Is there a real chance of communion between the Catholic Church and the orthodox?

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OrbisNonSufficit said:
Yes, that is true and sad. But nothing about teaching. I agree that abuses should be fought against… but that’s it kinda.
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The notion that the discipline of the Church could be harmful is heretical according to Auctorem Fidei.

This is why I ask: how Amoris Lætitia could, in any way, be harmful?
 
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Isearch said:
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OrbisNonSufficit:
Yes, that is true and sad. But nothing about teaching. I agree that abuses should be fought against… but that’s it kinda.
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The notion that the discipline of the Church could be harmful is heretical according to Auctorem Fidei.

This is why I ask: how Amoris Lætitia could, in any way, be harmful?
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AL is not canon law. Hence it can be harmful. It violates the infallible decisions of the council of Trent and the canonical guidelines that follow from the logic of the infallible teaching of Trent concerning the indissolubility of marriage and the necessity to be in a state of grace to receive Holy Communion.
 
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OrbisNonSufficit said:
I understand that, but fact this also applies to widowers (especially excommunication by fourth marriage) is not as standard. After all, there is no marriage in afterlife as noted by our Lord. There is even scenario where they name 7 brothers marrying one woman, and yet Lord does not tell them to stop after 3… this is one Eastern practice I can’t get my head around.
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These are Canons to guide the Church, not understood as the Latin Church seems to understand Canons - eg As the IMPOSITION OF CANON LAW, and the need thereby for exact definitions so that priests and parishioners can know exactly what is and what is not legally mandated as enjoined or forbidden… This kind of legal imposition of Canon Law under the AUTHORITY of the Church is foreign to Orthodoxy… In all these matters, Ekonomia is the rule when issues arise… The only question is what contributes to the Salvation of the souls involved… And the Canons are a sure guide for such guidance, but generally are not imposed as a matter of the IMPOSITION of CANON LAW under the AUTHORITY of the Church… That kind of thinking is simply foreign to the EOC…

Just another fyi that is at odds between our Churches…

geo
 
George720 said:
In all these matters, Ekonomia is the rule when issues arise…
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Yet historically, Emperors were deposed for such action. I know there are exceptions to laws, but if there are too many, then law is not a law but a guideline… guidelines are helpful and prudent, but laws are needed. I wonder when did East start viewing law this way, as historically insistence on following it was there. Exceptions were made, but they were exceptions. Latin Church views law as binding unless some conditions that would logically nullify it apply- and while we don’t lax it as much, we still view exceptions as legitimate. Dispensations exist and are part of the law, not outside it.
 
dochawk said:
but this was beyond Okonomia
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How so? In Latin Church this would have been allowed, so it surely is nothing dogmatic neither explicit Divine Law. Ekonomia can hence be applied- not saying it should, but it surely can.
 
The second and third marriages are by Ekonomia. The fourth is never permitted in the East. To the point of deposing deposing the emperor.

I really can’t remember whether the patriarch had permitted the attempted fourth marriage or not.

The second marriage is usually/often permitted, the third sometimes/rarely. Neither is “by right”.
 
Are you saying that practice of allowing 4th marriage does not exist, or that even theoretically Ekonomia can never permit 4th marriage?
 
OrbisNonSufficit said:
Are you saying that practice of allowing 4th marriage does not exist, or that even theoretically Ekonomia can never permit 4th marriage?
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The practice of permitting a 4th marriage does not exist.
I know of no one in a 4th marriage…
I know of a fair number of second marriages…
And extremely few third ones…
No fourth…

Theoretical Ekonomia is often but vain and trivial pursuit…

Baptism by triple immersion in water is Christ’s Baptism…
Baptism in sand is not…
Yet there has been one baptism in sand that I know of…

geo
 
George720 said:
Yet there has been one baptism in sand that I know of…
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You are obviously a born sucker for a good story…
OR
I thought you would never ask!

So three teenagers, one pagan and two Christian, went on a hike in the deserts of Egypt long ago, and got turned around and were lost, and the further they walked, the more lost they became, and by the time they had figured out how to get back, they were far from back, had run out of food and water for well over a week, in searing heat and dehydration… And finally, the pagan kid collapsed, and said to the other two: “Look - You two go on without me - I am done-for, and cannot survive anyway…” And the two Christians refused him, and said they were done-for too, and really had no way to make it back either, so poorly was their condition… And so they sat down and waited to die…

Then the pagan kid said: “Look - If I am going to die, at least I want to die as a Christian!” And the other two said: “We cannot baptize you without water, and if we had water, we could make it back…” So he countered: “Why not baptize me with sand? Is not the Christian God able to baptize with sand when there is no water?”

So the kids did a little Baptism with sand for their pagan friend so he could die a Christian… They did it as best as they could remember the Service, and when they had finished, the Pagan filled with Energy and Joy, and ran for help and came back with water and food, and all three were saved…

So the leader of the two then went to his Priest to confess what he had done, doing a Service without being ordained… Even the Service of Baptism… And the Priest went to the Bishop, who sent for the boy… And he said: "Look - You did a good thing, and so bring your newly baptized friend here and we will complete the Baptism you began for him, and give him Communion… And this they did, and that kid became a Priest later… Because he had initiative…

I mean, I think it’s a good story!

geo
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OrbisNonSufficit said:
Are you saying that practice of allowing 4th marriage does not exist, or that even theoretically Ekonomia can never permit 4th marriage?
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Yes, that is the Eastern position.

The second and third themselves are only available through Ekonomia (OK, how many ways have I spelled that so far in this thread? 🤔 That word has about as many English spellings as Uhzrod, or as Shakespeare used for his own name . . .).

The second is common, the third pushing it, and a fourth is universally accepted as= too far (kind of like the boar and the helicopter, I suppose . . .)
 
dochawk said:
Yes, that is the Eastern position.
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I see. Thank you.
dochawk said:
(OK, how many ways have I spelled that so far in this thread? 🤔 That word has about as many English spellings as Uhzrod, or as Shakespeare used for his own name . . .)
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😃 important is we know what we mean. I heard someone simply use economy to describe it too and there was no misunderstanding either. It’s pretty cool how such word has so many spellings. And funny how we all tend to use different ones and even alternate between them.
 
Was it Twain who cautioned not to trust anyone who only had one way to spell his name?

:roll_eyes: 🤣
 
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