Is there a way for a sin to become mortal by quantity alone?

[fakename]

Basically, can any sin that is venial be made mortal by just multiplying the number of times it is done?

I’m pretty sure not, but I just want to make sure.

 

[una_fides]

I don’t have any sources that come to mind that answer this specifically so I am basically firing off the cuff and speculating that perhaps there could be a case where a venial sin committed frequently enough could constitute a mortal sin such as one of neglect of a duty that if done once would be venial but when done repeatedly every day becomes serious neglect. Or for example, if one eats an extra couple pieces of cake with dinner one night perhaps that would be a venial sin in the gluttony category, but if he does this repeatedly every day, then perhaps that could constitute being serious enough so that it becomes mortal once he realizes he is being gluttonous but continues overeating regularly anyway. Again I’m speculating, but I would propose that in this case the moment the sin becomes mortal is when the person realizes the constant pattern of sinful behavior and sees the consequences it is causing but continues to do it anyway. The matter being consented to then changes from being an isolated instance to one of a regular pattern of substantially greater gravity because of the consequences. Again this is just a theory, and if the Church has taught anything contrary, I will happily recant and “burn” this idea entirely.

 

[Edmundus1581]

I would say “yes”.

I have some examples, but I will call them “grave matter”, rather than “mortal sins”, so as to distinguish the matter, from the knowledge and consent.

1. Ignoring others. If my child asks me to play with him, and I don’t because I’m watching the TV, or drinking beer, or for some other distraction. then that may (or may not), be a venial sin. If I do this repeatedly, for a month, and never play with my child, so that the child is deeply hurt, and I’ve lost his trust, then it may be grave matter.
2. Idleness. If I neglect a task at work because I’m browsing the internet then it may be a venial sin. If I do this repeatedly, for a month, so that after a month I’ve only done 10% of my required workload, then it may be grave matter.
3. Drinking. If I get moderately drunk once, then it is probably a venial sin. If I get drunk 7 nights a week, then it may be grave matter.

In each example I am assuming that the decision (to ignore the child, to browse the internet, to drink) was a isolated decision, made repeatedly, rather than a an overall intention.

Note that in each case I say it “*may” be grave matter". I personally think that each of these cases is grave matter, but I that is just my uninformed opinion. I would listen to any better informed responses.

An interesting question. I look forward to the other responses.

== Edit ==
Una Fide’s response was posted while I was composing this. I see that we have said almost exactly the same thing! Una Fides has suggested, where I haven’t, that it becomes grave matter when the person becomes aware of the problem and it’s consequences and doesn’t attempt to stop. I think I agree.

 

[Edmundus1581]

Looking at Una Fides’ and my similar opinions, it seems to me that the point at which repeated venial sins become grave matter (but not, necessarily, mortal sins) depends on the self-awareness of the individual. An extremely un-aware individual could neglect the child, or drink in excess, many times before becoming aware of the pattern, whereas someone with more awareness becomes aware earlier. The second person has more responsibility than the first to recognise and change their behaviour.

“The one to whom more is given, of him more is expected”.

 

[JRKH]

Basically, can any sin that is venial be made mortal by just multiplying the number of times it is done?

I’m pretty sure not, but I just want to make sure.

I am sure that many will disagree with me but I say yes.

There is no set number of times but constant repeating of a venial sin is like making a small cut on yourself - not mortal by itself, but how many small cuts does it take until you bleed to death, or get an infection that kills you?

Venial sin wounds charity - so says the Catechism. Contrition, that is repentance, and the commitment to “sin no more” are required for forgiveness - the closing of the wound.
Repeating the same sin begins to call into question the sincerity of the contrition. It becomes a “going through the motions” sort of thing where one is not truly contrite. This leads to hardness of heart and a replacing of Love of God with Love of self…

And Love is where it really hits home…

Love of God should mean that we do all in our power to NOT sin, even in small ways. Why? because we do not wish to disappoint our Love, who is God. The more we sin the more we turn from God. Sin enough - in small ways - and eventually we can find ourselves turned completely away from Him…**Then ** we commit the mortal sin of rejecting God altogether…We might not even realize we are doing it…But it does happen.

how many times have we heard or read about a person who just “drifts away from God” or “drifts away from the Church”. these people have probably not committed any “grievous” sin…They just “drifted”.

Keep God first. Love God with all your strength. Seek not to hurt Him (and yourself) in small ways and you won’t have to worry about too many little sins…

Peace
James

 

[una_fides]

1. Drinking. If I get moderately drunk once, then it is probably a venial sin. If I get drunk 7 nights a week, then it may be grave matter.

I would agree with pretty much everything said in the previous posts except this part about being drunk, unless you meant by “moderately drunk” as meaning buzzed but not intoxicated, but then the context doesn’t seem to fit exactly because then that would mean getting buzzed 7 nights a week, which would not necessarily be a mortal sin without some kind of other factor being involved.

Here is St Thomas Aquinas on getting drunk:
“it may happen that a man is well aware that the drink is immoderate and intoxicating, and yet he would rather be drunk than abstain from drink. Such a man is a drunkard properly speaking, because morals take their species not from things that occur accidentally and beside the intention, but from that which is directly intended. On this way drunkenness is a mortal sin, because then a man willingly and knowingly deprives himself of the use of reason, whereby he performs virtuous deeds and avoids sin, and thus he sins mortally by running the risk of falling into sin. For Ambrose says (De Patriarch. [De Abraham i.]): “We learn that we should shun drunkenness, which prevents us from avoiding grievous sins. For the things we avoid when sober, we unknowingly commit through drunkenness.” Therefore **drunkenness, properly speaking, is a mortal sin.”
**newadvent.org/summa/3150.htm

If this is an interesting topic for continued discussion, we should probably open up another thread to not detract from this one.

 

[Bookcat]

Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI

1. When does one commit a mortal sin?

1855-1861
1874

One commits a mortal sin when there are simultaneously present: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. This sin destroys charity in us, deprives us of sanctifying grace, and, if unrepented, leads us to the eternal death of hell. It can be forgiven in the ordinary way by means of the sacraments of Baptism and of Penance or Reconciliation.

1. When does one commit a venial sin?

1862-1864
1875

One commits a venial sin, which is essentially different from a mortal sin, when the matter involved is less serious or, even if it is grave, when full knowledge or complete consent are absent. Venial sin does not break the covenant with God but it weakens charity and manifests a disordered affection for created goods. It impedes the progress of a soul in the exercise of the virtues and in the practice of moral good. It merits temporal punishment which purifies.

---

The CCC note that: “Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin.” (hence one ought to avoid more and more such deliberate venial sins and to repent daily of ones sins…)

 

[fakename]

Well in essence, venial sins multiplied doesn’t equal a mortal sin. I’ve looked it up and its a magisterial teaching.

However, I agree w/what many people say here because they aren’t really saying that venial sins can be made mortal through quantity. They are saying that grave matter can be present by quantity. This I think, is perfectly reconcilable with both the idea that mortal sins don’t come about by addition and that venial sins dispose one to mortal sins.

Now correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure that if someone was to steal enough money over time to accumulate to a large sum, it would be a mortal sin not because venial sins added up but because the nature of so stealing is a serious damage to persons and society.

A sin cannot be made mortal or venial by circumstances just as as a man cannot become animal by having hooves or four legs. Only when those circumstances become essential to a mortal sin does the act become a mortal sin.

I think that’s an appropriate formulation no?

 

[Edmundus1581]

Well in essence, venial sins multiplied doesn’t equal a mortal sin. I’ve looked it up and its a magisterial teaching.

However, I agree w/what many people say here because they aren’t really saying that venial sins can be made mortal through quantity. They are saying that grave matter can be present by quantity. This I think, is perfectly reconcilable with both the idea that mortal sins don’t come about by addition and that venial sins dispose one to mortal sins.

Now correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure that if someone was to steal enough money over time to accumulate to a large sum, it would be a mortal sin not because venial sins added up but because the nature of so stealing is a serious damage to persons and society.

A sin cannot be made mortal or venial by circumstances just as as a man cannot become animal by having hooves or four legs. Only when those circumstances become essential to a mortal sin does the act become a mortal sin.

I think that’s an appropriate formulation no?

Thanks for reading and responding, fakename. I’m glad you found the magisterial teaching. I also agree that repeatedly stealing a small sum of money, until it becomes a large sum, and damaging to someone, that would be grave matter. That’s a very good example!

This has been an interesting discussion.

 

[Bookcat]

I also agree that repeatedly stealing a small sum of money, until it becomes a large sum, and damaging to someone, that would be grave matter. That’s a very good example!

.

The person is I would note intending there the larger grave matter …he is just choosing a “careful” means to get there.

(by the way “theft” is a bit more complicated subject to begin with --with various aspects as to what is grave or not).

 

[wcknight]

There is no way venial sins can add up to a mortal sin, even in the case of stealing small amounts that add up to affect someone gravely.

Even though amounts can accumulate to where it is gravely damaging to the victim, remember that for a mortal sin to occur, the sinner must also be aware that what they are doing is gravely damaging BEFORE they go ahead and commit the sin.

So unless the robber knows up front that he will be stealing small amounts at a time until he gravely affects the victim, he would still be only guilt of many venial sins.