Is there a real chance of communion between the Catholic Church and the orthodox?

[ziapueblo]

Unfortunately, if we see full communion between the Catholic and Orthodox Church, it may not be seen as a win-win, because most Roman Catholics I know will treat it as, “finally, they came to their senses and are back home,” and that would not be the proper understating.

ZP

 

[AlNg]

Back to the OP, in reality, at the parish level, in the pews, the average Mass goer and Divine Liturgy goer see little difference between the two Churches.

I agree with much of what you have said. But I am going to have to disagree with you here. In the local Byzantine Catholic Church which has people from Ukraine, the Ukrainians insist there is a huge difference between them and the Russian Orthodox. They strongly dislike Russians and the Russian Orthodox Church. And I believe that this is true in Ukraine also, where they have an image, in the St. Josaphat Catholic Church, of Russian Orthodox President Putin of Russia burning in hell. And Catholic parishioners are praying in front of this mural.

Now Putin has built or rebuilt some 24,000 Churches and re-populated some 1500 monasteries in a country devastated economically and militarily… They are putting God first as their haters close in and persecute Russian Orthodox Christians living Orthodox Christian lives…

Yes. And for that the Catholics place in their Church an image of Putin burning in hell?

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Does this mean that the Doctrine of Papal Infallibility specifies that the Pope can become a heretic and is therefore subject to disciplinary measures by the College of Cardinals who can depose him and then appoint a different Pope with Papal Infallibility?

In a way. Though it is not that Pope can not be judged… and what St. Maximus and St. George the Hagiorite professed was inerrancy of Rome… and Vatican I states that first See can not be judged. It explicitly speaks about See of Rome, not it’s Bishop- though that may be implicit.

Does the Latin Church understand Herself as an autocephalous Church?

Problem is that word autocephaly means “self-headed”. Christ is head of the Church and leads it through Holy Spirit (and he leads it through unity of entire communion with Head Pastor), hence no Church particular or global is self-headed. This is simply why Catholic Church uses “sui iuris” (of its own law/rule). Now of course thats some unimportant semantics but this is simply why we don’t use same term.

We view each Church sui iuris as “self-governing”. Currently, other than Eastern Canon Law, this is being respected more and more… hopefully soon being at level of agreement Rome made during Florence and Brest.

Does she also understand the Churches of Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople, and Jerusalem to be also autocephalous Churches in the early Church? Does she see the Russian Church as autocephalous?

If we talk about Orthodoxy, Catholic Church views them as being in schism and hence having rival jurisdiction. This means they get right to promulgate their own laws and rites, and they decide validity of their sacraments in true sense as much as they do not contradict Divine Law. Downside is that objectively those sacraments are not licit (though misinformation, good faith and ignorance change how illicit it is) and they miss out on being with communion with Church of Christ and His Vicar. This is of course Catholic viewpoint and I typed it for explanation, not to use this as binding for anyone… and it is also my understanding of Catholic viewpoint hence feel free to correct me if it is off, anyone.

what does autocephalous mean according to the dogmas or the Doctrines of the Western Latin Church?

Sui Iuris for Churches in communion means they are able to do all of what I stated above, as their own jurisdiction also exists. Only difference is they are submit to correction from Rome if it comes and should subject to Pope if it is needed… though Pope is expected to respect their rights and dignity, and intervene only if either unity or faith of the Church are in danger.

 

[AlNg]

"We can get along - There is plenty of wrong on both sides - And by the way, the Pope is infallible and is supreme over the eastern Churches…

That sums it up nicely.

 

[AlNg]

I’d love for the Church to have both of her lungs back together.

That might be your opinion, but I don’t believe that you will find too many Ukrainian Greek Catholics who want reunion with the Russian Orthodox Church.

 

[AlNg]

After we’d been Chrismated- my husband visited St. Anthony’s monastery in Arizona. They wanted to re-baptized him. It was a terrible experience.

Yes. Many Orthodox deny the validity of Roman Catholic Sacraments, including Baptism.

 

[George720]

Problem is that word autocephaly means “self-headed”. Christ is head of the Church and leads it through Holy Spirit (and he leads it through unity of entire communion with Head Pastor), hence no Church particular or global is self-headed. This is simply why Catholic Church uses “sui iuris” (of its own law/rule). Now of course thats some unimportant semantics but this is simply why we don’t use same term.

We view each Church sui iuris as “self-governing”.

Then there is no difference between Sui-juris and Autocephaly…

Are you really arguing that the Latin Communion has never used the term Autocephaly in the history of Christianity? That should be easy to falsify, and from your own account, Sui-juris IS Autocephaly…

If we talk about Orthodoxy, Catholic Church views them as being in schism and hence having rival jurisdiction. This means they get right to promulgate their own laws and rites, and they decide validity of their sacraments in true sense as much as they do not contradict Divine Law. Downside is that objectively those sacraments are not licit (though misinformation, good faith and ignorance change how illicit it is) and they miss out on being with communion with Church of Christ and His Vicar. This is of course Catholic viewpoint and I typed it for explanation, not to use this as binding for anyone… and it is also my understanding of Catholic viewpoint hence feel free to correct me if it is off, anyone.

The question was do they see these Orthodox Churches as autocephalous? Your answer seems to be: “No, they are schismatic”… So I can perhaps re-ask: Did the Latin Church see the Churches at Rome and Antioch and Jerusalem and Alexandria and Constantinople as Autocephalous Churches during the first thousand years of Christianity?

The answer is yes, and provable…

And according to the canons, no Head of a Church could correct another Church outside his own Church’s jurisdiction… Can’t even go there without invitation and approval…

geo

 

[George720]

"We can get along - There is plenty of wrong on both sides - And by the way, the Pope is infallible and is supreme over the eastern Churches…

And we promise to not be so mean next time and turn you over to the Muslims for extermination…

Lord have Mercy!

Authoritarians!!!

I mean, always looking for any way they can to tout their own authority… It is why God let the United States be created the way it is because its Colonies could not get along and they needed a government that was self-limiting in its authority…

And it almost worked…

And may work still!!

The Christian Faith is entirely voluntary - Even when it is not!

Many Orthodox deny the validity of Roman Catholic Sacraments, including Baptism.

And St. Anthony’s is a very traditional and Athonite Monastery, and is therefore in a lot of people’s gun-sights… Try hanging with those guys for 3 months… It is arduous…

geo

 

[ziapueblo]

The question was do they see these Orthodox Churches as autocephalous?

According to Vatican II, the Orthodox are true particular “Sister Churches” so I would say the answer has to be yes. The break of communion is from within the Church, not outside of it. This is my understanding of Unitatis Redintegratio and Ut Unum Sint, as well as the Balamand Statement.

ZP

 

[George720]

The question was do they see these Orthodox Churches as autocephalous?

That is even better… But for sure in the first thousand years… And then this self-contradictory understanding that Autocephaly/sui-juris means self rule… except, of course, when Rome decides differently… 'Tis oxymoron…

geo

 

[Margaret_Ann]

As I posted on another thread, I’m Ukrainian Greek Catholic but have Russian Orthodox cousins. We can send each other Nativity and Pascha cards but we can’t pray together.

When my uncle passed away, we had to go to his funeral. They had Parastas for him. We couldn’t even say “Amen.” during the service because Mom & Dad said we can’t pray during an Orthodox service. (This was the standard practice before VII btw - no participation permitted in non-Catholic services.)

If the pope personally ordered me to pray with my RO cousins I’d never be able to do it simply because I know my cousins would not pray with me.

In fact, 2 of my RO cousins were at Mom’s funeral. I guarantee they didn’t say a word during Parastas or Divine Liturgy.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

I will not drink Starbucks . . .

Do you know why Starbucks is called Starbucks?

Because when you pay the bucks you see stars.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

1 Corinthians 1: 10-18 is the Epistle for the Eighth Sunday After Pentecost (the Gospel is the miracle of the 5 loaves and 2 fishes).

The theme of this Sunday is unity. There are people who think that BXVI is still the pope. Others love/hate Pope Francis. If Pope Francis resigned, you’d have another Great Western Schism imo. St. Vincent Ferrer and St. Catherine of Siena supported the man each thought was the true pope.

So you’d have the scenario of two (!) “former Popes” (!!) while a third is elected pope.

I can’t even fathom it.

 

[AlNg]

If the pope personally ordered me to pray with my RO cousins I’d never be able to do it

Yes. It is true that there are Catholics who refuse to pray with Russian Orthodox Christians, even if the Pope requests it. This another example of why there will not be any reunion between Catholics and Orthodox anytime soon.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

I thought that the Pope is above a council and not even a council can judge a Pope per Vatican I?

An imperfect council would determine whether or not the Pope had severed himself from the Church.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

As I posted, my cousins would not pray with me even if the pope ordered me to do so.

And as I’ve posted on other threads, when my Ukrainian Greek Catholic grandmother passed away, my RO aunt and uncle stood like sentinels during the entire Liturgy and never said a word.

The Catholic and Orthodox hierarchies can have all the ecumenical gatherings, documents etc but at the local level it’s “the more things change the more they stay the same”.

I would love to pray with my cousins but they would not join me in prayer. It would make them extremely uncomfortable and I couldn’t see myself putting them in that position.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

I thought Dominus Iesus stated otherwise.

Good night everyone!

 

[Vico]

George720:

The question was do they see these Orthodox Churches as autocephalous?

According to Vatican II, the Orthodox are true particular “Sister Churches” so I would say the answer has to be yes. The break of communion is from within the Church, not outside of it. This is my understanding of Unitatis Redintegratio and Ut Unum Sint, as well as the Balamand Statement.

ZP

Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, June 30, 2000, Joseph Card. Ratzinger

One may also speak of sister Churches, in a proper sense, in reference to particular Catholic and non-catholic Churches; thus the particular Church of Rome can also be called the sister of all other particular Churches. However, as recalled above, one cannot properly say that the Catholic Church is the sister of a particular Church or group of Churches. This is not merely a question of terminology, but above all of respecting a basic truth of the Catholic faith: that of the unicity of the Church of Jesus Christ. In fact, there is but a single Church,[9] and therefore the plural term Churches can refer only to particular Churches.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...on_cfaith_doc_20000630_chiese-sorelle_en.html

 

[ziapueblo]

Thanks I’ll read it.

ZP

 

[ziapueblo]

Thanks,

I’ve read the document but I’m not sure I understand what you are getting at? Are you saying that the Orthodox are not “Sister Churches” as stated in Vatican II documents?

I understand the the Note is meant to define the theological use of the term. It does state that a “sister Church” can be a reference to a particular Catholic or non-Catholic Church (Orthodox, since Protestants are considered ecclesiastical communities). Also, the document in its last paragraph states:

“Finally, it must also be borne in mind that the expression sister Churches in the proper sense, as attested by the common Tradition of East and West, may only be used for those ecclesial communities that have preserved a valid Episcopate and Eucharist.”

The Catholic Church does recognize that the Orthodox “have preserved a valid Episcopate and Eucharist.”

ZP