Is there any difference between a Communist and a Leftist?

[Brendan_64]

Joseph Stalin outlawed both abortion and homosexuality.

We’re therefore forced to conclude that he was not a communist.

And he could certainly be described as a conservative, he definitely was no liberal.

 

[christofirst]

JMJ

Christo…I am aghast!

Based on your intelligent points and expressive writing ability in our other “discussions” I assumed that you were at least a moderate (although I have problems with them also)

I am shocked to have you admit to liberalism. Please accept my condolences. If there is anything I can do …please let me know.

I will keep you in my prayers.

You’re right. I am a moderate. As others here have said better than I, leftism is only a thing in comparison to a more conservative point of view, or rightism (does such a word even exist? These terms are sounding more and more ridiculous!). And I think our differences (you and me in particular) are in the realm of economic policy (how best to alleviate the problem of poverty), not fundamental Catholic morality (like abortion, and homosexual “marriage”). On the latter, we are in agreement.

The sad fact is that the two major parties in the U.S. have so tangled the economic and the moral issues in such a polarizing way, that it is almost impossible to have a reasonable discussion about one without bringing up the other. Nevertheless, since my economic outlook is clearly left of yours and others here, I take a blanket attack on “all things left” rather personally, and will continue to suggest a more balanced, compassionate, and enlightened approach.

And let the record show, Senator McCarthy, I am not, nor have I ever been, a Communist!

God bless you too!

 

[Cricket2]

And there are still people who think Communism=USSR, Cuba, North Korea or China, when in fact those states were never Communist and are examples of State capitalism. Heck China is even more free market and capitalist then the USA ever was.

Boy you got that right. Thank you.

 

[Cricket2]

Of course leftism exists. Leftists favor an activist federal government, excessive regulations of business. High taxes on business. Extensive government entitlement programs and social engineering. Usually secularism - they are against the Church. They favor abortion. Perhaps one difference is that the leftist makes a pretense of believing in democracy - whereas a communist is more likely to outlaw all political parties but one.

Ishii

Nothing like proving you don’t know what your talking about. A person’s political views have nothing to do with being a Christian or not and being a democrat or leftist is not proof of being secularist. Not all democrats or “leftists” favor abortion and to lump people by one category and into one set of ideas so arbitrarily is a sign of being a bigot. Grow up.

 

[Brendan_64]

Well I consider myself to be a Christian Socialist. I believe there ought to be greater levels of taxation than there currently is, particularly on higher earners, with an increase in levels of public services and social security. I believe that there should be a greater redistribution of wealth from the higher earners to the lower earners, and I do not believe in the concept of ‘trickle down’ wealth. I am also a very strong believer in the Trade Union movement and believe trade unions ought to have more power and clout.

I also think we ought to severely axe defence spending and use this to help boost levels of public services. I would also ban exports of arms from my country to anywhere.

At the same time I strongly oppose abortion and gay ‘marriage’, and fully support the stance of the Church on these and other moral issues (I also believe we the Church ought to be striving to keep with tradition, rather than ‘reform’, when it comes to issues of liturgy and Church discipline).

Does that make me a ‘leftist’? I have always thought of myself as ‘left-wing’, but how can I be if I oppose abortion, gay ‘marriage’ and other such issues?

 

[ishii]

Nothing like proving you don’t know what your talking about. A person’s political views have nothing to do with being a Christian or not and being a democrat or leftist is not proof of being secularist. Not all democrats or “leftists” favor abortion and to lump people by one category and into one set of ideas so arbitrarily is a sign of being a bigot. Grow up.

Take it easy, Cricket.

Leftists generally favor an activist, strong central government that will take care of all - cradle to grave welfare, daycare for the kids, free contraceptives for the teens, free abortions for when they have an “unplanned pregnancy” (that’s a child, actually), free healthcare from the government, etc. etc. and on until retirement (provided by the government, of course). The left is secular and as such wishes to replace traditional institutions such as Church and family with the government. The left hates the Church. Who needs parents? It takes a village. The miniscule amount of Democrats and leftists who don’t favor abortion enable the practice by voting for pro-abortion politicians. (oh, I forgot, “I’m personally opposed…blah blah blah” )

A Catholic’s actions in the voting booth - exercising their rights as a citizen have everything to do Catholic moral principles. Some vote with those principles in mind, some ignore them.

Oh, and learn some manners: your posts are very rude.

Ishii

 

[christofirst]

Well I consider myself to be a Christian Socialist. I believe there ought to be greater levels of taxation than there currently is, particularly on higher earners, with an increase in levels of public services and social security. I believe that there should be a greater redistribution of wealth from the higher earners to the lower earners, and I do not believe in the concept of ‘trickle down’ wealth. I am also a very strong believer in the Trade Union movement and believe trade unions ought to have more power and clout.

I also think we ought to severely axe defence spending and use this to help boost levels of public services. I would also ban exports of arms from my country to anywhere.

At the same time I strongly oppose abortion and gay ‘marriage’, and fully support the stance of the Church on these and other moral issues (I also believe we the Church ought to be striving to keep with tradition, rather than ‘reform’, when it comes to issues of liturgy and Church discipline).
Does that make me a ‘leftist’? I have always thought of myself as ‘left-wing’, but how can I be if I oppose abortion, gay ‘marriage’ and other such issues?

I quite agree with what you said. By today’s common understanding, I consider myself to be morally conservative, but fiscally, a liberal. I am much in favor of organized labor, and I also see the current need for a strong governmental role in providing a much-needed social safety net. I see where government can also play a positive role in providing necessary checks and balances on income inequality and “unfettered” capitalism. And I too tend to stand more with the doves than the hawks where military spending and action are concerned. By most standards, this indeed makes me a liberal. But I stand with the Church on the moral issues (again, abortion and homosexual “marriage”), so this, in effect, makes me a man without a political party.

Still, when anyone draws wild conclusions (left=Communist) or makes indiscriminate attacks (liberal=idiot) on “liberalism”, I consider myself to be one of those under attack.

 

[Brendan_64]

so this, in effect, makes me a man without a political party.

And probably a better place to be considering the state of political parties and many politicians today.

 

[oldcelt]

As soon as I saw Facisn described as a right wing philosophy I knew the list was useless Facisn is left.wing political philosophy. The left desperately want to change the definition to try and distance themselves form the Mid 20th century fascist regimes.

That very much depends on where it is being practiced and what precise form it takes. The fascists in Germany and the US in the WWII period tended to be hard right: anti communist, embraced religion, pro-Christian, etc.

So that is not a single answer issue. As to who is trying to distance themselves from the Nazis, well, a guess that depends on one’s perspective.

 

[ishii]

Leftism doesn’t exist,

Yes it does.

Can you define excessive regulations on business? Regulation on businesses is necessary. What is or what is not excessive is a matter of opinion and a continuum.

Sure - I would define excessive regulations on business as those regulations which serve no good end and force businesses to move or close shop. Here is a good article in the excellent magazine, the Economist, on the topic of “green regulations.” It should be noted that the Economist is not a “right-wing” magazine.

economist.com/node/21547804

Can you define extensive government entitlement programs? Again what is or what is not extensive is a matter of opinion and a continuum.

Yes, I would define excessive government entitlement programs as those which make matters worse and encourage dependency, as well as become a drain on the fiscal health of the country.

Social engineering? What is your definition of that?

The govt passing programs/laws for manipulating societal behavior to achieve a desired outcome. Basically the government trying to run people’s lives. For example, rather than let the market decide who should qualify for a loan, the government, under Jimmy Carter, passed the Community Reinvestment Act which encouraged lending institutions to make sub-prime loans to unqualified borrowers - underrepresented minorities, with the guarantee that in the event that the borrower defaulted on the loan, the govt would use taxpayer money to make whole the lenders. Thus - the govt used social engineering to try to help increase minority home ownership (instead of needing to qualify for a loan based on financial fitness). Of course this led to the sub-prime mortgage bust train wreck in 2008, in spite of conservative (right-wing) efforts to reform CRA under Bush, but to no avail.

Leftists favour abortion? So does that mean that is a person doesn’t support abortion they are not a ‘leftist’?

My experience with “anti-abortion” leftists is that they end up voting for pro-abortion leftists anyway. As such, their anti-abortion views are highly suspect, imo.

Well I consider myself to be a Christian Socialist. I believe there ought to be greater levels of taxation than there currently is, particularly on higher earners, with an increase in levels of public services and social security. I believe that there should be a greater redistribution of wealth from the higher earners to the lower earners, and I do not believe in the concept of ‘trickle down’ wealth. I am also a very strong believer in the Trade Union movement and believe trade unions ought to have more power and clout.

I also think we ought to severely axe defence spending and use this to help boost levels of public services. I would also ban exports of arms from my country to anywhere.

At the same time I strongly oppose abortion and gay ‘marriage’, and fully support the stance of the Church on these and other moral issues (I also believe we the Church ought to be striving to keep with tradition, rather than ‘reform’, when it comes to issues of liturgy and Church discipline).

Does that make me a ‘leftist’? I have always thought of myself as ‘left-wing’, but how can I be if I oppose abortion, gay ‘marriage’ and other such issues?

Yes, I would consider those views pretty far to the left. But I realize the spectrum is relative. To a Marxist-Leninist, your views might be considered moderate. To a conservative in America, your views would be considered leftist.

I don’t know the status of the abortion issue in the UK. But in America, we find lefty Catholics who say the same thing as you: they are for all the socialism, but by golly, they are against abortion and gay marriage! Problem is, when it comes time to vote, they faithfully vote for the leftist candidates (who are always pro-abortion/pro-gay marriage). In other words, their leftism supersedes their supposed commitment to Catholic moral principles.

Ishii

 

[Brendan_64]

Take it easy, Cricket.

Leftists generally favor an activist, strong central government that will take care of all - cradle to grave welfare, daycare for the kids, free contraceptives for the teens, free abortions for when they have an “unplanned pregnancy” (that’s a child, actually), free healthcare from the government, etc. etc. and on until retirement (provided by the government, of course). The left is secular and as such wishes to replace traditional institutions such as Church and family with the government. The left hates the Church.

The left hates the Church? So is a Christian Socialist like myself who opposes abortion, contraception etc. a ‘leftist’?

You really are mixing up economic issues with moral issues and lumping them all in together. That does seem quite a naive approach, and one that doesn’t make a lot of sense.

Economic issues and how wealth is distributed has absolutely nothing to do with moral issues such as abortion, contraception for teens, etc. The two things are completely separate.

You also seem to have completely ignored all the posts on this thread pointing this out.

Who needs parents? It takes a village. The miniscule amount of Democrats and leftists who don’t favor abortion enable the practice by voting for pro-abortion politicians. (oh, I forgot, “I’m personally opposed…blah blah blah” )

Now you are being offensive towards those of us who are not economic conservatives, but who oppose abortion. I take exception to your last sentence.

In the UK every political party is in favour of abortion. Our Conservative Prime Minister has introduced gay ‘marriage’, and has supported abortion etc. Don’t kid yourself that being fiscally conservative implies support for the Church’s position on moral issues. It does not.

A Catholic’s actions in the voting booth - exercising their rights as a citizen have everything to do Catholic moral principles. Some vote with those principles in mind, some ignore them.

So it would follow then that Catholics in the UK ought not to vote at all, since all parties (Conservative Party included) support abortion, gay ‘marriage’, and contraceptives being available for under-age girls through their GP without the need for parental consent.

Is the Conservative Party in the UK also ‘leftist’ because of its stance on abortion and gay ‘marriage’?

And I presume you also insist that Catholics must make sure they vote for politicians whose policies will give a preferential option for the poor?

Oh, and learn some manners: your posts are very rude.

And your posts are not? I suggest you go back and re-read some of the lines from your last post.

 

[JB_Dugan]

You’re right. I am a moderate.

“A moderate is a person with no principles. Someone without a firm stand on issues. A ‘middle-of-the-roader’”. Someone flaying with traffic from both directions"-- JB Dugan 2005.

 

[christofirst]

“A moderate is a person with no principles. Someone without a firm stand on issues. A ‘middle-of-the-roader’”. Someone flaying with traffic from both directions"-- JB Dugan 2005.

Moderate, extremist, we all gotta be something!

Concerning those issues where the Church is uncompromising, I am just as inflexible as you are. Where the Church allows for options, we apparently go our separate ways.

Subsidiarity and Solidarity must coexist in the service of all people, and there is more than one way to ensure that this happens. My way just happens to be better than yours.

 

[Avdima]

Meh. They don’t reach the untenable version of communism that Marx sets out, but I don’t see much of a point in not referring to these countries as communist. Lenin added a great deal to the idea of communism, and communist regimes were styled more off of his ideas.

And you are very much off in stating that China is more capitalist than the US. In wha way can an economy where the largest firms are state owned be considered more capitalist?

The fact that they(Communist Party of China) call themselves a communist party is insulting. The fact that people still think China is communist because they have a brutal government is more insulting. Perhaps most insulting is the fact that most people think communist states are a thing. If they actually look at history no state has ever declared itself to be communist, they admitted they were in a “transition state”, even though they appear to be frozen there. My teacher ounce uttered the phrase “communist regime” and all I could do was puzzle at contradiction.

In short the “Communist” Party of China is to corrupt to allow any real communists to exist within their walls. They are so capitalistic that they will even lend their military to Wal-Mart to escort out a person they, Wal-Mart, see as a threat.

 

[Brendan_64]

My experience with “anti-abortion” leftists is that they end up voting for pro-abortion leftists anyway. As such, their anti-abortion views are highly suspect, imo.

And what of anti-abortion conservatives in the UK. Every political party in the UK favours abortion. Does that make the views of anti-abortion conservatives also suspect?

Yes, I would consider those views pretty far to the left. But I realize the spectrum is relative. To a Marxist-Leninist, your views might be considered moderate. To a conservative in America, your views would be considered leftist.

On economic grounds I might accept that. But it really is simply a comparison with your own views.

I don’t know the status of the abortion issue in the UK. But in America, we find lefty Catholics who say the same thing as you: they are for all the socialism, but by golly, they are against abortion and gay marriage! Problem is, when it comes time to vote, they faithfully vote for the leftist candidates (who are always pro-abortion/pro-gay marriage). In other words, their leftism supersedes their supposed commitment to Catholic moral principles.

Ishii

In the UK all political parties are in favour of abortion. And it is our Conservative led government, under Prime Minister David Cameron which has legalised gay ‘marriage’. So we have a situation in the UK where conservative Christian voters are faithfully voting for politicians who support abortion and gay ‘marriage’.

And as for my voting habits, you know nothing of them.

You really fail to distinguish between issues of morality (such as abortion, gay ‘marriage’ etc.) and issues of economics. The two issues are very different. You really do seem to be defining your views on such issues purely on the views held by politicians in the USA., which is a very narrow-minded and parochial view.

You also seem to be using the fact that ‘right-wing’ politicians in the USA tend to appear to be less in favour of abortion, gay ‘marriage’ etc. as a means of justifying their economic views and implying that therefore these to must be in line with Church teaching.

I don’t suppose that, when you go to the ballot box, you ever consider , “Do the policies this candidate supports give a preferential option for the poor?”

Pope Francis is right. Yes abortion, gay ‘marriage’ etc. are very important issues, but they are not the only issues for Catholics to consider. There is also the issues of social justice, and the need to consider whether the poor are being treated preferentially, not equally, but **preferentially **, because the preferential option for the poor is one of the core pillars of Catholic Social teaching. How does this square with the moral principles of Catholics who vote for conservatives who support policies that see the economic differences in our society widen rather than narrow?

The notion of, “right-wing good, left-wing bad” that seems to dominate American religious thinking, looks naive, infantile and ludicrous, when viewed by someone outside of the USA. In the USA it seems to be that people lump everything together and create a ‘left-wing’ standard package of beliefs, and a ‘right-wing’ standard package of beliefs, and fail to even be able to separate and distinguish between a range of different beliefs a person may hold. It’s as if its all viewed as a ready-made package and you must choose one package or the other. To someone outside the USA that just seems bonkers and is something 10-year-olds over here would be able to pull apart in their RE and PSHCE lessons.

 

[Brendan_64]

We really ought to get beyond the “Right-wing”, “Left-wing” nonsense, and look at Catholic teaching, because the teaching of the Church is not defined by ‘left’ or ‘right’ and to define it as such mocks our Lord. There are teachings that people who cling to, and identify themselves, with ‘left’ or ‘right’ will find difficult on all sides of the political spectrum. I think nobody is in doubt about where we should stand on issues such as abortion, everyone is clear on that, but on certain core issues of Catholic social teaching (which does include the distribution of wealth within our nations and within our world) there seems to be a lot of misconceptions.

Pope Francis’s latest encyclical, Evangelii Gaudium, where he criticises blind faith in capitalism, reiterates the Church’s position regarding the unfairness of ‘trickle-down’ economics, and talks about the inequality in wealth distribution, is a well needed step forward to clarify Church teaching on such issues. The Pope is setting out our position clearly and it will be the duty of all Catholics to follow, regardless of our own secular political prejudices.” The fact that Rush Limbaugh called the Pope’s encyclical “Marxist” is disgraceful. As Pope Francis himself says, “there is nothing in the Exhortation that cannot be found in the social Doctrine of the Church". The Pope is simply drawing attention to what is established Church teaching.

The Church is neither ‘right’, ‘left’ or anything in between. The Church follows the teachings of Christ. If the Church’s teachings upsets our cosy political positions and identities, then that is a very good thing.

 

[Tony_the_mad]

The notion of, “right-wing good, left-wing bad” that seems to dominate American religious thinking, looks naive, infantile and ludicrous, when viewed by someone outside of the USA. In the USA it seems to be that people lump everything together and create a ‘left-wing’ standard package of beliefs, and a ‘right-wing’ standard package of beliefs, and fail to even be able to separate and distinguish between a range of different beliefs a person may hold. It’s as if its all viewed as a ready-made package and you must choose one package or the other. To someone outside the USA that just seems bonkers and is something 10-year-olds over here would be able to pull apart in their RE and PSHCE lessons.

I strongly support the majority of your posts here. The ideal of a right and left as being consistent moral philosophies is simply untenable. (A better description is that they are loose alliances of causes based not on consistency of philosophy but accidents of history.) You have made in my mind very strong arguments when you point out that the term has different meanings in different countries. It also has different meanings in different times. You can make a strong argument that Obama is to the right of Reagan in many issues, including taxation, wars, defense spending, immigration, etc.

But, I take some issue here. While I think it is great to have your perspective since you are from a different country, etc. I think this paragraph is a little one sided. Every culture has flaws that are much easier to see from the outside than from the inside.

What we need are a better understanding of how we got into this mess and how we are to get out of it. Insults don’t help us.

 

[Tony_the_mad]

The Church is neither ‘right’, ‘left’ or anything in between. The Church follows the teachings of Christ. If the Church’s teachings upsets our cosy political positions and identities, then that is a very good thing.

Exactly! GK Chesterton in Orthodoxy describes how he became a Catholic by reading all the propaganda against her. For he realized that some said it was too fat and others said it was too thin, etc. Therefore, to Chesterton, the Church was either this very weirdly shaped and very evil thing or else the problems were not the fault of the Church but that of those who viewed the Church through skewed glasses and from all sides.

I almost feel embarrassed because this Pope has not drastically challenged my views yet. It is good to be challenged. Personally, as a liberal, I would love to see the Pope take a few more shots against the people on ‘my side’ as well. The perfect Church is almost inevitably disliked by all sides not just one, because it challenges all sides to perfection.

 

[Brendan_64]

What we need are a better understanding of how we got into this mess and how we are to get out of it. Insults don’t help us.

I did not mean to insult anyone. However the lumping together of views on morality, economics etc. into ‘right’ and ‘left’ packages is bonkers, and just doesn’t make any sense. It is almost as if such views then become part of a ‘tribal’ identity whereby one accepts the views packaged as ‘right’ or ‘left’, depending on one’s chosen tribe.

I apologise if I have insulted anyone from the USA, but looking in from the outside it does seem like these views tend to be lumped together by many (at least in the online community) as packages to which people identify themselves. It really doesn’t make a lot of sense.

The only ‘package’ of views we should accept is the teachings of the Church. And these teachings do make uncomfortable reading for both sides of the political divide. Pope Francis was right when he said that we ought not to define ourselves (and our Catholicism) on single issues such as abortion, there are many more issues. Millions are dying as a result of poverty in our world of plenty, while our world economic system is set up to transfer the world’s wealth up the chain to those who have the most and need the least. Those too are innocent lives lost.

 

[Kaninchen]

I apologise if I have insulted anyone from the USA, but looking in from the outside it does seem like these views tend to be lumped together by many (at least in the online community) as packages to which people identify themselves. It really doesn’t make a lot of sense.

I think you just have to accept that American Conservatives have an entirely different worldview and language and it doesn’t matter in the slightest how others see the world or talk about the world.

I’m a lifelong Tory and I get as mystified by it as anybody else.