Is there a real chance of communion between the Catholic Church and the orthodox?

[OrbisNonSufficit]

IIRC you are in Slovakia. how much collaboration is there between Greek Catholics and Orthodox there?

Yes, that’s right. They work together against abortions mostly, and oppose LGBT propaganda. Also they meet often with some protestant denominations present in Slovak Council of Churches and discuss some issues that concern the country. Catholicism is usually involved together (Greek and Latin) so whenever Orthodoxy interacts with them about those things, it isn’t just East-East or West-East interaction. I am not sure about every field they cooperate at, but I know Bishops are familiar with each other. During anti-abortion protests, representative of each Slovak Church spoke in a short speech (well, Latin Catholic Archbishop just read letter Pope addressed to Slovak protests). Orthodox Bishop and Greek Catholic Bishop both presented a speech as well.

Other than at this hierarchy level, I know that Greek Catholics and Orthodox can be on rivalry term sometimes. It isn’t anything too serious but it would be very uncommon for them to practice intercommunion, and allowing each other to commune in other’s Church is practically no-go. Greek Catholic Bishops respect the law allowing Orthodox to do so, but they are pretty sure to make sure no danger of indifferentism is involved. It isn’t that mutual respect is not present, but generally Catholics stay Catholic and Orthodox stay Orthodox. Mixed marriages are usually not frowned upon and sacraments of Eastern Catholics do get recognized by Orthodoxy to my knowledge.

 

[ziapueblo]

Or maybe they should just not mention it at all.

Kind of like the first millennium lol!

ZP

 

[ziapueblo]

@OrbisNonSufficit

A local Roman Catholic priest and my Greek Orthodox priest have a yearly “Theology on Tap” series at the local pubs. It’s a lot of fun and they get along very well.

ZP

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

A local Roman Catholic priest and my Greek Orthodox priest have a yearly “Theology on Tap” series at the local pubs. It’s a lot of fun and they get along very well.

Sounds like a great thing indeed!

 

[dvdjs]

Kind of like the first millennium lol!

Now there’s a thought!

 

[George720]

At the heart of the split is the Orthodox refusal to accept papal authority.

The obverse is also at issue - eg:

At the heart of the split is the Latin insistence on Her Own authority.

The two cannot be separated - eg Refusal to obey cannot exist without insistence on obedience… Rome demands obedience, and the rest of the [autocephalous] Churches refuse to obey Rome… So the question then becomes: Did all the Churches except Rome change in 1054+/-, or did Rome change and all the rest of the Church keep on as they had always done? Did all of the Churches change in 1054ish from being obedient to Rome and the Chair of Peter in all matters Ecclesiastical up to that time? Or did Latin Rome instead assert an authority over the Body of Christ that had not ever been established up to that point?

And the central point is that if Latin Rome had always been the juridical Head of Christ’s Body on earth, then there would be an extensive recording of her rulings in Rome and in all the Churches in all matters Ecclesiastic, and not mere superlative salutations etc… Much like our courts have their records going back to their beginnings of rulings… And with copies provided to the litigants… And that simply was never the case…

When we hear Rome insisting on Her own authority over us, we turn away and pray for Her… Because “And Behold! I am with you always! To the end of the Age.” We hold Christ, not Rome, as the very active Head of His Own Body on earth…

geo

 

[Margaret_Ann]

In the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Archeparchy of Philadelphia, there was Divine Liturgy for the Feast of the Nativity on the Julian calendar. And one parish (not mine) celebrates Julian Nativity too.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Does a Byzantine Catholic/Eastern Catholic priest participate too?

 

[ziapueblo]

No, which is something I’ve never really thought about, but they have participated in one Theology on Tap where the topic was on the Eastern Churches in communion with Rome. They do however work with the Newman Center at the University doing student Bible studies, apologetics, etc.

ZP

 

[Margaret_Ann]

It seems like whenever there’s inter-religious activity, it’s always RC and EO, and the ECC are non-existent. This is why His Beatitude Sviatoslav was truly grieved when PF and Kirill met a few years ago:

https://www.royaldoors.net/2016/02/two-parallel-worlds-interview-beatitude-sviatoslav/

https://www.royaldoors.net/2016/02/called-to-unity/

 

[George720]

We do know that recent popes have bent over backwards trying to accomplish the Union of East and west. Simply listen to how the Orthodox authorities speak about the Catholic Church, many speak with much disdain and mockery; again, the Orthodox authorities need to be humble and out politics aside.

I am pretty much of a five year old myself…
And I often find myself to be the only adult in a room…
Five year olds bear great responsibility, you see…
Of which we are utterly unworthy…
But even so are saddled with it anyway…
To almost everyone’s regret, I should add!

We make progress pretty much by falling down forward, I say!



geo

 

[Gab123]

I am

The problem with Orthodox groups is the long history of countless schisms within schisms resulting in a confusing array ethnically and politically defined internally fractured communions. Christ founded one Catholic Church for all peoples, not limited to ethnic groups.

 

[ziapueblo]

It’s unfortunate that often times Eastern Catholics are seen as the stepchild and forgot.

ZP

 

[Gab123]

At the heart of the split is the Latin insistence on Her Own authority.

Yes, this is because of Jesus. At their first meeting, Christ told Simon that his name would thereafter be Peter, which translates as “Rock” (John 1:42). Jesus changed Simon the fisherman’s name to Rock for a reason. It wasn’t just a fond nickname, it had to do with Jesus building His Church on Peter. Jesus specifically gives Peter the keys to bind and loose things in heaven and on earth.

After the Resurrection, Christ the Good Shepherd Peter (John 10:11, 14) told Peter three times to tend and “Feed my sheep” (John 21:17).

Even if there were to be a unification of East with Rome, it is not like the Orthodox are one group, it is a mess of groups often divided by political and ethnic identity.

Thus doesn’t mean there isn’t holiness, or that God is not working through the Orthodox; God also works through the Protestants with what they have. The problem is division within division and a confusing blurred understanding of what exactly the Orthodox believe, just like what we see in Protestantism; while the former is the fruit of schism, the later is the fruit of heresy.

 

[ziapueblo]

Jesus specifically gives Peter the keys to bind and loose things in heaven and on earth.

The “keys” and as well as “binding and loosing” go together. Two chapters later all the apostles are given the power to “bind and loose.” Many of the early Church fathers, both East and West, wrote that all the apostles where given the “keys.”

There is no doubt that St Peter was had a special place among the apostles and both East and West agree that the Bishop of Rome has a special place among the Bishops. However, to take Matthew 16 and John 21to mean universal and immediate jurisdiction over the whole Church?

Even if there were to be a unification of East with Rome, it is not like the Orthodox are one group, it is a mess of groups often divided by political and ethnic identity.

Have you been to a Divine Liturgy in the Sunday of Orthodoxy (first Sunday of Great Lent)? In my area all the Orthodox come together and celebrate. I understand what you mean, with the situation between the EP and MP, but I find it interesting how some Roman Catholics do not wish to see the disunity in their own Church.

Thus doesn’t mean there isn’t holiness, or that God is not working through the Orthodox; God also works through the Protestants . . .

I’m sure you know that the Catholic Church views the Orthodox as having apostolic succession therefore a valid Eucharist. This means that the Catholic see the Orthodox as true, particular Churches.

just like what we see in Protestantism; while the former is the fruit of schism

Read Unitatis Redintegratio and Ut Unum Sint, as well as the Balamand Statement, it takes two to tango.

ZP

 

[Gab123]

Two chapters later all the apostles are given the power to “bind and loose.” Many of the early Church fathers, both East and West, wrote that all the apostles where given the “keys.”

Yes , they Apostles also had authority, a¡ thus Apostolic succession is valid. Likewise, Jesus built His Church on Peter. Ask yourself, why did Jesus change Simon’s name? He singled him out for a reason…

I find it interesting how some Roman Catholics do not wish to see the disunity in their own Church.

Every practicing Roman Catholic knows who the pope is and what the Church teaches. It is quite another thing for individuals to disregard the pope or Church teaching. There has always been schisms and heresies, and every single one of them began with someone inside the Church who took it upon themselves to make decisions to usher people out of the Church and to be disobedient to authority, leaving division and
There have always been squabbled, beginning with those who argued against Paul and the issue was settled at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15 shows exactly the pattern and authority laid out for the Church).

it takes two to tango.

Again, recent popes, and popes throughout history for that matter, have bent over backwards to unite both East and West, but politics and ethnic identities that govern the Orthodox always stand in the way. Christ founded only One Church yet there are countless separate groups who reject legitimate authority, as if there were no Vicar of Christ in the earth.

Have you been to a Divine Liturgy in the Sunday of Orthodoxy (first Sunday of Great Lent)? In my area all the Orthodox come together and celebrate

I live close to an amazing Greek Orthodox monastery and have seen the beauty of Russian Orthodox liturgy on video. It is a shame they can’t come together with the Latin Church and profess unity, while keeping their beautiful liturgy. It’s not that the popes and the Catholic Church do not want it, it is that the politics behind the Orthodox groups do not want to be in union with the pope in Romeo ñor do they want to have him as a shepherd.

Notice in John 21:17 where Jesus addresses Peter as “ Simon son of John” telling him: “Feed my lambs”, “Tend my sheep“, “feed my sheep”, Jesus uses Peter’s birth name “Simon” while in the same line, the Sacred Scriptures recording this event addresses Simon as Peter, the office Simon holds vía the name Jesus gave him— ‘Peter upon whom Jesus would build the Church and last throughout the ages.

The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my sheep.

 

[dvdjs]

It’s unfortunate that often times Eastern Catholics are seen as the stepchild and forgot.

This is often not simply a matter of forgetting. More typically, at high level meetings it is a demand from Orthodox who do not accept Greek Catholics at bilateral meeting with the Catholic church, which to them is and must be specifically Roman Catholic.

 

[AlNg]

It seems like whenever there’s inter-religious activity, it’s always RC and EO, and the ECC are non-existent. This is why His Beatitude Sviatoslav was truly grieved when PF and Kirill met a few years ago:

Do you think that is the reason? Or is it that at least partially, that some Greek Catholics do not want to be united with the Russian Orthodox Church?

 

[AlNg]

I live close to an amazing Greek Orthodox monastery and have seen the beauty of Russian Orthodox liturgy on video. It is a shame they can’t come together with the Latin Church and profess unity, while keeping their beautiful liturgy.

“While keeping their beautiful liturgy”
As the Roman Pontiff has universal supremacy and jurisdiction over the whole Church, this gives him the authority to change the liturgy whenever he deems it suitable. This was done in the 1960’s over the strenuous objections of many in the Roman Catholic Church such as for example, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre. They were sanctioned rather severely for opposing the New Mass.
If the Pope has universal supremacy and jurisdiction over the whole church, is it not possible that he would order a change in the Eastern Liturgy?
You will respond that it is unlikely to happen.
But in 1950, was it not thought unlikely that the beautiful Roman liturgy would change as it did?

recent popes, and popes throughout history for that matter, have bent over backwards to unite both East and West,

Insisting on Vatican I and on the universal supremacy and jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff is not bending over backwards.

 

[ziapueblo]

Yes , they Apostles also had authority, a¡ thus Apostolic succession is valid. Likewise, Jesus built His Church on Peter. Ask yourself, why did Jesus change Simon’s name? He singled him out for a reason…

How does Simon Peter’s name change prove universal and immediate jurisdiction over the whole Church?

Again, recent popes, and popes throughout history for that matter, have bent over backwards to unite both East and West, but politics and ethnic identities that govern the Orthodox always stand in the way.

I don’t see how ethnic identities stand in the way? My Greek Orthodox Church has very little ethnically Greek families anymore. The OCA parish I visit is very diverse. The ROCOR only has a few Russians and the Antiochian Church was founded by some former Episcopalian priests, no Middle Easterners in the parish.

The only difference is what desserts are being sold at the festivals.

. . . while keeping their beautiful liturgy.

A rite is so much more than a liturgical patrimony. It’s a Church’s theology and spirituality as well.

it is that the politics behind the Orthodox groups do not want to be in union with the pope in Romeo ñor do they want to have him as a shepherd.

It’s universal and immediate jurisdiction over the whole Church is what it is.

Notice in John 21:17 where Jesus addresses Peter as “ Simon son of John” telling him: “Feed my lambs”, “Tend my sheep“, “feed my sheep”, Jesus uses Peter’s birth name “Simon” while in the same line, the Sacred Scriptures recording this event addresses Simon as Peter , the office Simon holds vía the name Jesus gave him— ‘Peter upon whom Jesus would build the Church and last throughout the ages.

I was involved in RC apologetics for 20 years. I know the “classic” Catholic Answers tracts. None of this proves universal and immediate jurisdiction over the whole Church.

Did St Peter have a special place among the Apostles? Yes, he most certainly did! Does that Bishop of Rome have a special place among the other Bishops? Yes. Universal and immediate jurisdiction over the whole Church?

ZP