunned and kind of offended because what I read into this statement is that protestants are idiots led astray and being used as pawns in Satan’s plan to steal souls from God. We long to be near God and the thought that we are in ‘cahoots’ whether intentional or not with Satan is something I never want attached to me. How can Satan be using a protestant church to lead people astray when all it does is worship God and long to know Him on a deeper level? The only conspiriters are those who attack God’s children by attacking their heart and soul worship of God and telling them that while they seek God and worship only Him in their minds they are actually pawns of Satan and don’t know God at all.

I don’t think there’s a Catholic here who would question your love and devotion towards God, or who would claim that you’re “pawns of Satan” or question the reality of your relationship with God. Vatican II purposefully used the term “Seperated Brethren” to denote the separation caused by the Reformation and subsequent events.

I’m sorry, but I’ve seen little from many Protestants to reciprocate that good will. In fact, last week, I listened to one claim that the Catholic Church was invented by Constantine and that it didn’t exist before the 4th Century. I produced 2 documents and 2 Sub-Apostolic Church Fathers who all claimed the Catholic Church existed within the first Century after Jesus’ death - she quibbled over the dates!

I’ve listened to others call the Roman Catholic Church the “Whore of Babylon” and the Pope “The AntiChrist”.

Andrew_11 never meant what he said to be taken in the way you took it. I can only ask you to consider the alternative explanation I’ve profided and ask if you wouldn’t agree that that’s a scandal and the work of Satan.

Singinbeauty:

Do ALL catholics think protestants are idiots or so naive?

NO.

But, since 99% of the name calling comes from Protestants to Catholics, would you rather I ask the same question of you? or, Would you rather try to do as I’ve asked above, “being slow to anger and slow to speak,” and showing the patience that charity would show.

I seem to recall the HIGHWAY MISSIONARY SOCIETY (Ever hear of “Servant”?) calling that “Covering his nakedness with grace”.

Singinbeauty:

On the other hand I remember those who spat on Jesus and His followers. Telling them that they were of Satan and/or evil. Who told them that what they believed about their relationship with God was wrong and disloyal to the very Father they worshipped. Who told them that Christ was evil and long to lead God’s children astray rather than bring them closer. I remember these people who knew in their hearts that they were right and I humbly pray that I stick to the path that God has set me on and that I would follow Him as closely and without fear that the apostles and disciples did so long ago. Thank you for reminding me of the struggles and that even though I do not face half of the pain and danger that those who live in other countries do or that the followers of Jesus faced all those years ago I know that I am on the path that God has designated for me and I need to keep my eyes on Him.

Singinbeauty, as I said, I don’t think that any of the Catholics here would call you “Evil”. By the same token, I don’t think there’s a Catholic here who hasn’t been called evil or listened to a Protestant preacher of some sort call his Church “Evil”.

I strongly suggest you leave this point alone as Catholics have been far more often wronged and calumnized than the other way around.

And, since there are 132,000 varieties of Protestant, all teaching different doctrines from the same Scriptures, while the Catholic church teaches the same Doctrine the Apostles and the Early Church Fathers did, is there a chance that you just might be wrong? and That, therefore, you might need a “Midcourse Correction”?

In Christ, Michael

 

[NotWorthy]

Singinbeauty:

But IF you are going to claim that Satan can use protestant churches you have to agree that he also uses the catholic church. We cannot forget the things that the catholic church has done in the past (at least her members) and this has furthered Satans plans so just as there may be protestant people being used by Satan there are also catholic people he uses… Just a thought…

I can’t argue with you on that (at least her members).

Notworthy

 

[asteroid]

In the last few posts on this thread I’ve read the following:

1. There are 33,000 denominations (divisions in the church)
2. There are 132, 000 varieties of Protestant. And that’s just in America.

Please, what is the source for these numbers?

Do you really think them to be accurate?

The normal original source (with a guessed extra number per year since then) is the World Christian Encyclopedia. But the list there doesn’t claim thousands of denominations as we would call them - it even contains over 200 “denominations” that we know are all part of the Catholic Church.

More than one denomination is too many but can’t we all start to use some accurate figures instead of ones that may bring us ridicule? Please.

re 132,000 denominations in America. Given a 2005 population of about 295 million, 52% of whom claim Protestant adherence (2001 Aris Study), this gives the average size of a demonination as 1162 people. Of the 153.4 million Protestants, 4.87 million are Episcopalian, 47.7 millilon are Baptist, 20 million are Methodist, 13.5 million Lutheran, and 5.5 million Presbyterian. This leaves about 47.5 million Protestants in just under 132,000 denominations. An average (arithmetic mean) denomination size of 360. If you take into account all the other large denominations, and all the people who call themselves as some denomination but don’t actually go to church, the average size drops rather a lot more. Silly isn’t it? The 132,000 denominations in America statistic I keep hearing is just wrong.

 

[Church_Militant]

I hope that most of you know me well enough that you’ll take this post the way I mean it.

There is not a non-Catholic conspiracy on the CAF.
However, if you ask a question and DON’T want non-Catholic (name removed by moderator)ut on that thread, all you have to do is say so in the thread title (Catholic (name removed by moderator)ut Only) and I feel sure that everyone will respect your wishes and if someone sees such a thread and wants to open it to everyone, all they gotta say in the title is something like (Open Discussion) to remove all doubt. I have seen forums where there have been threads that said “Private Debate” and seem to have done just fine. If you don’t specify otherwise, you can rest assured that everyone will feel free to dive right in. I sure would…

That said, there ARE those who come in here with a definite agenda to evangelize Catholics out of the faith, and that winds me up about as tight as it gets, for many reasons.

There are NEVER any points for name calling. That’s just wrong, so just don’t.

I do not believe that there are non-Catholics on here posing as Catholics to mess with people, though if I saw someone that made me wonder, I’d report 'em to the Mods in a flash. That sort of tactic is outright non-Christian because it involves deception. (I did see that happen on an anti-Catholic forum that I was on until we Catholics decided to boycott them.) I DO think that every member should be as specific as possible in his religious affliation in their profile. “N/A” just doesn’t cut it… I think some kind of point of reference is needed.

It seems to me most of the questions seem to really want a genuine Catholic answer that will lead them to truth, but just when one seems close to doing just that someone tosses in a lie that cannot be contradicted without writing a short dissertation to explain why the lie is a lie. And to top that off just when one lie is dispelled 3 more or tossed into the mix.

That is called posting off-topic and hi-jacking a thread. Best answer: Ignore the statements and tell them to open their own thread if they want to get into that. Some people don’t mean to. They just fail to think before they post.

I know what you mean about the short dissertations… and that’s why I often use the CA Library Articles and the articles from This Rock to supply info that I don’t really need to post myself. That’s what they’re there for, and (IMHO) are a badly neglected resource. If someone just wants info…that should pretty much set 'em straight, and if they wanna debate it…well it’s ON from there. :irish1:

Conspiracy? Nah! Just a buncha crazy humans being just exactly that…human.
Pax tecum,

 

[Sherlock]

Great post, Church Militant! Good points one and all. Merry Christmas to you and yours!

 

[Traditional_Ang]

asteroid:

In the last few posts on this thread I’ve read the following:

1. There are 33,000 denominations (divisions in the church)
2. There are 132, 000 varieties of Protestant. And that’s just in America.

Please, what is the source for these numbers?

Do you really think them to be accurate?

The normal original source (with a guessed extra number per year since then) is the World Christian Encyclopedia. But the list there doesn’t claim thousands of denominations as we would call them - it even contains over 200 “denominations” that we know are all part of the Catholic Church.

More than one denomination is too many but can’t we all start to use some accurate figures instead of ones that may bring us ridicule? Please.

re 132,000 denominations in America. Given a 2005 population of about 295 million, 52% of whom claim Protestant adherence (2001 Aris Study), this gives the average size of a demonination as 1162 people. Of the 153.4 million Protestants, 4.87 million are Episcopalian, 47.7 millilon are Baptist, 20 million are Methodist, 13.5 million Lutheran, and 5.5 million Presbyterian. This leaves about 47.5 million Protestants in just under 132,000 denominations. An average (arithmetic mean) denomination size of 360. If you take into account all the other large denominations, and all the people who call themselves as some denomination but don’t actually go to church, the average size drops rather a lot more. Silly isn’t it? The 132,000 denominations in America statistic I keep hearing is just wrong.

Asteriod:

I was quoting someone who was quoting our friends from the US bureau of Census. They count everything - “Snakehandlers” “Branch-Dividians Version 2”, "White Gospel Preachers, Everything. You have small Churches with 6 members and one preacher, and they claim to be the correct something or other - I’m sorry to say that a couple of those groups are “Continuing Anglicans”.

The problem is, that we have huge swaths of Christians who go to separate Churches every Sunday and never talk to each other, pray for each other or pray with each other, and often call the largest of the groups "evil’ and “the Whore of Babylon” and say that it’s members are “idol worshippers” who are “going to hell”.

I’m sorry if I used figures that a friend of mine exaggerated in order to get my attention. And I’m sorry that I didn’t approach those figures with my usual caution and double check them to insure their accuracy, but using an exaggerated figure of 132,000 (or 33,000 in the case of another poster) to describe the obscenity that’s happened in Christianity is like jaywalking to the murder of what I’ve just described above, what our Lord prayed would never happen and the scandal that causes people to disbelieve in the Gospel and it’s power to transform lives.

So, you’re welcome to quibble over the figures - Go ahead, be my guest…

Or, you can look at our Lord as he weeps over Christians who haven’t a kind word to say to each other, can’t bring themselves to pray for each other, and would rather die than be caught praying with each other. And, maybe you could ask Him what we can do to stop this useless bickering.

Shared Communion: Brother Roger’s death spotlights perennial issue
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0504883.htm

He Was My Pope, Too
christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/114/16.0.html

An Unnecessary and Untoward Controversy
catholiceducation.org/articles/media/me0051.html

The point isn’t the figures - The number of Denominations, and the varietiy of subdenominations is well known to our Lord. The point is how we treat each other, and how we respond to each other. Nonbelievers do read these boards, and I would hope they would see at least some of what attracted the the Pegans to the Church in the 1st few Centuries of the Church’s existence.

In Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

asteroid:

In the last few posts on this thread I’ve read the following:

1. There are 33,000 denominations (divisions in the church)
2. There are 132, 000 varieties of Protestant. And that’s just in America.

Please, what is the source for these numbers?

Do you really think them to be accurate?

The normal original source (with a guessed extra number per year since then) is the World Christian Encyclopedia. But the list there doesn’t claim thousands of denominations as we would call them - it even contains over 200 “denominations” that we know are all part of the Catholic Church.

More than one denomination is too many but can’t we all start to use some accurate figures instead of ones that may bring us ridicule? Please.

re 132,000 denominations in America. Given a 2005 population of about 295 million, 52% of whom claim Protestant adherence (2001 Aris Study), this gives the average size of a demonination as 1162 people. Of the 153.4 million Protestants, 4.87 million are Episcopalian, 47.7 millilon are Baptist, 20 million are Methodist, 13.5 million Lutheran, and 5.5 million Presbyterian. This leaves about 47.5 million Protestants in just under 132,000 denominations. An average (arithmetic mean) denomination size of 360. If you take into account all the other large denominations, and all the people who call themselves as some denomination but don’t actually go to church, the average size drops rather a lot more. Silly isn’t it? The 132,000 denominations in America statistic I keep hearing is just wrong.

Asteroid:

I was given the figure of 132,000 by someone who claimed he was using our good friends from the US Bureau of Census. I realize that he probably was pulling my leg in order to get my attention, but… They count everything - All the varieties of “Snakehandlers”, the “Branch Dividians” (there still is a small group - They came from the 7th Day Adventists), the Alphabet Soup of “Continuing Anglicans” (including one 150 member congregation headed by a Bishop who has no juridiction other than the parish), the various brands of Baptists (they will separate over almost ANYTHING).

You would never believe the number of Churches that claim the be the “Real” whatever that are 40 or 50 members and one preacher pounding a pulpit. Or, the various brands of “Non-Denominational” Churches (Saddleback, Calvery Chapel, etc.).

And, The Aris Study lumped various brands of Lutherans, Episcopalians (Many of whom are “Continuing Anglicans” of one sort of the other or some offshoot of ECUSA from before 1976), Methodists (Ever hear of the “Methodist Episcopal Church”?), Presbyterians (At least 9 including the PCUSA), and Baptists (there are at least 3 different Mainline Baptist Denominations and maybe 100 smaller Anabaptists affiliations), making these groups seem homogenous when they’re not.

According to ECUSA, they have 2.7 million members as of 2001. Using Aris’ figures, that leaves some 2.17 million "Episcpalians scattered between the various “Continuing Anglican Jurisdictions” and the Episcopal Churches that split off from ECUSA before 1976 (total of almost 75 different Churches - The Anglicans didn’t know when to stop splitting once they started)

132,000 might be for the total number of sects worldwide, and my friend just might have crossed them up… But 33,000 can’t be all that far of the mark when you think of all the different groups…

When I introduced my figures, I was dealing with the SQUABBLING here and elsewhere, and the fact that many Christians in these differing groups never talk to each other, pray for each or pray with each other.

Now, I’m sorry if the number’s inaccurate, but I’m sure it grieves our Lord far more that huge swaths of Christians go to their Churches each Sunday morning oblivious to the existence of other Christians, never wanting to talk to or pray for or with those other Christians or wanting to have anything to do with them at all. It also must cause Him to weep that many of these can only express what unity they do have by calling most of His believers “evil idol worshippers” and saying they are members of “the Whore of Babylon”.

And, then we wonder why our conversation is such that an unbeliever would be hard-pressed to see that which attracted Pegans to the Early Church.

That’s my Ingflation adjusted $.25 worth.

In Christ, Michael

 

[imroc]

asteroid:

In the last few posts on this thread I’ve read the following:

1. There are 33,000 denominations (divisions in the church)
2. There are 132, 000 varieties of Protestant. And that’s just in America.

Please, what is the source for these numbers?

…

honestly I don’t know where I got that statistic. And I use the term denomination rather loosley when I speak of it. But to be truly honest with you, I’d be just as concerned if there were just 1000 or even 100 different protestant denominations (loosely termed). The fact that the protestant belief system has splintered and keeps splintering is disturbing to say the least. I guess the true problem was even when Luther noted it. Oops…

 

[Andrew_11]

I am sorry that I have been unable to get online in the last few days because it appears that my previous post on this thread hit a few nerves (which I anticipated it would). I do not believe protestants are idiots or pawns of the devil. But I do believe Martin Luther was an idiot and a pawn of the devil. I have nothing against protestants, but I have alot against protestantism. Protestantism was one of Lucifer’s cleverest inventions. Protestantism prevents people from expierencing Christ in the Eucharist, and teaches them false doctrines. I knew one protestant who was extremely knowlegable and had greater faith in God than myself and most people that I know, but he thought it was ok if he sinned because “his sins were covered by the blood of Christ”. He didnt think sinning had anything to do with his salvation.

 

[deb1]

Alfie:

As a Protestant I feel that a lot of the posts on this forum are not authentic. There are too many posts by so called ex-Protestants.I feel that you have people that are delibertly making up the posts to try to convince Evangelicals that the majority of Protestants are finally seeing the light and coming back to the Roman church. When I watch EWTN there are countless numbers of these so-called ex-Protestants on various programs bemoaning how they wasted all their time in Evangelical churches. Catholic programs now use Protestant words like “born again” to mislead minimal Protestants to think that the Catholic definition of “being born again” is equal to the Protestant equivalent. I get the feeling that it is all one great big propaganda machine. The Catholic church fears Evangelicals more than any other force on earth. I do not believe that Evangelicals were ever asked to join Pope John Paul when he met with various religious leaders. A person who has truly been “born again” is never going to join the Catholic church. However the Bible does say that in the last days that even “the Elect” would be deceived and we Evangelicals are “the Elect” so it is possible I suppose that some could be deceived by “seducing spirits”.

Well, I promise you I am an exProtestant. I have attended Baptist Churches my whole life. In fact the last one that I attended was very fundamentalist. There is much about Protestants that I still respect, their sincerity and zeal is to be admired.

Isn’t Billie Graham an evangelical? He met with Pope John Paul.

I am not certain what you mean by seducing spirits. You don’t mean the Catholic church do you?

 

[deb1]

Singinbeauty:

Oh how a thread like this just tugs at my heart… It makes me tear up just thinking about how the children of God bicker and fight about who is right and who is wrong even though they are not the ones to even come close to that decision. Or how they shove at each other or beat each other in the name of who Daddy loves the best. We should not have the ‘my religion can beat up your religion’ type of mindset but we do. WE make snide remarks and say sarcastic hurtful things like ‘you actually don’t love God as much as I do because I listen to Him and you don’t’. Why do we all, protestant and catholic, have the INSANE need to be right all the time and then bash it over the opposite side’s head? Why do we even have to consider ourselves at opposite sides anyway? How do any of us expect to make any head way with ANYONE by telling them they are stupid or that their very being and everything they know to be truth is WRONG? It doesn’t work when it is done to you, as is obvious with this thread, so why is it ok for you to go do it to someone else?

Think of the wonderful things we can do in the name of Christ if we just turn to eachother and LOVE like Christ commanded and leave the convincing of what path is right to Christ Himself.

You are probably a very sweet person. I think that you are correct in that we need to be careful not to be snide or sarcastic. Hopefully I have never come across that way. It is important to be charitable, but it isn’t always easy.

But this forum is not for everyone. I adore it because of the vigerous debating. Many of the posters, both Catholic and Protestant, are well educated in their beliefs and are able to carry on a good discussion with one another. I like the freedom these forums offer to those who want to discuss religious beliefs and it is wonderful that we have visitors that are atheists, Buddhists, Wiccans etc.

Others might find the give and take troubling. It does get heated sometimes during these debates.

As far as loving one another…believing that my fellow Christian is wrong is not a sign that I don’t love him or even dislike him. It is merely a sign that I disagree with him.

 

[Anonymous_1]

there is too much relativism among protestant denominations! Truth cannot be contradictory yet one denomination to the next can’t concur on some critical issues…
In my pursuit of truth, this is the dichotomy i arrived at: Either there is no Church united in Baptism, faith, mind, Love and Spirit, or that Church is the Roman Catholic Church. Historically it is the only one to have existed for 2005 years. And look at the writings of the early Church Fathers to find what the early Church believed about things like Baptism and Holy Eucharist. It seems the Catholic Church bears the four marks of authenticity: one, holy, catholic and apostolic.

17But now when I mention this next issue, I cannot praise you. For it sounds as if more harm than good is done when you meet together. 18First of all, I hear that there are divisions among you when you meet as a church, and to some extent I believe it. 19But, of course, there must be divisions among you so that those of you who are right will be recognized!

1 Corinth. 11

Peace, Grace, Mercy, Blessing, and Understanding through Christ to all…
~YIC Matt

ps. Jesus said He is the Truth. If Christians are to claim that Jesus is the Truth, the Absolute Truth, in the face of post-modernists and relativists screaming intolerance, why should Catholic Christians be be accused of being intolerant for proclaiming in sincere love, that the Catholic Church is the True Church that Christ left us?

 

[abcdefg]

I haven’t visited apologetics forum for a long time. but there’re quite some Protestant bashings instead of bashing Protestants in the news forum.

If you believe in God’s creation of man, you’re a fundamentalist
If you believe Jews should have Israel, you’re a fundamentalist
etc.

 

[jbenal]

anthony flavell:

alfie

I agree with you, the Church is afraid of “evangelicals”, it truly afraid that warped concepts of Christianity are defiling the true teachings of Christ. It is afraid that every day evangelicals are drawing naïve people away from the true word of God in favor of an “easier” less conformist and more liberal concept of Christianity, that is dependant upon an individuals opinions and interpretation rather than those of Christ and the Apostles.

In Christ
Anthony

I don’t know if “afraid” is the right word, since upon Peter, Christ built his church that not even the gates of hell will prevail against it. Therefore, what is there to be afraid of? However, there is plenty of room for genuine concern regarding the protestant movement.

Most protestants have anti-Catholicism as the foundation of their own beliefs. I really laugh when I see them use Scripture as a crutch for their own belief system (the examples are way too numerous to mention here).

What’s really scary to me is the way protestants outright attack the Catholic Church in the name of “evangelization” and the zeal in which they do so. If you want some really disturbing reading, check out this site:

bereanbeacon.org/

It pains me to see this former priest attack the Church in the manner he does. Personally, I think he’s done more to hurt the Church than any pedophile priest or related scandal over the past several years. While I do not condone their actions, those priests were mentally ill and deserve our compassion.

This guy, Richard Bennett, is in all out attack on the Church. Unfortunately, the berean movement is very, very active in my area (Lincoln, Nebraska). I pray for my kids daily so that they will not fall into their traps. Fortunately, the Catholic Diocese is also very active. While I sometimes wish for a more “eye for an eye” approach from my own priests regarding bereans and other evangelicals, I have faith that the Holy Spirit is with them and guiding them along the best approach for each of us and the Church as a whole.

 

[Alfie]

mastda:

Alfie, I was truly “Born Again” in 1991, I went forward in a coliseum of about 80,000 people. I was part of a strong evangelical protestant group who for the first 2 years of getting to know them all they did was put down Catholics and any other mainline churches. For the next few years I looked for every opportunity to put down catholics and catholicism and convert them as I was totally convinced these people were going to hell. I dont want to get into my story here as it is very similar to the stories of most reverts and catholics on this forum but I had a big problem in 1998. It first started when I was introduced to the Toronto Airport Fellowship and people like Rodney Howard Brown et all. Totally confused I started listening to Hank Henegraff and I was so confused as everything Hank said made sense but everything he said was contrary to what I had been taught for years. I was confused over these points 1) Are we Saved? Can you lose your salvation? 2) How can a good person who never became “born again” but attended a mainline church die and go to hell and a murderer or a rapist who accepts Jesus in prison go to heaven? 3) If Jesus left us a church, which church? 4)Why would Jesus Die and leave all His people in total confusion 5) Why can anyone start preaching and interpreting the bible without any credentials?

The thing that really bothered me though was after 10 years as a protestant and 5 of them in the same church, the church really had not grown in proportion to the amount of people saved every week. We had a revolving door as it seemed we can get them there but we could not get them to stay. I also noticed that many protestant evangelical churches really don’t convert the lost but the try to get people from mainline churches to their churches. It really is a form of recycling and not growth at all. That could be a general statement but it is my opinion only based on what I had seen. So the statements of “we are growing” should of really said "we are stealing from the Anglicans,United,Presbyterians and Lutherans.

To make a very long story short, I started in a quest to answer these questions and I spent hours and hours and dollars and dollars researching. Open minded and not even remotely thinking that the answers would be in the Catholic Faith, everything I read, heard, and watched pointed at the Roman Catholic Church.

At the begining of your post you stated that you were saved in 1991 and yet you believe you were led to become a Catholic. Why? If you truly were saved in 1991 then you can’t be any more saved than you are this very moment. What I got from reading your post is that evidently you do not believe that it is by grace that we are saved? This is how the Reformation started over the concept of grace versus works. No matter what you think the Catholic Church says it is a system that is based on good works. For example…you go to mass and that earns you some points in grace to get to heaven.

You have simply been blinded by a seducing spirit. This is just a form of pride. Man thinks he has to help God to get himself into heaven. He adds meaningless rituals that he thinks will impress God and it does not. That is what the Jews did. When they were given the ten commandments…what did they do with them they added over a hundred extra man-made laws to the commandments. If ritual were that important then the Jews would all be in heaven. You are merely trying to work your way to heaven by preforming meaningless ritual. You think that makes you more holy before God and it doesn’t.

Why is it that so many people are saved in the various Protestant churches if they don’t have the truth? When it comes to the many different Protestant churches not being united into one big church this is nothing new. It was the same way in the Apostle Paul’s time when he went to the various churchs to speak. They were bickering amongst themselves.

You say that you could not understand how a rapist or a murderer could repent and go to heaven. That tells me that you could not have been saved in 1991 or you would understand the concept of grace. The thief on the cross was taken to Heaven. It also tells me that you believe in the Catholic system that sin is either venial or mortal and there is no such thing as a division of sin in the Bible. People who are considered good moral people in our society still need a savior or they will go to hell. The Bible says that our good works are like filthy rags before God… but Jesus was perfect and never commited a sin… so he is perfection and any little sin is an offense to God because of his sinlessness. He is what our moral standard is… not a rapist or murderer.

The only way a person can be Born again is if the Holy Spirit convicts him of his sins which then causes that person to repent and turn from sin. He also asks Jesus to come into his heart to be his Lord and Savior.

 

[Alfie]

tdandh26:

I would submit to you that if that so called born again person began to study the history of Christianity he would convert to Catholosism. I could go as far as to say that once a person begins to study history and starts finding out the things he feared his ego will be the first thing to respond. But, if that person continues his search then satan will attempt to dissuade him. For without a doubt satan’s greatest fear is people returning faithfully to the very sacrements which caused him the greatest torments immediately following Christs death on the cross. Satan aint stupid and he full well knows where salvation lies.

What history? The only history that I have to know is that God is the alpha and the omega of the universe and that the Old Testament is a history of the Jews. The most important thing about the Old Testament is that it prophesises the coming of Jesus. The New Testament is the fullfillment of that prediction and it tells people all they need to know to be saved to go to Heaven. If anyone wants to know how to be saved from hell then he should begin by reading the book of Romans.

 

[Church_Militant]

Alfie:

What history? The only history that I have to know is that God is the alpha and the omega of the universe and that the Old Testament is a history of the Jews. The most important thing about the Old Testament is that it prophesises the coming of Jesus. The New Testament is the fullfillment of that prediction and it tells people all they need to know to be saved to go to Heaven. If anyone wants to know how to be saved from hell then he should begin by reading the book of Romans.

Really???

So none of the people who gave their lives for the faith and wrote down for us what they believed and what they preached matter at all. We can gain no inspiration from them and no insight into the Word of God from reading what they wrote? I suppose that your personal Bible has no commentary in it at all right? Nor do you scrawl notes on what you think passages mean in the margin of it do you?

Let’s see here: Do you know anything about what happened to the 12 apostles after Pentecost? Where did they go and what did they do and who did they go with and what did they preach and when, where, and how did they die?

The last apostle to die was St. John in about 100. Two of his close friends and disciples carried on the gospel and became bishops of churches. Their names were Polycarp and Ignatius of Antioch. What do you know about them? Nothing! (Great Scott! ) Both these men gave their lives for the faith, one was burned alive and the other thrown to wild animals. Let me show you something that Ignatius wrote to the church at Smyrna just about 7 years after the death of St. John in his Letter to the Church at Smyrna

CHAP. VII.–LET US STAND ALOOF FROM SUCH HERETICS.

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer,(7) because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death(11) in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect,(13) that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that ye should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of(15) them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion[of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved.(16) But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.

and then again:

CHAP. VIII.–LET NOTHING BE DONE WITHOUT THE BISHOP.

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out[through their office] the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper(18) Eucharist, which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.

Now if these men were discipled by St. John, were they likely to have got all this wrong from the mouth of the same apostle who wrote his gospel, letters, and Revelation?

Polycarp told his executioners that he’d been a Christian for 86 years and wouldn’t deny his Lord now just to escape some temporary flames. He was 86 years old, which means that he was baptized as an infant, but a lot of people who came along about 500 years ago will tell you that that was never the case in the New Testament or the early church, but since you haven’t looked into these things for yourself and have taken someone else’s word on it all, you believe what they tell you and think that we Catholics are wrong. I’d say you need to have a careful study for yourself my friend, so that you can be sure that you are “approved unto God …rightly dividing the word of truth”.

There’s no Protestant conspiracy here on CAF, just some folks who haven’t got all the facts (yet).
Pax vobiscum,