Is there an overemphasis of community in our Worship

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pnewton said:
I have found this to be a problem more here than in any parish. I guess it is easier to be judgemental when people are anonymous. I have also noticed here that this sort of condescending tone is pretty much a one way street.
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Did my post come off as condescending :confused: I didn’t mean it to. 😊🤷
 
anamchara said:
Did my post come off as condescending :confused: I didn’t mean it to. 😊🤷
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Oh, not. Not at all. I was just saying that you were right, people do often jumpt to conclusions. They do judge others based on silly things. I just noticed the judgementalism usually only goes one way. For example, those who receive communion in the hand never try to convert those who receive it on the tongue, but the reverse is not true.
 
anamchara said:
Yes, I’m aware of Cardinal Arinze but the problem is certain Catholics in general like to jump to conclusions about what is in the minds are hearts of their fellow Catholics and start accusing of them of being to self- focused in mass when they do things like hold hands during the Lords prayer or maybe like more guitar music at Mass etc.
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I have a friend who is a choir member in the local parish and has been for fifteen years. The choir stands off to the side of the altar and faces the congregation, the same way the priest does. I said to him once that he is in the position to observe people as the come to receive the Eucharist. This is the moment of highest worship and reverence. I asked him if he could tell in his opinion if based on body language, the way people move and act, that it looked like they were worshipping God. THe walk up and stick out their hands. Did they appear reverent to him? He is not a traditionalist. He thought for a minute and said, “They are not worshipping anything”. That is one man’s opinion. Now please contrast this vision to an altar rail with people on their knees. I’ll take the pre-1967 form. If this seems condescending I am sorry. Mother Teresa said the greatest tragedy she witnessed was Communion in the hand.
 
grandfather said:
I have a friend who is a choir member in the local parish and has been for fifteen years. The choir stands off to the side of the altar and faces the congregation, the same way the priest does. I said to him once that he is in the position to observe people as the come to receive the Eucharist. This is the moment of highest worship and reverence. I asked him if he could tell in his opinion if based on body language, the way people move and act, that it looked like they were worshipping God. THe walk up and stick out their hands. Did they appear reverent to him? He is not a traditionalist. He thought for a minute and said, “They are not worshipping anything”. That is one man’s opinion. Now please contrast this vision to an altar rail with people on their knees. I’ll take the pre-1967 form. If this seems condescending I am sorry. Mother Teresa said the greatest tragedy she witnessed was Communion in the hand.
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When I had to serve as cantor for a few Masses, I started observing the folks in the communion line. My observations pretty much match what your friend’s were. There was also the painful-to-watch taking gum out of mouth and hiding it, hands not even folded, people shaking hands and greeting the persons across the aisle and others with blank expressions.

Oddly enough, when I received my First Holy Communion in 1976, we used the communion rail. For awhile, in the late 1970s adn early 1980s, we used the communion rail at my parish. There was something truly extraordinary about receiving Holy Communion while kneeling. I, too, head about Mother Teresa’s comments.
 
grandfather said:
Did they appear reverent to him? He is not a traditionalist. He thought for a minute and said, “They are not worshipping anything”. That is one man’s opinion. Now please contrast this vision to an altar rail with people on their knees. I’ll take the pre-1967 form.
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Having served at many masses pre-1967 I had the same vantage point as the priest. And without making any judgments whatsoever as to what was in people’s hearts or minds, overall their expressions were no different than what I see now when acting as an extraordinary minister.

The overwhelming majority of people then and now, have no particular look or reverence or recognition of what is really going on. It was only the notable few that genuinely seem to be “really present” in their reception.

That may well be different at TLM’s now, percentage-wise, but if so I would attribute that solely to the fact that the “pew potatoes” don’t go to TLM’s; the people at TLM’s now are people who have a specific preference for that form and the overall level of perceived reverence may well be higher.

I don’t believe for a second though that it has the least bit to do with either the EF or being on one’s knees. If we were to change back tomorrow to the EF as the universal form I am quite sure you would see the same look on those kneeling at the communion rail that they currently have when receiving standing at the OF.

It’s not the form at all in my opinion. It’s the people. And as I said before, those who are prone to be lackadaisical will be so in either form; those who are prone to devotion will be so in either form. The form we choose is nothing more than the vehicle in which God speaks most clearly to us and to which we feel drawn most clearly to him. And it is when we start believing that one form is inherently better, or that the people who attend one form are inherently holier, that we start to put ourselves in great trouble.

Peace,
 
ncjohn said:
The overwhelming majority of people then and now, have no particular look or reverence or recognition of what is really going on. It was only the notable few that genuinely seem to be “really present” in their reception.
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I don’t think many people have been trained to have a set expression on their face during prayer. You *might *be able to tell if they are distracted, but I don’t think a “blank” expression reveals much unless you know that person well. I often pray when using the computer (to read the prayer off the screen). I look just the same then as when I am working. I might close my eyes, though, but I’m not going to do that when walking or about to walk in a communion line.

Maybe it matters that I was raised with a tendency to hide prayer, and not publicly express it, though.:hmmm:
 
grandfather said:
rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2007/10/recordar-es-vivir.html

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2007/07/what-is-there-in-name.html

Take a look at the photos. You now have a choice.
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Your joking right? Those are the worst and most unfair pictures I’ve seen yet.
Those who choose to view videos/photos on the net should be aware:
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.they are the work of individuals (generally anonymous) whose agenda and objectivity is generally unknown to the viewer,
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.they are not necessarily accompanied by verifiable documentation that the persons or places depicted are those named,
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.the context of events depicted may or may not be as described and the viewer is not always privy to sufficient information to have assurances in that regard,
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.superimposed captioning to replace a poor or absent audio track has inherent risks as regards accuracy.
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Just a thought :whistle:
 
Pug said:
I don’t think many people have been trained to have a set expression on their face during prayer. You *might *be able to tell if they are distracted, but I don’t think a “blank” expression reveals much unless you know that person well. I often pray when using the computer (to read the prayer off the screen). I look just the same then as when I am working. I might close my eyes, though, but I’m not going to do that when walking or about to walk in a communion line.

Maybe it matters that I was raised with a tendency to hide prayer, and not publicly express it, though.:hmmm:
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I totally agree, and it was part of the point I was trying to make. We can’t tell by looking at anyone’s expression what is going on in their heart or mind. And my personal experience is that the expressions look the same now as they did when I saw them at pre-1967 Masses.

What one can often correlate though is when someone is “putting on a show” of piety with the way they express themselves in words outside of that action. I know a great many of us have had the experience of seeing the very pious-appearing person who after Mass is either boasting about their piety or is commenting about everyone else’s lack of it. While by no means universal, or confined to those who attend one form or the other, the “pride” in their humility and piety creates a negative impression for those observing the behavior and reflects badly on many who are quite likely showing genuine reverence and piety. Unfortunately, just as it is the “squeaky wheel that gets the grease”, it is also the vocally pious person whose attitude gets noticed, just as it is the extreme at the other end that gets noticed and pointed out as the example for the other “side”, such as the charicatures thrown up in the pictures in the post after your post as the options one has to choose from in Mass forms. :rolleyes:

Peace,
 
anamchara said:
Your joking right? Those are the worst and most unfair pictures I’ve seen yet.

Just a thought :whistle:
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Which pictures in particular do you think were fakes? They are not unfair if they are real.

In my parish priests on the altar have dressed as Santa, and as a clown in costume, not simply the red nose, the whole works and no liturgical vestments. I saw an Irish priest wearing an Indian head dress, full feathers. Costumes aside most of the pictures are what things normally look like, that go on all the time. The jusxtaposition site between the NO and TLM is accurate. If you don’t agree where have you been for the past 40 years? People make comparisons of the rites giving their opinions all the time in magazines and sites like this. A picture is worth a thousand words. It is not me who is joking and what goes on is not funny, ridiculous and tragic, but not funny.
 
grandfather said:
Which pictures in particular do you think were fakes? They are not unfair if they are real.

comparing one picture with a different one was unfair. Not all Churches have the sort of money or building that was shown in the more fancier Churches. Also, some of those did not look like a Mass but retreats. So comparing a retreat with a TLM Mass is hardly fair. Another thing to note with these types of pictures is that often we find out the people shown are not even Catholic but are Anglican or something else (the guy on the lawn). The pictures they choose to show for the Ordinary is ridiculous.

The blogger is pushing a traditional agenda. We know nothing about any of the pictures, where or whys etc…
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In a strange way there was a better understanding of community in the Latin Mass. All of God’s community could celebrate together regardless of nationality or language. At least you knew the Mass wherever you were. With the vernacular Mass, here in Ireland, we now have an English, Irish or Polish Mass, which separates us from each other.

I hope that makes sense.

I looked at the pictures :rotfl:

BTW I love my Mass regardless of which language is used.
 
grandfather said:
Which pictures in particular do you think were fakes? They are not unfair if they are real.

In my parish priests on the altar have dressed as Santa, and as a clown in costume, not simply the red nose, the whole works and no liturgical vestments. I saw an Irish priest wearing an Indian head dress, full feathers. Costumes aside most of the pictures are what things normally look like, that go on all the time. The jusxtaposition site between the NO and TLM is accurate. If you don’t agree where have you been for the past 40 years? People make comparisons of the rites giving their opinions all the time in magazines and sites like this. A picture is worth a thousand words. It is not me who is joking and what goes on is not funny, ridiculous and tragic, but not funny.
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So you think that there are only the extremes and that reverent Masses of both types don’t occur that aren’t at those extremes?

In that case, a picture of the drunken priest who could barely get the words out at a lot of the TLM’s I served at would be a fair picture to post as the example of what people have to choose from, alongside a Papal OF in full splendor?

I’ve read a lot of your very reasonable posts and even when I may not agree with your preference or conclusion I can respect the points you make. This kind of approach doesn’t honor either your preference or your knowledge though as any rational person knows that neither set of pictures are the norms for the forms they are supposed represent the choices for.

Peace,
 
feargalmac said:
In a strange way there was a better understanding of community in the Latin Mass. All of God’s community could celebrate together regardless of nationality or language. At least you knew the Mass wherever you were. With the vernacular Mass, here in Ireland, we now have an English, Irish or Polish Mass, which separates us from each other.

I hope that makes sense.

I looked at the pictures :rotfl:

BTW I love my Mass regardless of which language is used.
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It’s really nice in Spanish 🙂 you made sense, there is something to be said about using one language.
 
pnewton said:
Rock solid evidence as confirmed by…Anonymous? What in the heck do any of them have to do with the topic. It seems like this is just another attempt to insert the usual “my Mass is better than your Mass” rhetoric.
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What is sooo wrong about adhering to Church tradition? :eek: Remember, the two pillars of the Catholic Church are Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Protestants are sola scriptura and reject wholesale the notion of tradition.
 
benedictgal said:
What is sooo wrong about adhering to Church tradition? :eek: Remember, the two pillars of the Catholic Church are Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Protestants are sola scriptura and reject wholesale the notion of tradition.
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But “Tradition” is not only found in “tradition”. Those who love a reverently done OF Mass love “Tradition” just as much as any “traditionalist”.

It is only when one starts to idolize the form, feeling the need to denigrate an equally valid form sanctioned by the Church, that people are going to start taking offense. For some reason that seems to happen more in one direction than the other, though that is certainly not at all exclusively true. And unfortunately one of the ways that the denigration is done is the “too much community” accusation.

Yes, there can be too much community focus, but that doesn’t mean that it comes at the expense of losing focus on God. Just as a similar judgment that people who prefer the EF are too rigid and seem “holier than thou” is not a valid judgment.

A very wise woman once posted a comparison to the way her two kids show off to show how much they love her. Except that it’s really to prove to each other that she loves one or the other of them better. In the end that’s what we tend to see here; two groups of Catholics trying to show that God loves them better.

It’s a very sad commentary on people claiming to follow Jesus Christ, the Prince of Peace.
 
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