Is there a real chance of communion between the Catholic Church and the orthodox?

[dochawk]

Excuse my ignorance, but what does “iirc” mean? I’m still learning texting abbreviations.

If I ReCall

ISTM is It Seems to Me

IMHO is In My Humble Opinion (personally, I tend to use IM!HO :crazy_face

And then there are extended versions of more common ones, like my favorite, ROFLMCLAO (adding My Cute Little __ Off)

 

[Gab123]

I believe that the Pope of Rome has a special “Petrine Ministry” to “strengthen the brethren.” If by Vicar of Christ on earth you mean universal, supreme and immediate jurisdiction over the whole Church, no.

You keep repeating “universal, and immediate jurisdiction over the whole Church”. Jesus is the Head of the entire Church. Jesus put Peter in charge of The whole Church. The Pope is in charge of the central government of the Church, but this in the context of the Catholic principle of subsidiarity, meaning that the local church has authority with local issues that fall under the jurisdiction of the local bishop.

Unlike the Eastern Orthodox who are in communion with Rome, the schismatic Orthodox not only reject the Pope, they call him a heretic. They completely glaze over the Scriptures where it says that the Church is a body with many parts, and not all can be eyes, or ears or head. . . .

Anyone who is Orthodox reading this should join an . . . community that is in union with the pope.

 

[ziapueblo]

You keep repeating “universal, and immediate jurisdiction over the whole Church”.

Christ is the head of the Church but does not the Catholic Church view the Pope as having universal jurisdiction?

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter’s successor, “is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful.” “For the Roman Pontiff [emphasis mine], by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered [emphasis mine].”

Anyone who is Orthodox reading this should join an Orthodox community that is in union with the pope.

Quite laughable! You disregard what Rome teaches about the Orthodox Church.

ZP

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Oh thank you. I’m slowly becoming text literate.

 

[Gab123]

This poster manages to keep lowering the bar for uncharitable behavior

I didn’t mean to be uncharitable, just sharing reality. here is a common view of Catholicism and the pope from Orthodox groups in schism from Rome:

 

[Isaac14]

Anyone who is Orthodox reading this should join an Orthodox community that is in union with the pope.

And yet according to your own Canon law, us “schismatic” Orthodox are welcome to commune in the Catholic Church. This would indicate to me that the Catholic Church views us “schismatics” much more charitably than you do.

 

[Gab123]

And yet according to your own Canon law, us “schismatic” Orthodox are welcome to commune in the Catholic Church.

again, the popes and the Catholic Church has bent over backward to unify East and West. I hope Imlive to see the union of both East and West.

 

[Gab123]

Christ is the head of the Church but does not the Catholic Church view the Pope as having universal jurisdiction?

Again, the Pope as Vicar of Christ is the head of the visible Church, yet, individual bishops have jurisdiction in their own dioceses. The pope does not micromanage. For example, The Roman Catholic bishop of Milwaukee has jurisdiction in his region, while the Roman Catholic bishop of San Diego has jurisdiction in his region.

Catholics attracted to Orthodox liturgy should not leave the Catholic Church, they should go to Eastern Orthodox communities in union with the Vicar of Christ.

 

[ziapueblo]

And these two videos are supposed to be the view of all of Orthodoxy towards the Catholic Church?

ZP

 

[ziapueblo]

Again, the Pope as Vicar of Christ is the head of the visible Church, yet, individual bishops have jurisdiction in their own dioceses.

Yet the Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 882 again states the Pope of Rome “ . . . has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered.”

For example, The Roman Catholic bishop of Milwaukee has jurisdiction in his region, while the Roman Catholic bishop of San Diego has jurisdiction in his region.

I realize this but again, CCC 883

Catholics attracted to Orthodox liturgy should not leave the Catholic Church, they should go to Eastern Orthodox communities in union with the Vicar of Christ.

One should not be attracted to Liturgy alone. If one wants to be Byzantine they need to “go native” and live the Byzantine lifestyle: liturgically, theologically and spiritually. Plus, the Eastern Catholic Churches are much more than a pleasant Liturgy. As a former Byzantine Catholic, my former parish was full of disenfranchised Roman Catholics, that the parish has unfortunately become a refugee camp for Roman Catholics who have no desire to actually be Eastern. They are Roman Catholics who worship as Orthodox but are theologically Latin.

again, the popes and the Catholic Church has bent over backward to unify East and West.

You’re saying that the East has done nothing in these efforts? You need to read the documents that have been put together by the Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church.

ZP

 

[dochawk]

I didn’t mean to be uncharitable, just sharing reality. here is a common view of Catholicism and the pope from Orthodox groups in schism from Rome:

Yet the very phrasing you use is how Rome asks us not to speak . . .

 

[dochawk]

Oh thank you. I’m slowly becoming text literate.

These are more pre-internet and usenet, which were generally just acronyms, as opposed to the flat-out, well, dorktype of the cell phone text message.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Catholics attracted to Orthodox liturgy should not leave the Catholic Church, they should go to Eastern Orthodox communities in union with the Vicar of Christ.

Are you referring to the Eastern Catholic Churches?

 

[Margaret_Ann]

On another thread someone posted a link to a letter written by 2 Orthodox bishops about 6-7 years ago to Pope Francis. The beginning started off charitably but the rest of it - !!! (Think of Apoc. 10: 9-10)

Seriously, I had to stop reading it.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Thank you.

 

[George720]

(post withdrawn by author, will be automatically deleted in 24 hours unless flagged)

Doc - Hats off to ya!

You da Man!!

Sometimes it is really hard to not respond in kind…

Ya done did good!!

geo - Sitting at your feet!

 

[AlNg]

here is a common view of Catholicism and the pope from Orthodox groups in schism from Rome:

And as well, I have posted a common view of the Russian Orthodox Church from Catholic groups in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic church. There is even a Catholic Church that has a mural of Putin burning in hell and Catholics are praying in front of it.

 

[Gab123]

As a former Byzantine Catholic, my former parish was full of disenfranchised Roman Catholics, that the parish has unfortunately become a refugee camp for Roman Catholics who have no desire to actually be Eastern. They are Roman Catholics who worship as Orthodox but are theologically Latin.

I think there is a thirst for reverence in the liturgy which is often lacking in many Catholic parishes, resulting in Catholics attending the Traditional Latin Mass or switching over to a Byzantine rite in hopes of experiencing a sense of reverence and beauty. This is all well and good, yet obviously it is all absolutely meaningless if such liturgies do not lead to a transformation of heart.

One can easily confuse religiosity with holiness and sanctity; participating in pious religious activities and growing foot-long beards, yet remaining the same selfish human being, full of resentments, unforgiveness and thinking one is holier than the other. This is the example Christ gave, comparing the repentant publican at the back of the temple with the proud Pharisee who was always talking about God.

Following and imitating Christ is not about attending inspirational liturgies that give comfort, but rather about participating in the liturgy in order to have one’s heart transformed through God’s sanctifying grace received through the sacrament.

We receive God’s grace and truth and life in the liturgy at the mass in order to bring that grace, truth and light into the world and share it with those who lack it. In other words, one can travel far distances to attend a beautiful inspiring liturgy, but if that grace does not transform, it is all pointless. That same grace is available at a liberal Novus Ordo parish, the one with the PizzaHut architecture. A simple, humble repentant soul seeking God is transformed and made holy regardless if it be at a simple Nous Ordo mass or a high mass with the liturgy filled with bells trumpets.

After all, the first Christians did not have beautiful churches or elaborate liturgies, yet the grace of the sacrament was there.

Thus Christ with a commanding exhortation took aim at those religious characters 2,000 years ago who confused religiosity and knowledge of the law, thinking that it was holiness and closeness to God:

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.“

 

[ziapueblo]

I agree with what you say about the Liturgy. As St John of Kronstadt wrote:

“the Divine Liturgy is truly a heavenly service upon earth, during which God Himself, in a particular, immediate, and most close manner, is present and dwells with men, being Himself the invisible Celebrant of the service, offering and being offered. There is nothing upon earth holier, higher, grander, more solemn, more life-giving than the Liturgy . . . When the Lord descended upon Mount Sinai the Hebrew people were ordered to previously prepare and cleanse themselves. In the Divine service we have not a lesser event than God’s descent upon Mount Sinai, but a greater one: here before us is the very face of God the Lawgiver.” (My Life in Christ, p.390)

And:

“In the Tradition of the Eastern Orthodox Church, doctrine and worship are inseparable. Worship is, in a certain sense, doctrinal testimony, reference to the events of Revelation. This, ‘dogmas are not abstract ideas in and for themselves but revealed and saving truths and realities intended to bring mankind into communion with God.’ One could say without hesitation that, according to Orthodox understanding, the fullness of theological thought is found in the worship of the Church. This is why the term Orthodoxy is understood by many not as ‘right opinion,’ but as ‘right doxology,’ [that is,] ‘right worship.’” Constantine Scouteris, Ecclesial Being: Contributions to Theological Dialogue (South Canaan: Mount Thabor Publishing, 2005), 88.

ZP

 

[AlNg]

As St John of Kronstadt wrote:

“the Divine Liturgy is truly a heavenly service upon eart

Unfortunately, Catholics require submission to the universal supremacy and jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff which entails recognition of his Supreme authority to change the Liturgy.