Is there a scheduled Papal TLM?

[AJV]

I do not understand. Please explain.

The Ritus says that the deacon should “go with the Subdeacon from the left to the place of the Gospel, against the altar,* towards the people*, where with the Subdeacon holding the book in the middle between two Acolytes holding lit candles, (he) says: The Lord be you…” But the common posture is reading the Gospel facing (liturgical) north- which kind of does not keep with a strict reading? But the way I’ve seen the rubric reconciled is that it is particular and applicable only in cases where the Gospel is/was read in the middle of the congregation.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

The Ritus says that the deacon should “go with the Subdeacon from the left to the place of the Gospel, against the altar,* towards the people*, where with the Subdeacon holding the book in the middle between two Acolytes holding lit candles, (he) says: The Lord be you…” But the common posture is reading the Gospel facing (liturgical) north- which kind of does not keep with a strict reading? But the way I’ve seen the rubric reconciled is that it is particular and applicable only in cases where the Gospel is/was read in the middle of the congregation.

I could imagine various reasons for the sloppy compliance, one of the more interesting/amusing being that so long as the deacon is facing at least one degree less than perpendicular he actually is facing the people (as opposed to the altar) when facing north.

Other explanations might involve mistakes that grew into customs or conflicting rubrics found in different books (in some other rites, the directions of one book took precedence over those of another because of the difficulty in harmonizing the two).

 

[AJV]

I could imagine various reasons for the sloppy compliance, one of the more interesting/amusing being that so long as the deacon is facing at least one degree less than perpendicular he actually is facing the people (as opposed to the altar) when facing north.

Other explanations might involve mistakes that grew into customs or conflicting rubrics found in different books (in some other rites, the directions of one book took precedence over those of another because of the difficulty in harmonizing the two).

Yes, it is so. The rubric followed is that of the Caeremonial rather than the Missal.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Yes, it is so. The rubric followed is that of the Caeremonial rather than the Missal.

Might you be able to post the two rubrics so we can see how they differ? I always enjoy liturgical minutiae.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

Please be respectful of your fellow posters by not hijacking threads. If you wish to discuss side issues start new threads. Thank you.

 

[Aslieas]

I like those “ostentatious medieval trappings” thank you very much. :yup: :yup: :yup:

Catholig

P.s. the wink is for charity (i.e. I’m not saying it in a snide voice) - the nods are how I feel.

Well, they sound nice to me, but I have no idea what any of you guys are talking about! (embarrassing!) I would be a little confused if I saw the Pope wearing a tiara. I would have a hard time explaining to my friends that the Pope is still seated quite soundly on his rocker and is not experiencing “delusions of grandeur.” There aren’t many Catholics around here, or there are few who profess to be Catholic in public, so nearly everyone I know would be asking me to tell them why the pope is parading around with “ostentatious medieval trappings.”
Will someone please explain to me what these items are for? And what is going to happen in September?! I keep seeing posts that mention September 14 like everybody knows what grand event will happen then, but I am clueless.

 

[AJV]

Well, they sound nice to me, but I have no idea what any of you guys are talking about! (embarrassing!) I would be a little confused if I saw the Pope wearing a tiara. I would have a hard time explaining to my friends that the Pope is still seated quite soundly on his rocker and is not experiencing “delusions of grandeur.” There aren’t many Catholics around here, or there are few who profess to be Catholic in public, so nearly everyone I know would be asking me to tell them why the pope is parading around with “ostentatious medieval trappings.”
Will someone please explain to me what these items are for? And what is going to happen in September?! I keep seeing posts that mention September 14 like everybody knows what grand event will happen then, but I am clueless.

September 14 (Exaltation of the Holy Cross) is the date when the recent Motu Proprio takes effect.

Which items are you referring to?

[Andreas Hofer, you have a new pm]

 

[Caesar]

There are rumors from Rome (courtesy of Fr. Z) that Pope Benedict might celebrate a Mass in the Old Rite on the First Sunday of Advent.

If, and I say if, this happens, I highly doubt we will see the full ceremonial form of the Solemn Papal Mass, which was hard enough to do back in the days before the Novus Ordo (hence it was only used on the most solemn of occaision, a couple times a year at most). There is a Papal Low Mass that could be used, or there could be a Mass celebrated in the presence of the Pope (nowadays with concelebration such Masses are rare in the Novus Ordo, but it was once common for some Masses to be celebrated in the presence of a Bishop, with some extra ceremonial bits). Also, the Pope could celebrate a normal Pontifical Mass.

 

[Pope_Noah_I]

I do not see why the Pope would not have full Papal Ceremonial. He’s the Pope! I think, since it would be the first time in some 30 years that we’ve seen a Pope celebrate the TLM, it should be a special occasion. But, that’s just me.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

If the Pope does celebrate the TLM, I hope that he would bust out all of the “medieval trappings”. It is sad that they were done away with at all.

 

[Caesar]

I do not see why the Pope would not have full Papal Ceremonial. He’s the Pope! I think, since it would be the first time in some 30 years that we’ve seen a Pope celebrate the TLM, it should be a special occasion. But, that’s just me.

My doubts are because of logistics. Have you ever watched some of the videos on Youtube of the Papal Coronations (I posted one of Pius XII, and there is a series of the Coronation ceremonies of John XXIII) and noticed how, at times, the everyone seems to be all over the place? Thats because they were. The full-blown Papal ceremonial was difficult enough before Vatican II- I just can’t see the Pope’s Master of Ceremonies and the clergy of the Basilica being able to pull it off today.

 

[Caesar]

Here are some resources on the Papal ceremonies if anyone wants them:

Missa coram summo pontifice - Mass in the presence of the Pope
Rubrics and explanations of a Mass said in the presence of the Pope. Perhaps Pope Benedict will choose this route.

Ceremonies of Holy Week in Rome
An excellent book by the Bishop of Pella detailing the ceremonies of Holy Week in Rome in the mid-1800s. Wonderful details and information not just on Papal Masses but on the Tridentine Liturgy itself.

More to come, maybe tomorrow.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

There are no plans for the Pope to celebrate a public TLM in September. The schedule has already came out as per the liturgical celebrations.

I would say that you will see him celebrate it one day in the near future as an example for the other Bishops to follow, but it will take a heck of a lot of planning and involvement with the FSSP- because I am pretty sure Rome has forgotten tradition- and in the words of Marcel Lefebvre, “They will one day come to us to recall tradition.”

Ken

It looks to me as though we haven’t forgotten anything because the pope says the TLM was never abrogated. Your slander against Rome is uncalled for.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

September 14 (Exaltation of the Holy Cross) is the date when the recent Motu Proprio takes effect.

Which items are you referring to?

[Andreas Hofer, you have a new pm]

Is that on the new calendar or on the old?

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

I doubt that Pontiff would choose to violate a rubric; however, as Supreme Legislator he certainly has the right to do so.

Especially when he is trying to correct the violation of the rubrics by allowing faithful Catholics to go back to orthodoxy.

 

[LuxAurumque]

Is that on the new calendar or on the old?

The same feast occurs in both calendars.