Is There a Soul?

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I’ve been working with scientists all my life, and am too convinced by the cogency of the scientific account of the universe to cave in to Granny’s magical mystery tour of “Adam and Eve were our sole first parents.”

I also work with my fellow theologians, very few of whom buy into the magical mystery tour any more. Of course, most CAFers reject most of my fellow theologians as heretics who are halfway to hell anyway (I’ve been told that explicitly).

If I could only jettison evilushun and accept a 6,000 year old earth, I might be able to buy into the “all-humans-and-only-humans-have-immortal-souls” theory.

StAnastasia
It appears the idea that all humans do not possess souls jettisons logic.

If we posit the existence of humans with souls and some without souls, then we are equivocating on the term “human”.

At the very least, there exists a strong ambiguity with the term “human”, and a failure to give an essential definition of the word. Hence, any discussion about humans will be confused from the outset.
 
Correct, which is why I raised the question of DNA many posts ago.
Unless one chooses to believe that man (and woman) is nothing more than his biology, then the biological questions about DNA are not critical to arriving at an essential definition of “man”.
 
then the biological questions about DNA are not critical to arriving at an essential definition of “man”.
Biological questions about are relevant if you want to exclude some from possession of soul. You have to know where to draw the line of exclusion.
 
Biological questions about are relevant if you want to exclude some from possession of soul. You have to know where to draw the line of exclusion.
This begs the question.

Let’s look at it from another angle. You appear to want to draw a line between humans that have souls, and humans that don’t. The endeavor presumes you are already working with a definition of human by the mere fact you have raised such a question. And what would that definition be? And how did you arrive at it?

As an aside, the term “soul” has not been defined in the above problem. There is an assumption as to what is intended. This remains a problem to be addressed in itself. I use the term soul (psyche, anima) according to the traditional meaning as the principle of life. It is that which separates living from non-living things. Accordingly there are different grades of soul corresponding to the kind of life an organism possesses. To be living is tantamount to being “besouled.”

Man, who exhibits intellectual life in addition to nutritive and sensitive powers, possess an intellectual soul, which includes all the lower powers so implicated.
 
Yes.

Unfortunately, my spellchecker is not smart enough to know that rogue was the word I wanted, and not rouge.

But, that leads to an interesting speculation. I wonder if…all those stories that we’ve heard over the years about rogue elephants trampling Indian villagers to death - maybe they were actually pink elephants. :hmmm:
Speaking of, hear of the elephants avenging christians being persecuted? They’re time and target specific. images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.archdioceseofcolombo.com/images/Other/elephants_1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.archdioceseofcolombo.com/news.php%3Fid%3D851&usg=__XBWgwZydDo5WpFwoSAF1AL_wFf0=&h=563&w=750&sz=72&hl=en&start=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=kiQrzVohceCTKM:&tbnh=106&tbnw=141&prev=/images%3Fq%3Davenging%2Bchristian%2Belephants%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26ie%3DUTF-8%26tbs%3Disch:1
 
Not at all.
Okay, then. This means we must stop for some clarification. In post #173 you stated the following:

But I do see problems in claiming that “all humans and only humans have immortal souls.”

This seems to say, first, that you see problems with the claim that “all humans…have immortal souls.” I take it then, that rather then endeavoring to make a distinction among humans, you are denying the immortality of the human soul altogether, and without qualification. Is this correct?
 
This begs the question.

Let’s look at it from another angle. You appear to want to draw a line between humans that have souls, and humans that don’t. The endeavor presumes you are already working with a definition of human by the mere fact you have raised such a question. And what would that definition be? And how did you arrive at it?

As an aside, the term “soul” has not been defined in the above problem. There is an assumption as to what is intended. This remains a problem to be addressed in itself. I use the term soul (psyche, anima) according to the traditional meaning as the principle of life. It is that which separates living from non-living things. Accordingly there are different grades of soul corresponding to the kind of life an organism possesses. To be living is tantamount to being “besouled.”

Man, who exhibits intellectual life in addition to nutritive and sensitive powers, possess an intellectual soul, which includes all the lower powers so implicated.
Where does the term immaterial, immortal spiritual soul fit in?
 
Unless one chooses to believe that man (and woman) is nothing more than his biology, then the biological questions about DNA are not critical to arriving at an essential definition of “man”.
If I am understanding correctly, biological questions would only involve matter in human nature. However, to have human nature, there must be spirit/matter at least according to Catholic teaching.
 
It appears the idea that all humans do not possess souls jettisons logic.

If we posit the existence of humans with souls and some without souls, then we are equivocating on the term “human”.

At the very least, there exists a strong ambiguity with the term “human”, and a failure to give an essential definition of the word. Hence, any discussion about humans will be confused from the outset.
One of the meanings of equivocate is – " to avoid making an explicit statement" In my humble opinion, there is only one explicit definition of human person or human nature. Of course, there are many ways to say the one definition. How’s this one? In his own nature, the human person unites the spiritual and material realms. In other words, in no way can one posit, except in flights of fancy, humans with souls and some without souls.
 
Originally Posted by itinerant1
The evidence which you assume does not exist not only exists but it is conclusive.
ITINERANT1

On this very thread, you’ve made a very bold assertion that you possess conclusive evidence for the existence of an eternal soul.

I’ve asked you numerous times to produce this evidence and you’ve not produced any evidence, let alone conclusive evidence.

Am I the only one who is waiting for Intinerant1 to post the conclusive evidence of an eternal soul?

On a thread that discusses whether or not a soul exists, someone claims to have knowledge of conclusive evidence that proves the existence of a soul…surely others are anxious to see this evidence!

Am I the only one who is less than impressed with a person who claims to possess conclusive evidence, but then refuses to post the very evidence that he claims to have?

Itinerant1, in order to put this to rest, I suggest one of the following;
  1. You admit that you do not have any conclusive evidence for the existence of an eternal soul.
  2. You provide the conclusive evidence in question.
  3. You reply that you are making the choice to refuse my request and you will not post the conclusive evidence for the existence of an eternal soul.
Should you ignore my post, I’ll be certain that you don’t have any evidence and I’ll be left confused as to why you would have made such a claim.

Thank you, I look forward to the evidence, the admission or your refusal to post the evidence.
 
To the contrary, a concept of the soul that uses physical terms such as “quantum” is diametrically opposed to Greek body-soul dualism.

Quantum notions in regard to the soul are consistent with the Atomist tradition following Democritus and Lucretius, and finds its expression in modern times in those reductionist materialist psychologies of Watson, Skinner, and those other theories that identify the mind with brain states.

The reductionist view is consistent with the hypothesis that the human soul has evolved. However, the evolution of the soul contradicts the extreme dualism of Plato and Descartes, and the moderate dualism or moderate immaterialism of Aristotle and Aquinas.

The hypothesis that the human soul has evolved also contradicts Church doctrines that are de fide, as well as cognitive research that reveals the intellect and its activities to be radically different in kind from the cognitive abilities of non-human animals.
Good points. In addition. Matter can only evolve into matter. Matter cannot evolve into the spiritual. Somewhere along the line, I hope there is a list of the radically different activities of the spiritual soul. Intellect and will would be two powers. Note: I’m just beginning to understand how the will, located in the soul, is orientated to the highest good. This concept is fascinating to me.
 
Where does the term immaterial, immortal spiritual soul fit in?
And that, granny, is the million dollar question?

To properly understand “soul” one must first understand the Aristotelian-Thomistic doctrine hylomorphism, which involves the determinations of being in regard to all natural things. All things from trees to atoms are composed of two metaphysical constituents, substantial form (morphe, but more correctly eidos) and first matter (prima materia), and as “informed” is often referred to as “substantial matter”.

Form is non-physical or immaterial component of every physical thing. “Immaterial” in this context does not spiritual. It means not-physical and nothing substantially more. It is not exactly a “ratio”; it is the first determining principle and plan of structure.

Now that I have thoroughly confused you, we will take the hylomorphic doctrine and apply is consistently to living things. Living things possess self-motion while non-living matter is moved extrinsically by other forces. The principle of self-movement or life is the kind of form proper to organisms. We call this form or eidos, the psyche or “soul.”

The immaterial forms of living things are generated and corrupted through the natural processes of nature. In the case of man, we must posit a different grade of soul with a different grade of immateriality.

When substantial form is united to matter we have an individual substance, that which sub-stands, or stands under the appearances. In Kantian terminology, it is the noumenal reality which supports the phenomenal aspects of material being.

The form of man is an intellectual form. In-depth considerations of the nature of intellect and its activities, and its relation to the body, require us to posit the soul of man as not only immaterial, but as spiritual. (In general conversation, “immaterial” and “spiritual” are used interchangeably, and correctly so, and are they purely negative terms meaning not-material. The concepts are “negative” in nature since all knowledge begins with sense experience, and so we can have no direct knowledge of that which is not an object of sense perception. I am, however, stipulating in this post, a slightly different meaning for “spiritual”.)

The human soul, to continue, is an incomplete spiritual substance. It is incomplete because its nature is to be united and perfected by union with matter. In so far as it is a substance, it is unlike the souls or forms of non-intellectual organisms which are generated and corrupted along with the organism, but can subsist of itself. Accordingly, we say that the intellectual soul is spiritual and immortal.

This may be a lot to digest, but the key is understanding the philosophical terms, to which there is no easy road, only much intellectual effort. One cannot just read an explanation of the terms and think from that they got it. That is normal.

A great Arabian philosopher in the middle ages, I forget whether it was Averroes or Avicenna, said he had to read the Metaphysica of Aristotle 40 times before he understood it.
 
Itinerant1;
Should you ignore my post, I’ll be certain that you don’t have any evidence and I’ll be left confused as to why you would have made such a claim.
There you have it, I can’t help but feel that you’ve mislead me. 😦
 
Itinerant1;

There you have it, I can’t help but feel that you’ve mislead me. 😦
How can I have possibly misled you when you stated dogmatically that there is no evidence for the soul?

So, it sounds like you already have the answer you want. Correct?

Furthermore, skeptics generally cannot follow my arguments because they reason that since the soul or intellect cannot be observed or measured in the same way that brain processes can, then soul does not exist. That bit of reasoning is the classic non sequitur of metaphysical materialism.
 
Good points. In addition. Matter can only evolve into matter. Matter cannot evolve into the spiritual. Somewhere along the line, I hope there is a list of the radically different activities of the spiritual soul. Intellect and will would be two powers. Note: I’m just beginning to understand how the will, located in the soul, is orientated to the highest good. This concept is fascinating to me.
The will has or is the mind’s dynamic orientation toward the “good in general”. It is rational appetite. Under the dynamics of this orientation to the “good in general”, we choose individual goods presented by the intellect or reason.
 
So, it sounds like you already have the answer you want. Correct?
No, I wanted you to produce the conclusive evidence that you claimed to have, but you won’t post it.

I’m done asking, as it’s abundantly clear that you haven’t any conclusive evidence to post.
 
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