Is there a sinister connection between Charismatic Renewal and Medjugorje?

[Graing]

Going to Med. is not being disobedient.

It is if you are clergy and you are implying support for the visions, as has been stated. It is also dangerous if you are attending services that are other than diocesan services. There have been plenty of invalid sacraments administered there. Sometimes those receiving were unaware, sometimes they were.

Again I just don’t understand what the harm is in waiting until (if ever) the Church gives its blessing. What is it about Medj that you could not find at Lourdes or Fatima if you must visit a site? Or your own local eucharistic adoration chapel?

 

[Shoshana]

It is if you are clergy and you are implying support for the visions, as has been stated.

And it was reported by the companions of the cross that the opposite was true.

It is also dangerous if you are attending services that are other than diocesan services. There have been plenty of invalid sacraments administered there. Sometimes those receiving were unaware, sometimes they were.

Invalid sacraments? Only if you change the wording of the rite…other than that, please state more clearly what you are trying to say.

Again I just don’t understand what the harm is in waiting until (if ever) the Church gives its blessing. What is it about Medj that you could not find at Lourdes or Fatima if you must visit a site? Or your own local eucharistic adoration chapel?

I will never go. But I do not judge people who do…there has been a lot of conversions reported and many, many confessions.

 

[Graing]

Here is some clarification for you.

First of all, regarding obedience of clergy:

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, has intervened four times through two of its Secretaries, while the Prefect, Cardinal Ratzinger, also made an important intervention.
In 1985, Msgr. Alberto Bovone notified the Secretary of the Bishops’ Conference of Italy not to organize official pilgrimages to Medjugorje.
In 1995, Msgr. Tarcisio Bertone wrote to the bishop of Langres, Msgr. Leon Taverdet, and repeated the same to Msgr. Lucien Daloz of Besançon, France, who were interested in knowing the position of the Holy See on Medjugorje.
Finally, in 1998, the same Secretary wrote to Msgr. Gilbert Aubry, bishop of Reunion. All these letters emphasized that pilgrimages, whether private or public, are not allowed if they presuppose the authenticity of the apparitions, since this would be in contradiction to the declaration of the Bishops’ Conference of Yugoslavia.

About invalid sacraments:

There exists a problem in this diocese of Mostar-Duvno which in recent years has practically precipitated into a schism. At least eight Franciscan priests, who have rebelled against the decision of the Holy See to transfer a certain number of parishes administered by the Franciscans to the diocesan priests, have been expelled from the Franciscan Order and suspended ‘a divinis’. In spite of this, they have occupied at least five parishes through force, and continue to exercise sacred functions. They invalidly assist at marriages, hear confessions without canonical faculties and invalidly confer the sacrament of confirmation. Three years ago they even invited a deacon of the Old-Catholic Church who falsely presented himself as a bishop, to preside at a confirmation and he “confirmed” about 800 young people in three parishes.
Two of these expelled priests sought after episcopal consecration from Swiss bishop of the Old-Catholic Church, Hans Gerny, yet without any result.
So many invalid sacraments, so much disobedience, violence, sacrilege, disorder, irregularities, and not a single “message” from tens of thousands of “apparitions” has been directed towards eliminating these scandals.

This is all from the official website of the diocese:
cbismo.com/index.php?mod=vijest&vijest=101

Which has authority, moreso than ‘Companions of the Cross’.

I hope I have answered your questions. Can you answer mine about why the interest in Medjugorge when there are beautiful Church approved sites like Lourdes and Fatima? Or a much closer visit to your local adoration chapel?

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Here is some clarification for you.

First of all, regarding obedience of clergy:

About invalid sacraments:

This is all from the official website of the diocese:
cbismo.com/index.php?mod=vijest&vijest=101

Which has authority, moreso than ‘Companions of the Cross’.

I hope I have answered your questions. Can you answer mine about why the interest in Medjugorge when there are beautiful Church approved sites like Lourdes and Fatima? Or a much closer visit to your local adoration chapel?

Thank you. I know I have read this, but was unable to find it. Being computer illiterate, and not knowing how to transfer documents, etc. I hesitate to bring up or say, I have read it. As that would be self serving. suffice to say, Rome has spoken and I will obey. Again, thank you.

Getting back to the topic of the original thread itself. My only answer is and will remain,***NO ***there is no sinister plot. Conspiracy theorist seem to abound around every corner. This is just one more.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Lepanto]

Again I just don’t understand what the harm is in waiting until (if ever) the Church gives its blessing. What is it about Medj that you could not find at Lourdes or Fatima if you must visit a site? Or your own local eucharistic adoration chapel?

A whole Medj pilgrimage industry has sprung up, and these tour promoters of course pu$h their trip$ to Medj. It really has taken on a life of its own.

Go to Fatima, Lourdes, or Guadalupe instead!

 

[Lepanto]

When the Magisterium asks the clergy not to go, and I am clergy, I obey. I do have a vow of obedience to my bishop and by extension to the magisterium.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

I salute you, Deacon Ed B.

 

[Shoshana]

Here is some clarification for you.

First of all, regarding obedience of clergy:

About invalid sacraments:

This is all from the official website of the diocese:
cbismo.com/index.php?mod=vijest&vijest=101

Which has authority, moreso than ‘Companions of the Cross’.

I hope I have answered your questions. Can you answer mine about why the interest in Medjugorge when there are beautiful Church approved sites like Lourdes and Fatima? Or a much closer visit to your local adoration chapel?

I would be wise to read exactly what is written:

Finally, in 1998, the same Secretary wrote to Msgr. Gilbert Aubry, bishop of Reunion. All these letters emphasized that pilgrimages, whether private or public, are not allowed if they presuppose the authenticity of the apparitions, since this would be in contradiction to the declaration of the Bishops’ Conference of Yugoslavia.

And this is what the Companions of the Cross has written:

“…concerning pilgrimages to Medugorje which take place in a private manner, **this Congregation holds that they are
permitted, on the condition that they not be considered a validation of events in progress **and which still call for
examination by the Church.” (Tarcisio Cardinal Bertone Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the
Faith, 26 May 1998)

There is no dichotomy here at all…

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Go to Fatima, Lourdes, or Guadalupe instead!

I have been to each of these. For me personally, Fatima is my favorite. I don’t know why, it Just is. This is not to say that I did not find the others spiritually meaningful, because they most definitely were. I can say, WOW, those baths at Lourdes are COLD. It literally took my breath away. When I got back to where I would dress again, (we were wrapped in towels going into the baths) in our cubicles only about 15 feet away, I was completely dry. Others with our group reported the same experience.

I salute you, Deacon Ed B.

Thank YOU…
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Shoshana]

I hope I have answered your questions. Can you answer mine about why the interest in Medjugorge when there are beautiful Church approved sites like Lourdes and Fatima? Or a much closer visit to your local adoration chapel?

I have not been to any Marian sites at all. Lourdes would probably be my favourite as I am French and have a devotion to St Bernadette from childhood. As I have stated before, I will never to to Med. at all.

I have been to the Holy Land twice. Received a great physical healing there (Where Jesus wept).

I also adore the Blessed Sacrament and received a healing there (a kidney stone the size of a loonie that just went away). Let alone any spiritual or psychological healings.There is no greater gift than Jesus in the BS. I cannot think of a greater gift.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I have not been to any Marian sites at all. Lourdes would probably be my favourite as I am French and have a devotion to St Bernadette from childhood. As I have stated before, I will never to to Med. at all.

I have been to the Holy Land twice. Received a great physical healing there (Where Jesus wept).

I also adore the Blessed Sacrament and received a healing there (a kidney stone the size of a loonie that just went away). Let alone any spiritual or psychological healings.There is no greater gift than Jesus in the BS. I cannot think of a greater gift.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

There is no greater gift than Jesus in the BS. I cannot think of a greater gift.

You have just summed up the entire teaching of the Catholic Church. The Eucharist is the sum and substance of everything Catholic. That is why we are called a Eucharistic People of God. The only thing Mary does at any of these apparition sites is to do the same thing she said at the wedding feast of Cana. This has been her entire message to us through the millennia… DO WHATEVER HE TELLS YOU TO DO. Yes, there have been healings, but those healings all come to us through Jesus, who is present in the Eucharist in the fullness of his body, blood, soul and divinity. What people find meaningful at the apparition sites is the public outpouring of faith by those present. Prayerfully, there should be more of that in front of and at any Eucharistic Chapel
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Jimdandy]

So, how is it that this thread is allowed when this Catholic forum forbids it???

I do not understand this forum at all.

Medjugorje is a great GIFT OF GRACE from God

God is sending Our Mother to us-if you do not believe this it is your sad loss, and it is your free choice.

Go, this Grace will not always be as abundant.

To go on a pilgrimage there is not being disobedient .That ignorant thinking really saddens me.

 

[Graing]

So, how is it that this thread is allowed when this Catholic forum forbids it???

I do not understand this forum at all.

Medjugorje is a great GIFT OF GRACE from God

God is sending Our Mother to us-if you do not believe this it is your sad loss, and it is your free choice.

Go, this Grace will not always be as abundant.

To go on a pilgrimage there is not being disobedient .That ignorant thinking really saddens me.

I am not sure as this has strayed off topic now. It is not for you to decide if it is a great gift of grace from God. We look for the Magesterium for such decisions.

I have no sad loss as I am devoted to Our Lady. The disposition of Medjugorge based on the eventual obedience of the seers in agreeing to the bishop’s request to cease or the spontaneous end to their ‘visions’ will not affect my devotion to God, Our Lady, the Church or my faith in any way. Would a negative outcome affect yours?

I am also not ignorant. I believe you are missing the finer points of the coversation - namely obedience with respect to clergy.

All these letters emphasized that pilgrimages, whether private or public, are not allowed if they presuppose the authenticity of the apparitions, since this would be in contradiction to the declaration of the Bishops’ Conference of Yugoslavia.

 

[Shoshana]

I
I am also not ignorant. I believe you are missing the finer points of the coversation - namely obedience with respect to clergy.

Again you misread that quote and you are not the authority to translate it. There is nothing in this quote that stops the clergy from going. Those who go probably do wait for the Church’s stand on it. Nothing stops them from going. Read Fr Groeschel’s book 'The Silent voice (something like that) ’ and you will see he does not condemn Med. You might be better to take the good out of it instead of being so critical because some day you may have to eat your words.

I repeat, you are not the official translator fo that quote and I, for one, will not listen to you. I would rather listen to an expert like Groeschel than someone who has no clue. I, for one, will not judge those who are taking the good out of it.

 

[Graing]

Again you misread that quote and you are not the authority to translate it. There is nothing in this quote that stops the clergy from going. Those who go probably do wait for the Church’s stand on it. Nothing stops them from going. Read Fr Groeschel’s book 'The Silent voice (something like that) ’ and you will see he does not condemn Med. You might be better to take the good out of it instead of being so critical because some day you may have to eat your words.

I repeat, you are not the official translator fo that quote and I, for one, will not listen to you. I would rather listen to an expert like Groeschel than someone who has no clue. I, for one, will not judge those who are taking the good out of it.

The quote is pretty clear. I am not translating it. I am not the judge. I am just showing you what the diocese of Mostar-Duvno, who has authority, says about it.

All these letters emphasized that pilgrimages, whether private or public, are not allowed if they presuppose the authenticity of the apparitions, since this would be in contradiction to the declaration of the Bishops’ Conference of Yugoslavia.

How much clearer can it be? Are pilgrimages allowed? Sure as long as they do not imply that the apparitions are authentic. You can listen to whoever you want, I don’t care if you go or not. I am just telling you what the official word from the Church is as there has been so much confusion.

So if you don’t want to listen to me, fine. I’m not too worried about that either. In the end it is a private revelation either way. And you do understand that belief in private revelations is not required correct?

I just can’t seem to get an answer to why all the hub-bub over this. Why can’t people, if they must follow such a devotion, follow Fatima, Lourdes, or Guadalupe until Medj is resolved?

But as you seem to be getting nastier with each post, I will bid you good day sir.

 

[Shoshana]

The quote is pretty clear. I am not translating it. I am not the judge. I am just showing you what the diocese of Mostar-Duvno, who has authority, says about it.

How much clearer can it be? Are pilgrimages allowed? Sure as long as they do not imply that the apparitions are authentic. You can listen to whoever you want, I don’t care if you go or not. I am just telling you what the official word from the Church is as there has been so much confusion.

Well, my interpretation of that quote and mine are opposite. Let us leave it at that. I believe in obedience thoroughly as I have been in direction for over 20 years.

So if you don’t want to listen to me, fine. I’m not too worried about that either. In the end it is a private revelation either way. And you do understand that belief in private revelations is not required correct?

Yes, I am very much aware of private revelation.

I just can’t seem to get an answer to why all the hub-bub over this. Why can’t people, if they must follow such a devotion, follow Fatima, Lourdes, or Guadalupe until Medj is resolved?

Well, there is some truth to this but…there are some it is important to them. Fr Groeschel himself has many passages concerning Med. As i have said I will not go. But I will not make a big deal over all of this. Id there is truth to the apparitions, I won’t need to apologize to Our Lady. People and the magisterium had trouble with lourdes and Fatima and denounced the authority also. But the revelation were very short compared to Med. And yes, there was obedience on the part of the seers. It is here I would have trouble with the seers in Med.

But as you seem to be getting nastier with each post, I will bid you good day sir.

I am not nasty and I am not a sir. I am only stating as stronly as you are the statement you make as not being totally right. As long as clergy go just for devotion but does not teach or promote the messages given by a supposed Mary, well, I have no problem with that. The statement says the very same thing. Nothing stops them from going…

 

[Graing]

I am not nasty and I am not a sir. I am only stating as stronly as you are the statement you make as not being totally right. As long as clergy go just for devotion but does not teach or promote the messages given by a supposed Mary, well, I have no problem with that. The statement says the very same thing. Nothing stops them from going…

I apologize and stand corrected ma’am

As for nasty…

I repeat, you are not the official translator fo that quote **and I, for one, will not listen to you. **I would rather listen to an expert like Groeschel than someone who has no clue.

That didn’t sound nasty to you? Did to me ma’am, but maybe I am thin skinned?

In the end I am not really sure we disagree too much. If by some chance the Church has a change of heart on Medj, I am not concerned in the least that Our Lady will be miffed at me for a healthy dose of skepticism that accompanies obedience to the Church. All I have been trying to stress all along is that the link I posted a while back is the official word from the Church in that it is from the diocese and the diocese is currently in charge. Statement of fact. No opinion involved in that. I am not some apparition cop telling you to stay away from Medj. Do as you please. I just like to make sure the facts are out on the table.

And I don’t think we’re supposed to be talking about Medj anyway.

Goodnight and I hope your anger at me has calmed down

Love ya!

 

[revelations]

If you believe in the medjugore apparitions, that’s fine. If you don’t, that’s fine too.

I’ve really prayed on this stuff for a while, and thought about it for a long time. It was a big issue for me during my conversion journey, i didn’t know what to believe. I was afraid i was missing out on something huge. Soon, i learned that the biggest miracle in the world happens for us every sunday. I will offer my reflections, in the goal of perhaps helping others to look at these things in the right light.

First we must always trust in the word of Jesus, and the word of God. Holy Scripture is 100% authenticated to be God’s spoken and inspired word. Valtorta, vassula, Luisa Piccaretta, and other popular private revelations are not. Now, that isn’t to say they aren’t good. Many people find their spirituality and relationship to Jesus is deepened when they read these sorts of things. Same goes for Medjuogore.

Many people are converted, and experience renewals of faith when they visit. I have not yet gone, and hope to visit in the future to discern for myself. Imagine if the apostles had waited for the church at their time to come around to approving Jesus as the messiah?

I’m not saying that something profound and deep is happening there, nor am I saying that the church’s judgment is incorrect to the level of the Sanhedrin 2000 years ago. The church’s judgment is wise and prudent, and I agree with it wholeheartedly. What is important to realize is that the church hasn’t condemned medjugore, but at the same time hasn’t fully approved it either. Therefore it is incorrect to label medj a false apparition until the Holy Church declares it to be so. The fact that it has been so long and they have not yet declared it false (as they have for other sites) is interesting in and of itself.

So, so long as the Blessed Virgin doesn’t start giving messages encouraging sin, disobedience, or contradictory things, I will leave it to the last day to find out if it was true or not. Either way, we will meet Christ that day. I feel as if medj is being used to win new apostles to the faith, and to bring the lost back. For already strong catholics, the blessed sacrament is all I need personally. But for those who don’t have deep faith, perhaps a little sensation is required.

I will finish with something i received through prayer, and i hope you all take it and keep it close to your hearts when considering matters such as this,

"hold fast to my word" for the word is the only true God inspired text we have. In reading holy scripture we are listening to God directly, and we learn to hear God’s voice in our lives.

In Prayer,

revelations

 

[revelations]

Oh, also,

Those who believe in medj, please have copurtesy for those who choose to hold fast to the church’s teachings. Pray that the holy spirit will eventually make all things come to light and we will all be englightened.

Those who vehemently disbelieve in medj, please have courtesy for those who believe in it. Pray for them that their discernment will be true and they will be protected from any wayward teaching.

But most of all, let’s us not argue about this or get mad at anyone. That is silly.

-revelations

 

[Joe_Kelley]

. . .Why can’t people, if they must follow such a devotion, follow Fatima, Lourdes, or Guadalupe until Medj is resolved? . . …

On the other hand, why travel halfway around the world to see where Mary was. I’d rather go a couple of miles to where Jesus will be at 9:20 tomorrow morning.