Is there an end to this persecution complex?

[Lost_Wanderer]

I’ve seen more than several Catholics here now who do nothing but justify their position purely with phrases along the lines of “We must not be of the world”, “Secularists hate us so we must be right”, or “the gates of hell will not prevail so we’ll continue shooting ourselves in the foot”.

Whatever happened to defending our faith rationally? The Pope calls us the Religion of the Logos yet I still keep seeing people who deliberately undermine this. The worst part of my observation is that these people play the persecution card in defense of positions that are not even worth having.

Honestly, if these people are the future of apologetics, who needs atheists or even the gates of hell?

 

[NeedImprovement]

Of the three justifications you present, I would have a comment (coming from personal experience ) on the first one.

The most likely initial source from which

“We must not be of the world”,

is drawn , appears to be found in John 15:18-19

"If the world hates you, realize that it hated me first.

If you belonged to the world, the world would love its own; but because you do not belong to the world, and I have chosen you out of the world, the world hates you.

I remember several years ago, discussing with a Catholic chaplain I served under, a particular persecution which was being carried out against me in my apostolate ( this particular part of the apostolate involved bringing Holy Communion to the patients in a long-term & palliative care institution ) . Several employees of the institution (I think they might fit the “secularist” definition Lost Wanderer, - but it would be equally true to say it is the Institution in general which is also becoming more and more secularized) , decided they were going to raise a big noise about my bringing Holy Communion to the patients.

I listened to what the Chaplain (who had attended a ummm. . . “meeting” which had been held without my knowledge) recounted to me about the complaints two particular employees were pumping up in order to prevent from me bringing Holy Communion to their patients.

In response, I simply shrugged and said to him , " Well, persecutions are bound to come sooner or later - aren’t they ? " ( I figured I had him on that one because I knew he was no stranger to unjust persecutions himself ]) . When he’d finished laughing , he looked me in the eye and replied :

" Yes persecutions will come - but we’re not supposed to invite them ! "

I’ve always been grateful he said that to me. I think it helped define the line where rational and irrational are to remain separate. “Not inviting persecutions” in my opinion, fits with what our Blessed Lord told us in Chapter 10 of Matthew : Before confirming for us, the fact that persecutions would/will come, He traces out the proper attitude/approach we should have:

[Matt 10:16]

“Behold, I am sending you like sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and simple as doves.”

Maybe another way of saying this is : Don’t paint a bull’s eye on yourself and stand directly in the line of fire."

 

[BornAgain2010]

I’ve seen more than several Catholics here now who do nothing but justify their position purely with phrases along the lines of “We must not be of the world”, “Secularists hate us so we must be right”, or “the gates of hell will not prevail so we’ll continue shooting ourselves in the foot”.

Whatever happened to defending our faith rationally? The Pope calls us the Religion of the Logos yet I still keep seeing people who deliberately undermine this. The worst part of my observation is that these people play the persecution card in defense of positions that are not even worth having.

Honestly, if these people are the future of apologetics, who needs atheists or even the gates of hell?

The three quotations you mentioned sound like things Protestants would say. err…no offense, present company accepted. In my opinion, and I know Im gonna **** alot of people off when I say this. But I think Protestants give Christians a bad rep, especially Catholics. People see majority of non-denom, fellowship, evangelical, and fundamentalist (which seem to be the prevailing Protestant sects). People seem often see them as stubborn, holier than thou, condescending, etc. People see them and then overgeneralize. They think, ‘oh this brand of Christianity is bad, therefore all forms of Christianity are bad.’ Those that are uninformed tend to lump us all up together as being the same group and believing the same things. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Catholics and Protestants believe very different things. Even Protestants disagree with Protestants, Baptist vs Methodist, Lutheran vs Episcipalian, Presbyterian vs Adventist, the list goes on.

So to answer your question. I would say that there is persecution going on against Catholics, both here in America and abroad, but the more social attitudes of secularists towards Christians…some of that MAY have been self-inflicted. Still, there is no doubt that we experience persecution. Personally, I fight it as best, and as rationally as I can, and chalk the rest as coming with the territory.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Maybe another way of saying this is : Don’t paint a bull’s eye on yourself and stand directly in the line of fire."

Thanks for the verse, I’ll use it more next time. But God, to think those with a persecution complex like to say they’ve read the Bible.

 

[Crescentinus]

Lost Wanderer, do you know about the last acceptable prejudice in America?

 

[Burdensome1]

I’ve seen more than several Catholics here now

You seem to be confusing CAF with the Catholic Church. Thanks be to God this is not the case.

 

[severus68]

The three quotations you mentioned sound like things Protestants would say. err…no offense, present company accepted. In my opinion, and I know Im gonna **** alot of people off when I say this. But I think Protestants give Christians a bad rep, especially Catholics. People see majority of non-denom, fellowship, evangelical, and fundamentalist (which seem to be the prevailing Protestant sects). People seem often see them as stubborn, holier than thou, condescending, etc. People see them and then overgeneralize. They think, ‘oh this brand of Christianity is bad, therefore all forms of Christianity are bad.’ Those that are uninformed tend to lump us all up together as being the same group and believing the same things. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Catholics and Protestants believe very different things. Even Protestants disagree with Protestants, Baptist vs Methodist, Lutheran vs Episcipalian, Presbyterian vs Adventist, the list goes on.

So to answer your question. I would say that there is persecution going on against Catholics, both here in America and abroad, but the more social attitudes of secularists towards Christians…some of that MAY have been self-inflicted. Still, there is no doubt that we experience persecution. Personally, I fight it as best, and as rationally as I can, and chalk the rest as coming with the territory.

All Christians who are not Catholics are called Protestants. I think that “holier than thou” attitude is found in Catholics. There are fanatics to be found in every religion. I am of the view that Catholics will not look better to others by putting down other Christians, referring to the denominations as sects.

Its too easy to say we are persecuted and to look at ourselves as martyrs. They are a few real martyrs in this world but I would not say they are found in the US. Try China, try Pakistan.

 

[manualman]

Whatever happened to defending our faith rationally? The Pope calls us the Religion of the Logos yet I still keep seeing people who deliberately undermine this. The worst part of my observation is that these people play the persecution card in defense of positions that are not even worth having.

I find the generalizing confusing. Are you asserting that there are teachings of the catholic church “not worth having” or are you referring to private interpretations not necessarily teachings of the church. In other words, are we talking about contraception or Harry Potter?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I find the generalizing confusing. Are you asserting that there are teachings of the catholic church “not worth having” or are you referring to private interpretations not necessarily teachings of the church. In other words, are we talking about contraception or Harry Potter?

More of the latter (though not always about fantasy mind you ). I just can’t stand the fact that instead of bowing out and conceding with humility, so many fringe Catholics here play the persecution/separatist card.

 

[manualman]

Can you give a couple of example issues? Is it a “persecution complex” to object to, say, the HHS mandate from government officials that claim they are horrified by the idea of government imposing their views on abortion on the rest of the country, but proceeds to enact legislation that forces all people to pay for potentially abortive drugs for anybody who wants them. In other words, they’re forcing THEIR moral views on everybody. Calling that absurd hypocrisy is simply accurate, not a whining about persecution. Even then, maybe they’d have some sort of case if they were consistent in their approach about providing 100% coverage of “needed” medicines to all. But they’re not! Obamacare DOESN’T provide ‘free’ meds for almost any life threatening illness or condition, but it does for contraception. Unreal.

Is it a persecution complex to object to a political mentality that claims to highly value “diversity and tolerance” but proceeds to prohibit Catholic Charities from operating adoption agencies unless said agencies violate catholic teaching on who is a fit parent and who isn’t. THAT’s tolerance and diversity? As if said government control freaks couldn’t just open their own agencies? No, that’s not enough, they have to stamp out anyone who operates differently in the name of diversity. Nice logic.

I’d assert that the above is ACTUAL repression, not whining. But perhaps you are referring to some other issue?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Can you give a couple of example issues? Is it a “persecution complex” to object to, say, the HHS mandate from government officials that claim they are horrified by the idea of government imposing their views on abortion on the rest of the country, but proceeds to enact legislation that forces all people to pay for potentially abortive drugs for anybody who wants them. In other words, they’re forcing THEIR moral views on everybody. Calling that absurd hypocrisy is simply accurate, not a whining about persecution. Even then, maybe they’d have some sort of case if they were consistent in their approach about providing 100% coverage of “needed” medicines to all. But they’re not! Obamacare DOESN’T provide ‘free’ meds for almost any life threatening illness or condition, but it does for contraception. Unreal.

Don’t worry. Nothing on Obamacare.

Is it a persecution complex to object to a political mentality that claims to highly value “diversity and tolerance” but proceeds to prohibit Catholic Charities from operating adoption agencies unless said agencies violate catholic teaching on who is a fit parent and who isn’t. THAT’s tolerance and diversity? As if said government control freaks couldn’t just open their own agencies? No, that’s not enough, they have to stamp out anyone who operates differently in the name of diversity. Nice logic.

I’d assert that the above is ACTUAL repression, not whining. But perhaps you are referring to some other issue?

Other issue and perhaps something even more base:

“Why should we care about what atheists think? We are not of the world!” <— So-called ‘argument’ against having intellectual honesty and integrity alongside faith.

“So what if we turn people away? What if we cause trouble? Jesus Himself said He came with a sword.” <----- so-called justification for being as confrontational as possible in evangelization.

 

[manualman]

Thanks, I’ll shut up now. I agree with you on the specifics. St. Paul exhorts us to have answers for those who question our faith, not contempt. Good on ya.

 

[NeedImprovement]

. . .

“Why should we care about what atheists think? We are not of the world!” <— So-called ‘argument’ against having intellectual honesty and integrity alongside faith.

“So what if we turn people away? What if we cause trouble? Jesus Himself said He came with a sword.” <----- so-called justification for being as confrontational as possible in evangelization.

Where these “justifications” often fall apart is when they concern a person who is very dear to us , but who is seen to be holding that view which opposes our faith . Then, whether we can admit it or not, any twinge of honesty and/or integrity we might feel would tend to reflect the essence of the greater love expressed in our Blessed Lord’s words:

"In the same way, it is not the will of your Heavenly Father that even one of these little ones should perish."[Matt 18:14]