Is there a real chance of communion between the Catholic Church and the orthodox?

[Margaret_Ann]

Saint Josaphat once said “God grant that I snatch your souls and take them to Heaven”! To display image of someone identifiable burning in Hell in Church of this God’s Saint should be called sacrilege.

I’m not a fan of VP but since he is still living he should not be portrayed that way. And even if he was dead he still shouldn’t be portrayed that way. We’ll find out on Judgement Day.

 

[dochawk]

Doc, I don’t understand your statement on infallibility. I thought that was strictly a papal power.

As set froth in Vatican I, it’s not papal infallibility, but a papal role in expressing the infallibility of the church . . . someone posted the language in either this or the 20 byzantine questions thread.

Does it not already kind of require Eastern participation, if it is that Bishops exercise it through him? East is full of Bishops after all

I would certainly argue that, yes. But . . .

Therefore , such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church , irreformable. Would this still be compatible with idea of collegiality in the East?

I think that language could be worked out spelling out how the bishops must participate prior to the pronouncement that would be consistent with the needs of both east and west . . .

 

[George720]

My next question for you is:

Petrine Ministry.
Without ruling the Church juridically;
how does the Petrine Ministry function to strengthen the brethren?

Prayer, persuasion, diplomacy, exhortation, etc etc - In a word, Divinely inspired leadership… It had no Juridical Rule in the first thousand years… But during that time, it had a Papacy that for one to receive it was a death sentence of martyrdom… Since claiming Juridical Rule, no Pope has been martyred…

The biggest theological objection to Papal Jurisdiction over the Church concerns the issue of free-will, and the willful nature of Salvation in Christ… Forced and compelled virtue is no virtue at all… And power corrupts… This is why the Orthodox have had heretical patriarchs and excommunications of local Churches in transgression or heresy… And it is why they seek resolution in Counciliar discussions and decisions…

Each local Church Patriarch can take his Church’s Communion out of Communion with any other Church in a disputed matter… Often several will do so against one independently, as was the case between Moscow and ROCOR for so long… And they sorted it out, and re-united… Yes, compared to a labor camp of prisoners being ruled over by guards, the process is messy… But it is free, and kind of free-wheeling… And there are always challenges… And conflicts… That’s life!

What about unity?

Unity is found in Communion…

Disunity in absence of Communion…

What is your concept of the Petrine Office?

Primacy of Honor in the Good Order of the Church…

Ability to call an Ecumenical Council…

Just a few thoughts… This thread kinda took off…

geo

 

[Michael16]

@Margaret_Ann,

That’s an extensive list.

I’ve never been to a TLM; so I can’t answer you on the why they do what they do in it. I’ve always wanted to go though. I think Latin is a beautiful language.

I have a devotion to the Sacred Heart and I’m consecrated to Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart.

I love Eucharistic Adoration/Holy Hour and the Rosary. I also have a devotion to Our Lady of Perpetual Help. I have one on the wall in my room.

As for the Kyrie Eleison and Christe Eleison; I don’t know why they mistranslated it. In every Latin parish I’ve been at, we say Lord, have mercy and Christ, have mercy. In English, of course.

As for what I like in the Eastern Tradition: First off, I always thought Greek is a beautiful language.

What first drew me was hesychasm and the Jesus Prayer. I’ve had great experiences praying the Jesus Prayer. There’s been times that I’ve been under strong assault and I’d say the prayer and the storm would calm.

Another thing I like is the icons. Not only are they beautiful artwork, they’re wonderful teaching tools and ways to imagine oneself in the presence of the Saints, Our Lady and Jesus. Kind of like Ignatian imaginative prayer but with tangible pictures I can interact with.

When I was in RCIA, the parish I was at had an Our Lady of Perpetual Help in the chapel and I’d often go there for Adoration, pray the Rosary and contemplate the icon after work.

I have a background in self taught study of Greek philosophy; especially Platonism, Neoplatonism and Stoicism. So, I’m familiar with a lot of Greek terms used in Eastern theology.

I’ve read parts of the Philokalia and I’m drawn to Eastern spirituality of the heart. I find much beauty and value, as well as my natural affinity for Marian spirituality which is very heart oriented; in the Eastern emphasis on heart gnosis ( Gnosis understood as experiential knowledge; not esoteric like the heretics ) over intellectual analysis.

Today, I’ve been practicing grounding myself in my heart than in my mind. The heart is much more of a constant than the mind.

I spent a lot of years locked into a very head oriented mentality. So, shifting emphasis is very much a good thing.

The concept of synergeia is very appealing and lines up with my understanding of sanctification that Saint Paul taught in Romans. In addition, sanctification lines up very well with another Eastern concept I love which is theosis.

God became man so man can become God.

That’s just a beautiful concept to me. Growing in holiness is a process of divinization; partaking in the divine nature.

Makes sense to me.

 

[George720]

I do not believe keys are actually connected to binding and losing, or at least not solely expression of it.

Well, there were no automobiles in those days, so they were not the keys to the car!

I should think the keys are the powers to exercise the Holy Mysteries - eg Sacraments - of the Church… The power to bind and to loose sins are two of these, as are Annointing, Communion, Baptism, Laying on of Hands, etc etc… These were given to ALL the Apostles, who were then sent out by Lot into ALL the Nations of the world… Peter received them because he had been restored to His Apostleship after thrice denying Christ…

But all the Apostles received the Keys to the Kingdom of the Heavens… They are the Means by which Christ acts in His Body the Church…

geo

 

[Michael16]

@George720,

I’m thinking you’re misunderstanding the Latin concept of the Petrine Office. The Pope doesn’t force or compel virtue.

My understanding of it is that the Pope ensures a central authority that can definitively settle disputes and hold the Church together.

Otherwise, what I see happening is disorder and rampant schism.

Saint Thomas Aquinas taught, in line with Saint Matthew’s Gospel; that a Christian in error is to be persuaded to return to the fold and if he doesn’t correct his error after three? attempts; then he’s treated as an outsider. Essentially, that’s how the Latin Church handled heretics.

Now, I’m not advocating that the Petrine Office is to be used as a hammer to oppress.

I personally think that we should preserve beautiful variants of the Faith, as long as they’re not heretical. Like Saint Augustine said: In essentials, unity; non essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.

In fact, when you look at Latin councils; the Pope calls the council and is it’s chief presiding officer with honest and free discussion and voting that leads to resolution with the Pope, I’m not too sure on this part; putting his seal of approval on it.

So far, I’m thinking this should be an acceptable procedure for the East. Correct me if I’m wrong of course, please.

 

[George720]

Κύριε, ελέησον = Lord, have mercy (this is how we do it in Vespers).

Κύριε, ελέησον σε μας = Lord, have mercy on us (Google Translate)

Κύριε, ελέησον ιμας - Lord, have mercy on us (maybe @George720 or @AlNg could tell which “Lord, have mercy on us” is correct)

Κύριε, ελέησον ημας
Lord pity us

Κύριε, ελέησον με
Lord pity me

At least I think so!

geo

 

[George720]

I personally think that we should preserve beautiful variants of the Faith

I join you in also desiring to preserve the Latin variant…

It is far too beautiful to discard out of hand, I say!



The Patriarch is the Head of the Local Church, but his jurisdiction ends at his borders…

The Pope doesn’t force or compel virtue.

The issue is compulsion vs freedom, voluntary vs involuntary…

If a local Church is doing something wrong, Communion is withdrawn until the matter is resolved… eg Authority is not imposed on the offending Church, but the Auto-Cephalous authority of each Local Church is exercised regarding another…

geo

 

[Michael16]

@George720,

Hahaha I love talking with you Easterners!

 

[AlNg]

I’m not a fan of VP but since he is still living he should not be portrayed that way. And even if he was dead he still shouldn’t be portrayed that way.

And Catholics are supposed to pray in front of this image? To portray Putin burning in hell does not seem too charitable to me? I am sure that everyone there knows about this. Putin may not be a saint, but still he has given strong support to the revival of the Orthodox church in Russia. I don’t see why a Catholic Church in Chervonohrad (Lviv) portrays him as burning in hell?

churches like the russian orthodox church or even the Malankara Orthodox church are too connected to politics

If this portrayal in a Catholic Church is not politics, then what is it except a slap in the face of a man who has helped restore Christian Orthodoxy to Russia?

 

[Wandile]

Wandile:

That’s why priests cannot licitly celebrate the sacraments without communion with Rome or at least roman permission.

Apparently you disagree with Vatican II because licit does not mean in communion with Rome. It means according to the law.

The law is set by the Church of Christ which is headed in Rome. The law is set by Rome which is why for centuries Rome considered eastern bishops to be real valid bishops but without jurisdiction.

Orthodox priests do not need communion with Rome to celebrate their Sacraments in accordance with the law of their Church.

I added at least roman confirmation (acceptance) which is what the EO at least tacitly have since the last century.

My understanding is that the Catholic Church sees the Orthodox Churches as Sister Churches.

Yes in that that they have apostolic succession

Since they are a true Church, a Sister Church, they have the authority to govern themselves

Yes they do

and therefore even though they are not in communion with Rome, their Sacraments can be licit or lawful if celebrated according to the law of their Church.

That is not correct. Although some hyper ecumenists would like it to be true. It simply isn’t, the church is the owner and dispenser of sacraments and only in her, or at least with her permission can sacraments be celebrated licitly. Again, the SSPX are just as valid as the EO but even until the last few years they needed papal approval to licitly celebrate marriages and hear confessions.

 

[Wandile]

Yes even though the Catholic and Orthodox are not in full communion with one another, the Catholic Church recognizes that the Orthodox are true particular Churches and “Sister Churches.” This is why the schism is from within and not outside of the Church. How could one be considered a Church yet outside of the Church, correct?

Incorrect. The designation of an institution as a church by definition has no bearing on being inside or outside the church of Christ but only concerns the institutions apostolic succession and validity of its sacraments.

The Old Catholic Church (until recently) was as much a church as the Eastern Orthodox.

Or else if we take your reasoning, the Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Assyrian Church of the East and Oriental Orthodox are all one church which is clearly not true.

 

[Wandile]

The union of Brest is the best model for unity.

I disagree it hasn’t been honoured. In fact I’m of the opinion that in the last 150 years it has been honoured to 95% of the time barring a few instances like that of Bishop John Ireland in America with the Byzantines.

 

[Michael16]

@George720

If the Union of Brest is how were supposed to treat the ECs; then I agree that it’s probably the model of how communion with the Orthodox would look like.

The problem is that we have to show them that we’ll abide by it faithfully.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Thank you, George.

What would be the Jesus Prayer in Greek? The version I like is this one:

“Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me.”

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

IOW you think a dialogue trumps canon law

IOW, you really don’t want to answer my questions and would rather make a black and white assumption about what I think rather than listening or having a real conversation.

I don’t think I’ve ever said that dialog trumps canon law. But at the same time, if these agreed statements have no weight then ecumenical dialogue is, frankly, meaningless.

One agreed statement certainly won’t be the entirety of what is needed to reestablish communion, but each one (of which Chieiti is one of many) is part of the step by step process of laying a foundation on which the future basis of restoration of communion will be built. This is precisely why these statements are important.

“THOSE” Churches that became Orthodox, down the road of history, WERE first Catholic to begin with. And historically speaking, many of those Churches came back in union with the Catholic Church at the council of Florence.

AND

Because they are in full communion,

They are then under
( Canon 43 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches ) ,
“The bishop of the Church of Rome, in whom resides the office (munus) given in a special way by the Lord to Peter, first of the Apostles and to be transmitted to his successors, is head of the college of bishops, the Vicar of Christ and Pastor of the entire Church on earth; therefore in virtue of his office (munus) he enjoys supreme, full, immediate and universal ordinary power in the Church which he can always freely exercise.”

making Jesus prayer a reality HERE

in extension,

Dialogue then, continues to work towards that reality for everyone else who isn’t in communion… to come into communion with the Catholic Church

 

[steve-b]

Submit to Peter?

ZP

And Peter’s successors,

 

[George720]

The Law is set by the Church of Christ…
Which is headed in Rome…
The law is set by Rome…
Which is why for centuries Rome considered eastern bishops…
To be real valid bishops
But…
Without jurisdiction.

The Church is a Holy Body, not a Juridical Institution administered by Rome…
The Head of this Holy Body is not found in Rome or even geographically on earth…
Because the Head of this Body is Christ…
It has always been so…

Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under His feet,
and gave Him to be the Head over all things
to the Church…

Notice it does not say to the Chair of Peter…

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife,
Even as Christ is the head of the Church:
And he is the Saviour of the Body.

Col 1:18
And He is the head of the Body, the Church:
Who is the beginning,
The firstborn from the dead;
That in all things
He might have the preeminence.

You see, this is what the Orthodox have kept in the face of all manner of persecutions against them, even unto the destruction of the Church in Constantinople, of those who would hold ANY earthly person or office or Church to be the Head of the Body of which they are Members, severally and as a group, in Christ…

The Law of God is not set by earthly earthly authority, but by Christ…

“For behold!
I am with you always…
Even unto the end of the Age…”

We never lost sight of these Holy Words of our Savior…

geo

 

[ziapueblo]

Sorry, not submission but communion with.

ZP

 

[Isaac14]

“THOSE” Churches that became Orthodox, down the road of history, WERE first Catholic to begin with.

No. The various churches were never under the jurisdiction of Rome. The dialogue acknowledges they were never under the jurisdiction of Rome. Restoration of communion will never on the happen on the basis of submission to Rome, but will happen when we mutually recognize we share the same faith.

And you still haven’t answered my two questions.