Is there a real chance of communion between the Catholic Church and the orthodox?

[OrbisNonSufficit]

I agree, but it seems that Pope Gregory became somewhat threatened with the title “Ecumenical Patriarch,”

I agree with that too, but I don’t necessarily think he just lashed out unjustly. Perhaps he was misinformed but he stepped up to protect order of the Church as he saw it, and was supported by other Petrine Sees. If nothing else, this proves what Pope St. Gregory believed in and was widely supported at, while not being fraternally corrected by anyone at the time. If this view was incorrect innovation I assume he would get corrected, and his canonisation wouldn’t be so fast in the East. On the other hand, he spoke implicitly against Roman centralisation Church now seems to employ too… and in even more extreme manner I thought initially.

I hope you respond to your fellow RC with this same quote, “but otherwise it does sound like you agree with what suits you.” Maybe you have?

I would and will try to if I have such impression. I am not infallible either. I was very wrong to outright accuse you, I apologize for doing so. Please forgive me.

It has become a game of lobbing quotes from the Father like hand grenades, similar to slinging Bible verses back and forth with Protestants back when I was heavy into RC apologetics.

Most important about Church Fathers and their quotes is their reception, how widely they were known/supported/opposed. I believe Pope Gregory’s model of Bishops (including Rome) being all equal but Rome having right to judge to protect unity as well as Orthodoxy, is not refuted by any Church Father. Especially since Pope speaks with such respect for his brothers in episcopate.

John IV usurped Roman prerogatives when he declared himself universal bishop.

Actually that was different. There were 2 issues
a) title and its wrong translation to latin. Why distinguish imperial patriarch if Primate of Church is not distinguished? Why is being Imperial important? And if wrongly translated (as it was), title universal makes it even worse.

b) Why should Constantinople have primacy over Petrine Sees of Alexandria and Antioch? Even Holy City was ranked below them. It made little sense other than advancing secular influence over the Church.

Popes were not Ecumenical Patriarchs, and refused title to maintain sense of brotherhood with other Patriarchs. Outside special Petrine Ministry, they are equals after all.

 

[Michael16]

I’d be interested in reading that, @ziapueblo.

It’s my understanding that the basic problem was that West and East drifted apart culturally, liturgically and theologically until the final straw with Cardinal Humbert and Patriarch Michael excommunicating each other.

Stupid, really.

Sorry we didn’t help you guys out better against the Muslims.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

If it were possible to refute anyone in the Orthodox-Catholic argument, someone would have done it long ago and we’d all have been either Catholic or Orthodox.

I get your point but same is applicable to Sola Scriptura and so on. Searching for truth is also beneficial. I seek to understand as well as to share my very poor knowledge. While we are unlikely to solve schism in one forum thread, in God everything is possible and He works in mysterious ways… and we might just become one much needed puzzle in great image made by all those much needed puzzles. We might save someone from converting out of misinformation or find that we were wrong all along. Dialogue on this level is still important.

There are great people on this forum.

Many times we stand on opposite sides of argument, but I can safely say you are also one of those great people. Also take geo for example- he has completely opposite points than I do, yet I took some examples from his approach which helped my struggle with pride. Thank you for that @George720

Most (if not all) people involved in discussion are well informed and say what they say with good intentions. Despite our different stances, I am grateful for all your contribution. I feel genuinely grateful. May God reward you all for your efforts, and lead us all to His Absolute Truth.

 

[ziapueblo]

It’s my understanding that the basic problem was that West and East drifted apart culturally, liturgically and theologically until the final straw with Cardinal Humbert and Patriarch Michael excommunicating each other.

Well into the thirteenth century you have Latins and Greeks worshiping in each other’s Churches. At the local level it was just treated as a dispute between their hierarchs and nothing more. Similar to what is happening between the MP and EP. I know of Greeks who commune at Russian Churches because there are no other Orthodox Churches and vis a versa (it is only the MP who will not allow his members to commune in EP Churches by the way, not the other way around).

Stupid, really.

Hopefully there will continue to be dialogue which is honest and fruitful.

ZP

 

[ziapueblo]

Thank you for that @George720

I agree. I enjoy reading his responses.

ZP

 

[dochawk]

Calling a cleric pig-headed is deeply unchristian.

Oh, no. That was my mild description, and a charitable word for the circumstances.

You have to admit that although wrong, most that was done to the Eastern Catholics was done out of ignorance of the local Latin clergy. Not out of hatred for eastern Catholicism.

Err, no I don’t, and no it wasn’t. “Ignorance” at that level is culpable.

Bishops have been responsible for the care of other ritual groups since long before the schism, and have been responsible for protecting those Christians from the majority.

Instead of protection, it was a boot heel ground in.

Most of what you mentioned has existence in the fiasco of ****.

No, that was not an isolated incident. And “fiasco” is a gross understatement for illicit acts in violation of Church law that broke off half of our parishes and faithful–well, half of what was left after the prior abuse and schism when Fr. Toth had run into the same bigotry.

You have to admit most of the articles of Brest have been honoured and about 90% of the time at least. I just read over the articles of the union of Brest to make sure and I think only two articles have been partially violated. That’s about it.

*sputter*

I can’t name any violations of #6-#8, have no basis to comment on #12, #13 only applies to future union that has yet to happen, I suppose the violations of #16 can be ascribed to merely gross negligence on Rome’s end, #19 has been followed as far as I am aware, #21 is a civil matter with the king, I’ve never heard of interference in #22-24, don’t know about #28-30, #31 is another on future union, don’t know about #32, and #33 its a conclusion.

Gee, that’s almost half that haven’t been utterly trampled upon.

Nobody said it’s perfect and the Code of Eastern Canons had the sanction of the eatsern hierarchy who had their own clergy work on it.

Frankly, that’s a Stockholm Syndrome issue, as were many latinizations.

I’ve read over Redintegratio and I’m seeing that V2 held out to the Eastern Churches that in a future restoration that they’d be self governing according to the disciplines appropriate to their flocks for the salvation of their souls.

the catch there is that we were supposed to have that since entering communion!

Chrismation can only be received once in a lifetime. Since you were validly confirmed/chrismated (I think you posted that you were originally RC?), you cannot receive it again.

There is a split on this in the East.

WhileI believe it is only once for most, some Chrysmate again when coming from outside the church or some (all?) excommunications.

sometimes there is a split within individual EO churches!

 

[Salibi]

get your point but same is applicable to Sola Scriptura and so on. Searching for truth is also beneficial. I seek to understand as well as to share my very poor knowledge. While we are unlikely to solve schism in one forum thread, in God everything is possible and He works in mysterious ways… and we might just become one much needed puzzle in great image made by all those much needed puzzles. We might save someone from converting out of misinformation or find that we were wrong all along. Dialogue on this level is still important.

Agreed. I never said we should stop dialogue! :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Agreed. I never said we should stop dialogue!

Oh well, I misunderstood then… apologies. I’ll pull my rare “it’s past midnight here” card I gues… yep, that should do the trick

 

[Salibi]

It’s past midnight here too.

As I recall, you live in Slovakia, right?

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Yup. You’re from Lebanon or so, correct? From my beloved Maronite Church!

 

[Salibi]

We have great memories. It’s been long since I’ve engaged with you on a thread.

 

[Michael16]

I agree, @ziapueblo,

I hope there’ll be more dialogue on this as I’d really love to be reunited with the East.

A question I have is: What’s the beef with the Russians? If I’m not mistaken, isn’t it because the Russian Church declared itself the New Rome after Constantinople fell in 1453 and possibly declared itself an autocephalous Patriarchate?

 

[dochawk]

Politics in the EOC are VERY SLOPPY indeed - They drag on for years and decades and even centuries…

Hey, something else in common with the RCC

I forget what it’s called, but there is a name for the waiting game in Rome, particularly of waiting for the next pope.

The Jesuits are masters of it, having had to play it to get the very name of their order!

Not sure how that connects to what I’d written.

degrees of evil

 

[Michael16]

I totally love it when @George720 speaks. It’s like speaking with a Desert Father.

 

[dochawk]

A question I have is: What’s the beef with the Russians? If I’m not mistaken, isn’t it because the Russian Church declared itself the New Rome after Constantinople fell in 1453 and possibly declared itself an autocephalous Patriarchate?

Russia’s Toma is from the EP, though some would argue tainted by circumstance (The EP was in Moscow and out of funds needed to return home. All of a sudden, he had funds and Moscow had a Toma . . .).

It seems to me (and others will disagree) that the problem comes from the ROC being Russian first, and seeing everything else through that eye.

 

[Michael16]

@dochawk,

That sucks. The ROC should be a Church first, not Russian. I find it funny though. I remember reading somewhere that the ROC eventually became a department of the Imperial Russian government.

Don’t know if that’s true.

I’m really sorry doc, that Rome hasn’t been fair to you ECs for as long as it has been.

Hopefully, with V2 and the ecumenism with the East; that real respect as Sister Churches will become a reality.

 

[George720]

I thought it was the Roman Church that disrupted the unity by changing the Nicene Creed when its added the filioque?

The Latin Bishops with Papal blessing added the Filioque to the Creed, excommunicated Constantinople for removing the Filioque from the Creed, and precipitated the Great Schism…

And your reply to this is: “Not really”???

And the basis for this addition to the one Creed that unites all Christendom is your assertion that it is theologically true???

So that now on this basis we can all add anything we want to the One Creed that unites Christians in all times and places as long as we think that whatever it might be that we add is theological true???

The simple and single thing that Rome did was wrong, and precipitated a thousand year schism between Rome and the East, and Rome’s reply to being called out on the matter is: “Not really”???

And instead of saying “We’re sorry… Forgive us… We were wrong…” Rome says it is only for the Latin Creed, and not for the other Creeds, and besides we were theologically right???

I mean, it is just such an obvious matter… And to back it up only as far as is absolutely necessary and claim theological correctness… Lord have Mercy!

Forgive my rant!

geo

 

[George720]

Or maybe you’re just interpreting it that way…

That is one of the basic problems with the Scholastic approach - It is logic based and relies on the competition of competing ideas and the debating skills requisite to their imposition, and then the argument from Papal Infallibility and the nose-high superiority and condescension of the upper class…

The other basic problem is that arguments logically proven can then be logically disproven… Which raises hob with dogmatics…

But triumphal overlording upon your “opponent” serves no purpose that serves humility…

We can be friends here and talk to one another…

geo

 

[dochawk]

That sucks. The ROC should be a Church first, not Russian. I find it funny though. I remember reading somewhere that the ROC eventually became a department of the Imperial Russian government.

Don’t know if that’s true.

for all intents and purposes, it was a department of the imperial bureaucracy for a long time. It then had a distinct lack of control of itself under communism, to the point that ROCOR broke away and only re-established communion in the last couple foyers.

 

[EndTimes]

The ROC should be a Church first, not Russian.

They’re an Apostolic capital C Church which exists mostly in Russia…

The enemies of Christ have tried for centuries to destroy it.

_