Is there any difference between a chimpanzee and a human?"

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What I’m saying is that DNA studies and archeology seems to indicate:
  • All of us came from a very small group of people.
  • All of us came from a single place, probobly in Africa
Agreed
  • Abstract thinking came with Homo Sapiens, not hominid ancestors
    All of this tends to support Genesis.
There’s evidence for Neanderthal grave sites. They also had speech. This has been debated on other threads so I’ll leave it at that. But I think it does relate and says something about the variations of the Hominidae family.
 
Agreed

There’s evidence for Neanderthal grave sites. They also had speech. This has been debated on other threads so I’ll leave it at that. But I think it does relate and says something about the variations of the Hominidae family.
No, the current thinking is that these were not ceremonial burial sites.
 
No, the current thinking is that these were not ceremonial burial sites.
Would the operative word be “ceremonial”?

Ceremonial includes far more features than the instinctive actions of sentient animals or pre-humans, e.g., variations of the Hominidae family. Please consider that in ancient times ceremonial burial included the pyramids which held not only royal treasure but also the favorite pets of royalty. “A queen’s pet gazelle was readied for eternity with the same lavish care as a member of the royal family. In fine, blue-trimmed bandages and a custom-made wooden coffin, it accompanied its owner to the grave in about 945 B.C.” Picture caption, National Geographic, November 2009.

Wouldn’t it be reasonable to conclude that ancient humans recognized the existence of the spiritual and its place within the human realm?

This first observation is not to take apart the Egyptian belief system. Rather, it points directly to a key difference between brute animals and humans. Humans not only have the intellectual ability to recognize the spiritual but they can choose their own individual response and actions in accord with their particular view of the spiritual.
 
“26 And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. 27 And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.” -Genesis 1:26-27

Isn’t the “image and likeness” about our spiritual forms, and not our physical anyway? I mean, we don’t believe that Scripture is referring to physical traits such as opposable thumbs.
 
Hi everyone. Just a few links that may be of benefit to people.
  1. Human-chimp genetic similarity
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolutionary_genetics#Sequence_divergence_between_humans_and_apes

The draft sequence of the common chimpanzee genome published in the summer 2005 showed the regions that are similar enough to be aligned with one another account for 2400 million of the human genome’s 3164.7 million bases[18] – that is, 75.8% of the genome. This 75.8% of the human genome is 1.23% different from the chimpanzee genome in single nucleotide polymorphisms[18] (changes of single DNA “letters” in the genome). Another type of difference, called indels (insertions/deletions) account for another ~3 % difference between the alignable sequences.[18] In addition, variation in copy number of large segments (> 20 kb) of similar DNA sequence provides a further 2.7% difference between the two species.[19] Hence the total similarity of the genomes could be as low as about 70%.
  1. The family tree of human beings
When I was a teenager, the common view among anthropologists was that orang-utans, gorillas and chimps belonged in one family (Pongidae) while humans belonged in another (Hominidae). That is a minority view now as DNA evidence seems to suggest that chimps and humans are closer than chimps and gorillas. However, a new paper argues that the interpretation of the DNA evidence is mistaken.

Here’s a link to a very original paper by a Chinese researcher, Shi Huang, who has examined various kinds of primate DNA and formulated a bold new maximum genetic diversity hypothesis, which appears to successfully account for the peculiar anomalies and internal contradictions in the molecular clock dating of splits between animal lineages. Huang does a good job of exposing the flaws in molecular clock dating.
Huang’s surprising conclusion is that orangutans, gorillas and chimps are all pongids (apes), while humans belong to a separate group which diverged from the apes 17.3 million years ago. Huang has carefully checked his maximum genetic diversity hypothesis against other mammalian lineages, and it agrees well with the paleontological data.

precedings.nature.com/documents/3794/version/1
  1. Mitochondrial Adam and Eve
For my part, I favor Germain Grisez’s suggestion that Adam was the original designated head of the human race, and that he made the fateful decision that we know today as the fall. Anyway, here’s what the genetic evidence says.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

Mitochondrial Eve is believed to have lived between 150,000 to 250,000 years BP, probably in East Africa, in the region of Tanzania and areas to the immediate south and west.[1] She lived during a period of time when Homo sapiens were developing as a species separate from other hominid species. She lived in a population of between perhaps 4000 to 5000 females capable of producing offspring at any given time.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Adam

Y-chromosomal Adam is named after the Biblical Adam. While the name implies that Y-chromosomal Adam was the only living male of his time, it is important to understand that he probably co-existed with a large population of human males. None of Y-chromosomal Adam’s male contemporaries, however, have a direct unbroken male line to the present day. Either their lines died out entirely, or at least one generation within each line produced only daughters, who could not pass their male parents’ and ancestors’ Y-chromosomes to their own children.

Y-chromosomal Adam probably lived between 60,000 and 90,000 years ago, judging from molecular clock and genetic marker studies. While their descendants certainly became close intimates, Y-chromosomal Adam and mitochondrial Eve are separated by tens of thousands of years.
  1. Human uniqueness
bbsonline.org/Preprints/Penn-01062006/Referees/Penn-01062006_bbs-preprint.htm

To be published in Behavioral and Brain Sciences (in press)
Cambridge University Press 2007

Darwin’s mistake: Explaining the discontinuity between human and nonhuman minds
by Derek C. Penn, Keith J. Holyoak and Daniel J. Povinelli

There is a profound functional discontinuity between human and nonhuman minds. We argue that this discontinuity pervades nearly every domain of cognition and runs much deeper than even the spectacular scaffolding provided by language or culture can explain. We hypothesize that the cognitive discontinuity between human and nonhuman animals is largely due to the degree to which human and nonhuman minds are able to approximate the higher-order, systematic, relational capabilities of a physical symbol system…

While the advantages of symbolic communication are enormous, the adaptive advantages of being able to reason in a relational fashion have a certain primacy over the communicative function of language. It is quite difficult to imagine how communicating in hierarchically-structured sentences would be of any use without the ability to entertain hierarchically-structured thoughts. But it is quite easy to imagine how the ability to reason about higher-order relations—particularly causal and mentalistic relations—might be highly adaptive without the ability to communicate those thoughts to anyone else.

…In any case, regardless of which factors most strongly contributed to the unique evolution of the human brain, language alone is no longer directly and entirely responsible for the functional discontinuity between extant human and nonhuman minds.

…Our most important claim in this paper is simply that whatever “good trick” (Dennett 1996) was responsible for the advent of human beings’ ability to reinterpret the world in a symbolic-relational fashion, it only evolved in one lineage—ours. Nonhuman animals didn’t (and still don’t) get it.

I hope these links help. Enjoy!
 
Howdy granny,

The major difference imo is in how things become remembered. I hope I can articulate this idea. The animal soul lacking the higher faculties remembers things according to the emotional content involved. This is good for them because it is a reliable tool for preservation. The intensity of fear in life threatening situations are recalled involuntarilly from the emotional memory at the slightest cue or similarity. A smell, a rythm, similar landscape, or any important similarity can trigger the heightened awareness and particular response that saved the animals life when the threat was originally encountered.

For man, death entered the world at the fall. Before then only events permitted by the will were relegated to sensual memory and recalled in relation to similarities to an original event. It was memory recalled spontaneously not involuntary. The emotional memory of man, because of this unnatural intimacy with death has a memory that operates involuntarilly from the sense like animals. This is a deeply rooted disorder of the human soul that has subjected all human kind to a collctive PTSD that been the cause of the cyclic loop of repeated history man is trapped in that only our Lord could save us from. The dragon doesn’t endlessly swallow it’s tail because it’s tail turned into His foot that crushed it’s head.

What is for animals natural and proper, gravely disorders the soul of man. Only the human species is a body of individuals that atr species in of themselves. Persons. IMO emotional memory, as it operates in fallen man, is not proper to the human soul, proper only to the animal soul, is the root cause of the disordered personality of mankind and the root cause of all personality disorders suffered by individual persons. The sting of death.

:twocents:
 
…Our most important claim in this paper is simply that whatever “good trick” (Dennett 1996) was responsible for the advent of human beings’ ability to reinterpret the world in a symbolic-relational fashion, it only evolved in one lineage—ours. Nonhuman animals didn’t (and still don’t) get it.
There are non-human animals that can count, using symbolic numbers. There’s even evidence for the transference of learned social behaviour, aka culture.

news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/02/0206_040206_tvmacaques.html
 
What is for animals natural and proper, gravely disorders the soul of man. Only the human species is a body of individuals that atr species in of themselves. Persons. IMO emotional memory, as it operates in fallen man, is not proper to the human soul, proper only to the animal soul, is the root cause of the disordered personality of mankind and the root cause of all personality disorders suffered by individual persons. The sting of death.

:twocents:
There are plenty of people who are not fixated on death, and the knowledge they will die. Certainly this would include most children and young adults. Anyways, death does effect non-human animals. Some have been observed grieving.

Here’s a video on the original poster’s question from someone who has studied them most of her life. Skip the first 4 minutes to get right to the chimps.
ted.com/talks/jane_goodall_on_what_separates_us_from_the_apes.html

I think it’s at least worth taking into consideration.
 
There are plenty of people who are not fixated on death, and the knowledge they will die. Certainly this would include most children and young adults. Anyways, death does effect non-human animals. Some have been observed grieving.

Here’s a video on the original poster’s question from someone who has studied them most of her life. Skip the first 4 minutes to get right to the chimps.
ted.com/talks/jane_goodall_on_what_separates_us_from_the_apes.html

I think it’s at least worth taking into consideration.
Whether or not one is aware that they exist in an unnatural state changes nothing if it’s true. My reasoning is founded on the belief that the seperation of body and soul is an unnatural state for humans. That human life on earth isn’t meant to end that way. The effects of such a shift would profoundly change the way we percieve, fundamentally change how we develope awareness and meaning of ourselves and our relationship with the external environment. Consider an existence that didn’t include the need to survive.
 
Hi everyone. Just a few links that may be of benefit to people.

Here’s a link to a very original paper by a Chinese researcher, Shi Huang, who has examined various kinds of primate DNA and formulated a bold new maximum genetic diversity hypothesis, which appears to successfully account for the peculiar anomalies and internal contradictions in the molecular clock dating of splits between animal lineages. Huang does a good job of exposing the flaws in molecular clock dating.
Huang’s surprising conclusion is that orangutans, gorillas and chimps are all pongids (apes), while humans belong to a separate group which diverged from the apes 17.3 million years ago. Huang has carefully checked his maximum genetic diversity hypothesis against other mammalian lineages, and it agrees well with the paleontological data.

precedings.nature.com/documents/3794/version/1

I hope these links help. Enjoy!
Thank you so much for all this.👍

Shi Huang’s paper regarding the molecular clock is quite extensive – so extensive that someone familiar with the topic needs to help me read it. This out of context sentence from the Abstract may hold the key to questions regarding the possibility of two sole parents of the human species. “Here, molecular data were analyzed based on the MGD [maximum genetic diversity] to resolve key questions of primate phylogeny.” In my humble opinion, genetic evidence, dating of divergence from the ancestor clade, and the probability of a founder effect needs to be reexamined in the light of the uniqueness of the human species.

The next thing is to have someone help with the reexamination – especially this important paper. Any ideas?

Out of respect for the Catholic Faith, I need to clarify one of the comments in post 46. “While the name implies that Y-chromosomal Adam was the only living male of his time, it is important to understand that he probably co-existed with a large population of human males.” One needs to be careful that the idea of co-existing with a large population of human males means that these males were descendents of two and only two sole parents of the human race, a.k.a. Adam and Eve.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is sacred.
 
All human life is sacred.
Of course, but this is a purely theological position. It has no bearing at all on the biological fact of evolution. Nor does it have any bearing on the biological difference between a chimpanzee and a human.

I’m getting the strong impression that Catholic education is going downhill these days. :mad:
 
Of course, but this is a purely theological position. It has no bearing at all on the biological fact of evolution. Nor does it have any bearing on the biological difference between a chimpanzee and a human.

I’m getting the strong impression that Catholic education is going downhill these days. :mad:
Regarding tag line – All human life is sacred.

Cressida and others,

To find the truth,

Try reversing post 52 which comments “but this [all human life is sacred] is a purely theological position. It has no bearing at all on the biological fact of evolution. Nor does it have any bearing on the biological difference between a chimpanzee and a human.”
 
Of course, but this is a purely theological position. It has no bearing at all on the biological fact of evolution. Nor does it have any bearing on the biological difference between a chimpanzee and a human.
To me, the reverse is the better perspective.

The statement, “All human life is sacred.” is not a purely theological position. It is down-to-earth reality. Sacredness signifies the essential characteristic of the human species which is the spiritual form or the spiritual principle known as the rational, spiritual, immortal soul. This soul, with its faculties of intellect and will, is the source of the difference between a chimpanzee and a human. The sacredness of human life can be said to have a bearing on the biological difference between a chimpanzee and a human because the human is no longer solely biological matter.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is sacred.
 
Originally Posted by JimG forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
*Yes. Chimps don’t post on CAF. *
At least, not to my knowledge.
I don’t know, sometimes I really wonder…
Should there be a test to see who is a chimp? 😉

Real question

Since the evolutionary theory shows that humans and chimps descended from the same common ancestor, – is the difference between us and them simply one of degrees within the same animal kingdom? Why? Why not?
 
Should there be a test to see who is a chimp? 😉

Real question

Since the evolutionary theory shows that humans and chimps descended from the same common ancestor, – is the difference between us and them simply one of degrees within the same animal kingdom? Why? Why not?
A long time ago in a galaxy far far away,I took anthropology in college. Back then the 80’s an hypothesis that was highly regarded as a possible driving force of change that lead to the big headed naked ape was the tendency to retain infantile traits. The infantile traits would progressively from generation to generation be retained in the adults. It was called neonatalism and waqs thought to be the driving force behind the phenomenal growth of the human brain. Since the size of the head in proportion to the infant body is so much greater and the infant brains particular characteristics that enable it to learn a great amount in a short time, neonatalism was a hot topic in my day. Hairy people had less hairy babies who grew up and retained some of the hairlessness of their infancy, had babies with even less hair who grew up with a larger head to grow a latger brain untill you got the chilly chimp. I haven’t read much on it for a while so it may be a theory that lost favor.
 
Wonderful thread, Granny!! I’m glad you did point out that caveat on the “common parents” not actually being in the same generation. I didn’t say that in the other thread but I should have. I was just too irked with (you know who) to think that far ahead.

While all the posts here have been wonderful, I think my favorite is clear back to nearly the beginning about opening a door with packages, one will put them down and the other will open the door with his foot. I had to think for a moment which one I was. I thought, “Well, their feet sort of have opposable thumbs so…” 😃
 
Yes, whereas no chimp laughs at the idea his parents, grandparents, great grandparents etc., were chimps,
some humans do laugh their sides off at the idea their ancestors were chimps.
 
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