Is there a real chance of communion between the Catholic Church and the orthodox?

[Michael16]

@ziapueblo and @George720,

I take it Orthodox don’t sit or kneel in Divine Liturgy?

 

[George720]

One can not defy “through the Son” as professed by Church Fathers… and Greeks certainly did not.

The Latin Churches were beginning to use the Filioque in their Churches in the East, and were shut down in this practice by the EOC… This did not mean anything at all concerning the ekonomia of the Spirit being sent by the Son… The Filioque does not belong in the Creed, however it is understood theologically…

Constantinople changes Creed, all is well because Emperor supports it and West views jt as legitimate. When West does the same, East argues they have no authority to do so…

The truth is that all Churches are forbidden from adding to or subtracting so much as even one word from the Creed by Church Canon… Rome Herself accepted this Canon… Then reversed Herself with the Arians, using the Creed to overcome them and their heresy, thus abandoning the Creed as a unifier of the Church and turning it into a weapon to combat heresy by changing it against the Canon forbidding changing it…

Creed exists mostly to fight heresies from misinformation.

Not true - The Creed was embraced that we all confess the One True Faith with one accord… The Latin Church violated this understanding…

It was not sole reason, neither main one. Bishop Kallistos Ware dismissed it as matter of semantics. Earlier in his life he considered it an issue but changed his mind over research.

I suspect he desired reconciliation and became a peacemaker…

St. Paul says reason is important and men should use it to strengthen faith… logic isn’t necessarily worthless in theology.

Indeed so, yet the Faith is revealed, not deduced…

geo

 

[babochka]

@ziapueblo and @George720,

I take it Orthodox don’t sit or kneel in Divine Liturgy?

The Greeks do.

 

[George720]

There’s two ways I can see how this question may be resolved.

1: Jesus never had concupiscence but still was possible to be tempted; like how He was tempted by the devil in the desert and how Adam and Eve were tempted in the Garden. Essentially, His human nature was born Immaculate from His Mother and perfected by His Divinity.

2: His human nature was fallen like ours and was perfected by His divine nature. Human nature redeemed by Christ in the flesh.

Either way, Christ remained sinless and fulfilled the Law perfectly and thus was the perfect Victim to reconcile us to the Father.

For my own money, I’ll go with @Margaret_Ann. Jesus is the Son of God and has two perfect natures: the human and the divine.

Otherwise, it requires Jesus to have two antithetical natures that would war against each other and we have no evidence of such a conflict in Sacred Scripture.

Jesus did take on FALLEN human nature…
He was fully tempted in all things human…
He did not sin in anything human…

And through this process He perfected human nature in His Own Body…
And suffered and was buried, and arose from the dead…
And ascended Bodily into the Heavens…
To sit at the Right Hand of the Most High…
Into which Risen Body we are all Baptized…

Because He overcame ALL temptation of sin in His Own Body…
We who are IN Him can also overcome all sin…

Now the only temptation He did not have…
Is the enhanced temptation of those who have sinned…
And I think I have made up fully for all those!!

geo

 

[RyanBlack]

I take it Orthodox don’t sit or kneel in Divine Liturgy?

Traditionally, no. The proper liturgical posture for the Eastern Orthodox in the Divine Liturgy is to stand. Kneeling is not considered appropriate because it is a penitential posture in the East. As far as sitting goes, it is understood that some people need to sit because of health reasons.

 

[George720]

@ziapueblo and @George720,

I take it Orthodox don’t sit or kneel in Divine Liturgy?

Pipe organs and pews and beeswax candle sales…

The Greeks have very questionable practices…

And they are thoroughly Orthodox!

Our Parish has benches around the walls of the Sanctuary for the elderly and the infirm, and other sissies who feel irresistibly drawn to gravitational dramas, like me… For the firm, for the upright, for those who live genuinely spiritual lives and scorn the weaknesses of the flesh - eg All those except me - sitting during Services does not happen… We kneel a lot, but just not on the Day of Resurrection!

geo

 

[ziapueblo]

I take it Orthodox don’t sit or kneel in Divine Liturgy?

The Greek Churches here have definitely been westernized with pews, kneelers and as I have heard, the dreaded pipe organs

The Greek Orthodox Church I attend has pews and kneelers (no organ thank the Lord. We do have a wonderful choir. Our cantor was one of the first to receive his certificate n Byzantine Chant while working on his theology degree at Holy Cross and he lived in Greece for a year studying more Byzantine chant). About half the people use the kneelers the other half remain standing. I prefer a more traditional Church like the OCA but my wife prefers the Greek Church. I like to keep peace in the house so she wins, for now

ZP

 

[babochka]

babochka:

@ziapueblo and @George720,

I take it Orthodox don’t sit or kneel in Divine Liturgy?

Pipe organs and pews and beeswax candle sales…

The Greeks have very questionable practices…

And they are thoroughly Orthodox!

Our Parish has benches around the walls of the Sanctuary for the elderly and the infirm, and other sissies who feel irresistibly drawn to gravitational dramas, like me… For the firm, for the upright, for those who live genuinely spiritual lives and scorn the weaknesses of the flesh - eg All those except me - sitting during Services does not happen… We kneel a lot, but just not on the Day of Resurrection!

geo

Romanian Orthodox also kneel on Sundays, as I recall.

Can We Kneel in Church on Sundays?

 

[steve-b]

Thank you for your contribution.

I trust that you’ve understood the idea I was attempting to communicate in my post (sloppily, maybe, but English is not my native tongue).

All I’m saying ,

People aren’t always correct in their views.

People’s ideas and positions have been, and do get, refuted.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

Note that there is a distinction of concupiscence in the moral sense ( concupiscentia prava ) and in the dogmatic sense (appetite whose motion anticipates the judgment of reason and perdures against the command of the will).

I’ve never heard of this distinction. I can’t see Our Lord having concupiscence period because He has a perfect human nature and He is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. He IS perfect in both natures because He is the Son of God.

Do you have a solid Catholic source or sources for this because my poor brain can’t comprehend it.

See Father John Hardon:

• Two kinds of concupiscence should be distinguished, the one dogmatic and the other moral.
• The gift of integrity is equivalent to exemption from concupiscence. It is called “integrity” because it effected a harmonious relation between flesh and spirit by completely subordinating man’s lower passions to his reason.

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma p. 174:

The sensual emotions appertain to the nature of mankind, and are therefore also natural to Christ. In consequence of His freedom from concupiscence, however, in Christ they could not be directed towards an unlawful object, could not arise in Him without His consent or against His Will, and could not achieve dominion over His Reason.

Summa Theologiae, III > Question 41. Christ’s temptation > Article 1. Whether it was becoming that Christ should be tempted?

Reply to Objection 3. As the Apostle says (Hebrews 4:15), Christ wished to be “tempted in all things, without sin.” Now temptation which comes from an enemy can be without sin: because it comes about by merely outward suggestion. But temptation which comes from the flesh cannot be without sin, because such a temptation is caused by pleasure and concupiscence; and, as Augustine says (De Civ. Dei xix), “it is not without sin that ‘the flesh desireth against the spirit.’” And hence Christ wished to be tempted by an enemy, but not by the flesh.

So, based upon which author is used St. Maximum, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, etc. there will be a different conception. What is a dogma of faith is that Christ’s human nature was passible, and that God is absolute Moral Goodness or Holiness (so cannot sin).

 

[Margaret_Ann]

2: His human nature was fallen like ours and was perfected by His divine nature. Human nature redeemed by Christ in the flesh.

He is the Son of God made man so He could not have a fallen human nature. If you look at the OT, the Paschal Lamb (or any other offerings but especially the Paschal Lamb) had to be without blemish. If there was any defect whatsoever you couldn’t offer it in the Temple. God deserved and still deserves the best that man had and has to offer.

Since as St. Paul says “…Christ our pasch has been sacrificed…” (1 Corinthians 15 if I remember right), He had to be (and still IS) perfect in every way. By extension, that’s why the Immaculate Conception of Our Lady was necessary. She had to be perfect in order to bear the Son of God.

I forget who wrote this but one Catholic author stated that all the privileges of Our Lady (especially Her Immaculate Conception, Perpetual Virginity, Dormition and Assumption into Heaven) are either in preparation for or a consequence of Her Divine Maternity. Everything re Our Lady hinges on the fact that She is Theotokos.

True trivia tidbit to impress your friends: The title of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic catechism Christ Our Pascha is taken from that verse of St. Paul.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Thanks for posting St. Thomas. That’s exactly what I tried to say (of course he beat me to it by a couple of centuries ).

 

[George720]

What is a dogma of faith is that Christ’s human nature was passible, and that God is absolute Moral Goodness or Holiness (so cannot sin).

Well, God is impassable, and Christ could not sin, yet He picked up where Adam left off - And Adam died - And we have inherited Adam’s death… So Christ took on our fallen human nature and was tempted in all our human weaknesses and did not sin… What He did not assume He did not heal… His Life healed our fallen human nature in Him… That he was tempted by His flesh goes without saying… I shudder when I try to imagine the degree of His fleshly temptations, for He had to overcome such temptation no only for His own flesh, but in it for ALL MANKIND…

I mean - YIKES!!

But sin??? Never - He was incapable of sin…

geo

 

[Margaret_Ann]

If we got rid of the pews in our church we’d have to close the doors. Our parish is mostly elderly.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Traditionally, there are no pews in a Byzantine church. There are side benches for the sick, elderly and pregnant women. Otherwise, you’re expected to stand during the entire Liturgy.

The EO church near me has folding chairs and they forego even those during the Great Fast if I read their information correctly.

As I’ve posted previously, when my Ukrainian Greek Catholic grandmother passed away, my RO aunt and uncle stood like sentinels for the entire Liturgy. The only time they sat down was for the homily. And they were elderly too!

 

[Margaret_Ann]

My extended family is Orthodox…and all I can tell you is that they–and those I’ve met in their churches–would never want to be Catholic. Ever.

My late RO aunt was a very devout RO woman. She would probably have anathematized the RO hierarchy if the latter ever proposed union with Rome.

So humanly speaking, there’s no chance of the RO, EO and OO ever uniting with Rome but remember what Al Michaels said in 1980:

“Do you believe in miracles? Yes!”

 

[Michael16]

@Margaret_Ann,

I think I can understand why Easterners stand during the Divine Liturgy. It’s showing respect, right?

As for us Latins, we kneel when Father consecrates the Host to show respect to Jesus and we stand during the Gospel reading.

About your RO aunt and uncle: I respect their stance and they had the ability to stand as long as they did. I’m just feel bad that there’s such bad blood between us and the Orthodox.

My family are ELCA. I went to their Christmas Eve service this year out of respect for my family.

All was well until the pastor began reading words from Martin Luther. I just visibly was disgusted and grimaced during the entire spiel. But, I stood up with everybody else out of respect for my family.

During their services, I’ll bow when the Incarnation is mentioned during their recital of the Creed. My son, who’s discerning the Faith; said to me: “ Dad, you don’t have to do that here. “ And I told him: “ I’m Catholic and that’s what I’ll do. “ While inwardly saying to myself: “ I ain’t backing down for them. “ I’ll even do the crossing my forehead, lips and heart when the Gospel is read.

After the service, my discerning son asked me why I didn’t participate in certain parts as we talked in the lobby with people passing by. I told him that I can’t participate in a Protestant, he tried to correct me with “ Lutheran “ and I just kept on talking; sacrament without mortal sin.

I don’t usually go to their services unless I have to. Often, I’m visibly uncomfortable and my Mom can see it. In fact, she thanked me for getting through their Christmas Eve service. She noticed how uncomfortable I was.

 

[Michael16]

@Margaret_Ann,

Thanks. That was a very cool explanation.

What does Pascha mean in Greek?

 

[CoffeeFanatic]

Is that true? I’m Orthodox, I’ve only ever heard it called Chrismation, and I’ve seen plenty of Catholics get Chrismated. There is, literally, no difference in how they are received vs. Protestants and Evangelicals. I don’t think it matters if you were Chrismated as a Catholic from an Orthodox perspective. There are way too many of my fellow Orthodox that will go so far as to claim that Catholics do not have real sacraments. I’m pretty sure I’ve even heard of cases where Orthodox Christians have left and then are received back via Chrismation- though this is rare- they would usually be brought back via confession alone.

Anyway, I’m thinking about crossing the Tiber myself. My only real concern is papal primacy. The filioque is a non-issue from my own, personal, perspective.

When I’m being extremely cynical (which is not an unusual occurrence by any means), I’d say there is as much of a chance of communion between certain jurisdictions of the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church as there is chance of those jurisdictions reuniting with each other at the moment.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

My only real concern is papal primacy.

Papal primacy has been part of the Church from the beginning. When the Corinthians (1st century) had a dispute they appealed to Pope St. Clement I even though the Holy Apostle John the Theologian was still alive. You’d think that they’d ask St. John for advice since he was the last living apostle but they did not.

Vatican I (1869-70) narrowly defined papal infallibility (which is not the same as papal primacy but they’re related). Some people are under the impression that the Pope is like the Delphian Oracle which he is not (and PF would probably be the first to agree).