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flyersfan1088
Guest
Does such an approved form exist? I am desperately seeking the reverence to be found at a TLM, but I honestly think the latin would be its own distraction.
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freudmacher
Guest
I haven’t ever heard of one…doubt it is possible since they must follow the rubics when offering the mass, I have read that there were times that it was allowed.
Anyway, the latin is only a distraction at first. Once you are used to the missal, which is something that can worked on even outside of mass, the whole thing is smooth. When I first decided to start attending one, I thougth it was going to take years to get used to it and to be able to understand what was going on. But, it took a whole 3 or 4 Sundays and everything was great.
Anyway, the latin is only a distraction at first. Once you are used to the missal, which is something that can worked on even outside of mass, the whole thing is smooth. When I first decided to start attending one, I thougth it was going to take years to get used to it and to be able to understand what was going on. But, it took a whole 3 or 4 Sundays and everything was great.
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kleary
Guest
As the last poster mentioned the Latin only is a distraction at first because you are coming from what you are used to- worship in the vernacular. I know what it is to come from that for I did as well. The first time I attended the TLM I was lost because I tried so hard to follow every single word that was said and respond when it came time to.
However I will tell you this- and this is the truth. After a few weeks of attending I became an altar boy again at the age of 30. Within one year I was able to be Master of Ceremonies- and able to follow the Latin in the Roman Missal right up there at the altar with the priest and turn the pages of the missal for him.
Just give it time- do not worry about following along and responding just enjoy the solemnity and peace.
The TLM is not offered in the vernacular. At least not in the Catholic Church…the Old Catholics who rejected Vatican I and are schismatics, have the TLM in the vernacular languages.
Ken
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markadm
Guest
Somebody once mentioned a special indult before Vatican II for Croatia to have the TLM in Serbo-Croat, but that was the only thing I ever heard like that… 
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TNT
Guest
TLM=traditional LATIN Mass.
Latin is part of the defining of that Mass.
You might as well ask if we can have an AUTOmobile without an engine…No because AUTO defines it’s ability to move on its own power.
Further, it makes “Traditional” a useless term. It is “traditionally” said in Latin, not Italian or any other language.
Latin is part of the defining of that Mass.
You might as well ask if we can have an AUTOmobile without an engine…No because AUTO defines it’s ability to move on its own power.
Further, it makes “Traditional” a useless term. It is “traditionally” said in Latin, not Italian or any other language.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
Somebody once mentioned a special indult before Vatican II for Croatia to have the TLM in Serbo-Croat, but that was the only thing I ever heard like that.
It was in Slavonic, only spelled with Glagolitihic, rather than Cyrillic, characters.
It was used for CENTURIES before V2.
It was in Slavonic, only spelled with Glagolitihic, rather than Cyrillic, characters.
It was used for CENTURIES before V2.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
Further, it makes “Traditional” a useless term. It is “traditionally” said in Latin, not Italian or any other language.
It was originally traditionally celebrated in Greek, and probably in Aramaic before that.
It was originally traditionally celebrated in Greek, and probably in Aramaic before that.
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markadm
Guest
Gosh; fascinating. So, rather than it being an indult, it was “customary law”, hence not requiring an indult.
I’d never heard about Glagolithic before today!
You’ve got a point there. I still think the language argument is a shaky one, when trying to use it as a historical argument. I think it stands up better when we say “ah, but the normative language of the Church is Latin; and the editio typica of the Mass is in Latin”.
I think the TLM can stand up on its own anyway, regardless of the language. The aesthetic is not merely limited to the language the prayers are said in, but also the volume of them (more than the novus ordo), and–at times–the greater sensitivity they seem to have to the reality of faith about the Mass on which that aesthetic is based.
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Metaron
Guest
No, but the Anglican-Use Mass is a lot like a Tridentine English Mass.
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TNT
Guest
Very True Except the Consecration Form which is oh so NOM.
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palmas85
Guest
Why?
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markadm
Guest
To be honest, I would not like to see an English TLM (though I would love to see the NO Mass brought “in line” with the TLM), however I too find it distracting (because of a lack of Latin education) to have to follow along and flick pages. I suppose the benefit of Masses in English is that you do not need to read them; instead you can simply hear them. Compare the difference between the choir, aural, experience of the Breviary, and the reading, praying, kind.
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palmas85
Guest
I have never found the Latin distracting, but then again I pray during most of the Traditional Mass. The only times you hear most of what is said in the Traditional Mass is when you are a Server or at a dialogue Mass. It can be a bit odd in a High Mass where the Choir is chanting at a different pace then the Priest, but in those situations I either listen to the choir or immerse myself in prayer depending on my mood.
As I have noted before it is the Pauline Rite that pretty much requires the laity to move in lock step with the Priest, not the Traditional.
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Andreas_Hofer
Guest
Not quite. The mere fact of a practice’s long history does not establish it as custom. The main marker of custom, actually, is that it is NOT law - it grows up either beyond the law or even contrary to the law. This means that if something is actually legislated, it does not become a binding custom, no matter how long it has existed.
So, if in our locality we enforce a specific manner of incensation that is in conformity with but not required by the liturgical law, that enforcement by our community can attain the force of law after 30 years, or even sooner if it receives some sort of non-legislative approbation. If a rubric is on the books for 500 years, on the other hand, and then is dropped/changed, one cannot argue that we are justified in continuing the practice because of customary law; the practice would have to be reintroduced precisely as a custom now in order to eventually attain binding force.
Since I don’t remember the details of the history of the “Glagolithic use” of the Roman rite I can’t say for sure which category it falls into. If the Croats wanted a vernacular liturgy and asked for an indult to use one, that would be law and not custom. If they started using one and somewhere along the line the pope said “We can tolerate that,” it would be custom and survive of its own accord provided it was not suppressed by proper authority.
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flyersfan1088
Guest
Sorry, I thought it was self explanatory. I like to participate at Mass, and saying my own prayers is something I do at home. I don’t want to be a spectator, but a participant.
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markadm
Guest
Even with the the form of the Mass of Paul VI, I’d question the degree to which the faithful assembled are actually and actively “participating”.
I’m not trying to be trite or facetious, and I have little to base this on, but particularly when it comes to the canon, the Priest is the liturgical “actor” so to speak, acting in persona Christi, doing things on our behalf.
I’m sure I’m coming across all wrong, so I apologise. If someone has a grasp on what I’m trying to refer to, then please chime in.
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Darnok
Guest
Hi Everyone,
My ex-girlfriend actually told me she attended such a mass in southern L.A. (I think).
I’ve also thought that this whole thing with language is an odd one. Think of the “way old” days when a decision out of the Vatican would affect the whole of society. An historical example here is the Pope ordering a reworking of the calendar to start from the birth of Christ.
Now how this ties into the modern situation… Imagine the Vatican orders Latin be taught as a second language in Catholic grade schools everywhere in the world (where it’s possible to implement). Eventually when those kids grow up, Latin could almost be revived from being a dead language. How that would affect communication like reading encyclicals, listening to podcasts from the Vatican, attending mass.
Also in this day of easier transportation (ie. airplanes) this would to a degree help take down the language barrier.
My ex-girlfriend actually told me she attended such a mass in southern L.A. (I think).
I’ve also thought that this whole thing with language is an odd one. Think of the “way old” days when a decision out of the Vatican would affect the whole of society. An historical example here is the Pope ordering a reworking of the calendar to start from the birth of Christ.
Now how this ties into the modern situation… Imagine the Vatican orders Latin be taught as a second language in Catholic grade schools everywhere in the world (where it’s possible to implement). Eventually when those kids grow up, Latin could almost be revived from being a dead language. How that would affect communication like reading encyclicals, listening to podcasts from the Vatican, attending mass.
Also in this day of easier transportation (ie. airplanes) this would to a degree help take down the language barrier.
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Hijikata
Guest
How many TLM’s have you been to? So you have first hand experience that the latin is distracting, correct? There is no vernacular TLM, that is what the Novus Ordo Mass was created for in the Second Vatican Council. Leave the TLM how it is, we do not need to bring vernacular language into it.
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palmas85
Guest
How are you a participant at a Pauline Mass as opposed to the Traditional Mass? You say you say your own prayers at home. That is a very telling statement. If you don’t pray during the Mass what do you really do since the Mass itself is a prayer?. Standing, singing sitting and parroting responses could be termed participation, true. But equally so or even more so would be uniting yourself with the Priest and saying the prayers along with him, which is what most of us did and probably still do in the Traditional Mass. I have never been a spectator at one.
And I am far from unique in that regard. Sounds like you’ve been listening to some progressive propaganda my friend.
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jfallaw
Guest
I’m not just upset with Pope Whatsizname for using his God-given authority to change the Mass from Latin to whatever ‘vulgar’ tongues, I’m also pissed at whoever changed it INTO Latin from the Aramaic and/or Greek that the Apostles spoke!!! Anti-traditionalists!!!
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