Is there any difference between a Communist and a Leftist?

[Mickey_Finn]

In any case, I frankly find it absurd for anyone to compare the allegedly narrow instances of fraud within certain local Catholic charitable organizations with the overwhelming fraud of government institutions which literally cost taxpayers millions if not billions of taxpayer dollars every year. Here we see an absurd generalization. Right after you criticize another for the same thing. Hmm :dts:

And that’s not even touching upon the ridiculous government programs which waste even more millions and billions of dollars(as evidenced by the recent “stimulus” bills coming from both the GOP and the Dems). TEA Party rant.

Whether it be socialism, communism, or even “state-capitalism”, government acting as a charitable organization is a joke, because government, and those in government, first obligation is to themselves and their job security, not to the welfare of those in need. Another absurd, and un truthful generalization. I thought you didn’t like those? Government will always take care of itself before the needy, and it will always only give the smallest and most meager of benefits possible, of which the recipients are suppose to be so grateful for, while the government workers take in many times more in their salaries without batting an eye. This is called prudence, and who cares if the recipients are grateful?

They essentially buy their job security through these meager entitlement programs and force those in need to be beholden to them. Which creates a permanent class of poor people that will constantly vote for those whom they are beholden to, thus they enslave an entire voting block to their whims. Ending with another TEA Party rant.

Any organization which chooses to act in the interest of the needy is not to be despised. Whether they are Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, or Governmental. They are all doing as Jesus wishes them to do. WE should respect them all, and be grateful for the help they give our brothers.

ATB

 

[Cricket2]

Actually, the rise in sexual misconduct in society is a symptom of the hedonist amoral culture that resulted from the liberal so-called “sexual revolution”.

I don’t think (just my opinion here) that there is actually that great of a rise in this problem. I think there is increased awareness of it and willingness to report it. Here is a personal reason I feel this way:

My mother had 4 siblings. My mother was raped by two neighbor boys when she was 5. They were going to murder her but she escaped. When she got home she was told to shut her mouth and take a bath. (A common reaction for her time.)

Her deaf brother was taken miles from home and from what they can tell had been kidnapped by a man that was raping and killing boys his age. A week prior to his abduction two boys had been found a half a mile from my mother’s uncle’s flower shop. The boys had stopped by to visit and the police knew that within 1 hour after that visit they were dead. My uncle got away and ran for miles home.

My mother’s oldest sister was taken off the street and was missing for hours. A Royal Mounted Police Officer happened to see a strange car in a railroad station and went to investigate. There was my mothers sister, about to be raped. The guy had ties, duct tape and a knife. They figure another five minutes and my mothers sister would have been murdered and never found or heard of again.

Oh yes, years after my mother was raped, when she was around 8 she went to an afternoon movie. On the way out of the theater someone grabbed her hand and pulled her across the highway to the river across the way. At that time they were finding little girls raped and murdered along that river. Suddenly and without reason the man that grabbed her let go of her and said: “Run before I change my mind.” She did. The next day they found this man with a self inflicted gun shot wound to his head and a note. In the note he confessed to the other rapes and murders and said: “I deserve to be dead.”

You see, that is from one family. I know so many like this there is no way there has been an increase in the problem just a greater honesty about it, and willingness to report it. Sexual depravity has been with us since the beginning of time. Remember, incest occurs in 33% of all families. For those who have been placed in care facilities because of developmental disabilities 98% have been sexually assaulted by someone they know or a care giver. Nursing homes are no better. All it takes is one predator and everyone there is in danger.

 

[Cricket2]

That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

Pretty powerful words, from The Man Himself…"… and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I’ll stick with my Church through hell and high water.

PS: Happy Boxing Day

Oh I will always defend the Church in terms of my Faith. But I will never defend wrong doing, even if it comes from Her. It is foolish to think that just because it is the Church that nothing wrong or criminal ever happens within her walls. That darkness will not prevail as long as there are those who are willing to challenge it and purge it when it occurs.

 

[Cricket2]

Actually, the rise in sexual misconduct in society is a symptom of the hedonist amoral culture that resulted from the liberal so-called “sexual revolution”.

Oh yes, everything is the fault of the liberals. What rubbish. Perverts abound everywhere and it has nothing to do with being a liberal or a conservative, communist or socialist. They are predators, pure and simple.

 

[PeopleB4Things]

Communism, capitalism and socialism are economic systems. The US is a hybrid, incorporating both capitalism and socialism components into its system. The term leftist however usually refers to someone’s political leanings. You can be a leftist capitalist who also supports socialistic programs. Just look at Bill Gates.

Example:
Capitalists in America - business owners
Socialists in America - Medicare and Social Security recipients.

Can you be both a business owner and use Medicare? Yes. Because we are a hybrid system. And you can be a leftist by supporting laws that protect Medicare and Social Security recipients from the benefit cuts called for by those who want to decrease entitlement spending.

 

[PeopleB4Things]

Actually, the rise in sexual misconduct in society is a symptom of the hedonist amoral culture that resulted from the liberal so-called “sexual revolution”.

Let’s apply your assessment to the Catholic Church sex scandal that is still playing out today with more credible victims coming forward in 2013. Our predator priests, graced by the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Holy Orders after years of strong Catholic socialization, immersion and training, fell prey to the Church’s liberal immoral hedonistic culture and teachings. It had nothing to do with their personal proclivities and the ability to make choices in total opposition to their cultural mores. Hmmm… let me think on that one.

 

[PeopleB4Things]

I don’t think (just my opinion here) that there is actually that great of a rise in this problem. I think there is increased awareness of it and willingness to report it. Here is a personal reason I feel this way:

My mother had 4 siblings. My mother was raped by two neighbor boys when she was 5. They were going to murder her but she escaped. When she got home she was told to shut her mouth and take a bath. (A common reaction for her time.)

Her deaf brother was taken miles from home and from what they can tell had been kidnapped by a man that was raping and killing boys his age. A week prior to his abduction two boys had been found a half a mile from my mother’s uncle’s flower shop. The boys had stopped by to visit and the police knew that within 1 hour after that visit they were dead. My uncle got away and ran for miles home.

My mother’s oldest sister was taken off the street and was missing for hours. A Royal Mounted Police Officer happened to see a strange car in a railroad station and went to investigate. There was my mothers sister, about to be raped. The guy had ties, duct tape and a knife. They figure another five minutes and my mothers sister would have been murdered and never found or heard of again.

Oh yes, years after my mother was raped, when she was around 8 she went to an afternoon movie. On the way out of the theater someone grabbed her hand and pulled her across the highway to the river across the way. At that time they were finding little girls raped and murdered along that river. Suddenly and without reason the man that grabbed her let go of her and said: “Run before I change my mind.” She did. The next day they found this man with a self inflicted gun shot wound to his head and a note. In the note he confessed to the other rapes and murders and said: “I deserve to be dead.”

You see, that is from one family. I know so many like this there is no way there has been an increase in the problem just a greater honesty about it, and willingness to report it. Sexual depravity has been with us since the beginning of time. Remember, incest occurs in 33% of all families. For those who have been placed in care facilities because of developmental disabilities 98% have been sexually assaulted by someone they know or a care giver. Nursing homes are no better. All it takes is one predator and everyone there is in danger.

I agree with you 100%. While we had TV in the 60s, the internet was not around. We can now learn of incidents like the ones you reported within hours, even minutes of their discoveries. Back in the 60s, we were less informed about things that happened outside our communities. Our ignorance made us think things were better in the good old days.

 

[Tom_Baum]

That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

Pretty powerful words, from The Man Himself…"… and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I’ll stick with my Church through hell and high water.

PS: Happy Boxing Day

Jesus never said anything about His Church being perfect in this statement, He was telling us what the “mission” of His Church is and that mission is that “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”, as you put it, but it is also written as: “the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it”.

The “gates of the netherworld” include not just hell but also spiritual death.

At least one of the reasons that Jesus made this statement was because Jesus was going to “win” the “keys” to the “netherworld” by His work on the cross.

 

[Amandil]

Oh dear. The Church is a non-profit entity. Yes, yes she is the Bride of Christ, but she is run by human beings and sorry folks, this means the Church is just as likely to deal with fraud and theft as any other body, entity, corporation out there. If we can’t face that we can’t prevent it. The Catholic Church holds more property, land and physical wealth than any other organization out there.

You’re still making the same fallacious argument. It simply does not follow that for the Church to be humble that it must be impoverished.

Because all of those who work in offices, churches, rectories, schools are human there will be theft, lying, and scandal. The keep your head in the sand and pretend it won’t or can’t or isn’t happening is part of the same attitude and ignorance that allowed sexual misconduct and pedophilia to go unchecked until recently. Wake up.

Nor does it follow that the Church’s authority is negated by the bad acts of bad “Christians”. Once you “wake up” to this fact and get your head out of the sand of your prejudice against God and what He has established, you may actually get our of your cynicism.

 

[Amandil]

Any organization which chooses to act in the interest of the needy is not to be despised. Whether they are Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, or Governmental. They are all doing as Jesus wishes them to do. WE should respect them all, and be grateful for the help they give our brothers.
ATB

You cannot be that naïve.

Please, as if this government does anything without its own self-interest being primary.

Or do you forget basic Catholic Doctrine on the morality of human acts?

Here we see an absurd generalization. Right after you criticize another for the same thing. Hmm

And I suppose you have the proof that the Government doesn’t waste billions of dollars and is completely altruistic in is social engineering efforts? Spare me.

TEA Party rant.

Hasty generalization.

Another absurd, and un truthful generalization. I thought you didn’t like those?

What is asserted without reason…

This is called prudence, and who cares if the recipients are grateful?
Ending with another TEA Party rant.

Proof that your objections are purely ideological and not factual.

FYI: I’m NOT a “Tea Party” person. That’s you making a purely ideological assumption.

 

[livingwordunity]

You’re still making the same fallacious argument. It simply does not follow that for the Church to be humble that it must be impoverished. Nor does it follow that the Church’s authority is negated by the bad acts of bad “Christians”.

Excellent point.

 

[JB_Dugan]

Jesus never said anything about His Church being perfect in this statement, He was telling us what the “mission” of His Church is and that mission is that “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”, as you put it, but it is also written as: “the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it”.

The “gates of the netherworld” include not just hell but also spiritual death.

At least one of the reasons that Jesus made this statement was because Jesus was going to “win” the “keys” to the “netherworld” by His work on the cross.

Tom, I disagree…

1. Why would Jesus establish anything that was NOT PERFECT? If He is God…that would be an impossibility.
2. I just went over Matthew 16:13-20 and I don’t find any mention of the “mission of His Church”. I originally quoted from King James (I like the poetic style) and it uses the word “hell”. the New American Bible (Catholic) uses the word “Hades”. What bible do you find “netherworld”?
3. Spiritual death is hell. The “gates of the netherworld” sounds like the entrance to a weird amusement park ride.
4. Speaking of amusement parks…is this where Jesus was going to “win” his keys???

Catholics believe that in Matthew 16:13-20, Jesus established the Catholic Church and at the same time established the primacy of St Peter as the first pope with the power to “bind” things on earth that would be bound in Heaven.

If you see any other interpretation of this passage I would be very interested.

 

[O_S_C]

You didn’t answer the question with any specifics. What do Communists believe that Leftists don’t?

“Left” and “Right” in politics have no clear definition, but it refers to equality between people in society. To simplify “Left” means that you want people to be more equal. “right” means that you want people to be less equal.

Communism strives towards the full equal dignity of all mankind. Communists are against all forms of domination and subjection. Communists are against classes (the division of humanity into different functions of production and exploitation) and against states. It is a common misconception that communists advocate state ownership, there is nothing more essentially socialist about a state-run coalmine than there is about a state-run army. Instead of capitalist control or state control communists advocate that production should be controled by those do the producing, and that production should not serve goals of growth and profit but the satisfaction of needs and solving of problems - human flourishing.

That is the communist idea, “from each according to ability, to each according to need” - a philosophy of love. All large scale historical attempts towards it has failed. Authoritarian states such as the USSR had very little in common with communist ideals.

 

[Cricket2]

“Left” and “Right” in politics have no clear definition, but it refers to equality between people in society. To simplify “Left” means that you want people to be more equal. “right” means that you want people to be less equal.

Communism strives towards the full equal dignity of all mankind. Communists are against all forms of domination and subjection. Communists are against classes (the division of humanity into different functions of production and exploitation) and against states. It is a common misconception that communists advocate state ownership, there is nothing more essentially socialist about a state-run coalmine than there is about a state-run army. Instead of capitalist control or state control communists advocate that production should be controled by those do the producing, and that production should not serve goals of growth and profit but the satisfaction of needs and solving of problems - human flourishing.

That is the communist idea, “from each according to ability, to each according to need” - a philosophy of love. All large scale historical attempts towards it has failed. Authoritarian states such as the USSR had very little in common with communist ideals.

Thank you so much for explaining this correctly. At last, someone who understands what Communism is really about.

 

[livingwordunity]

Communism strives towards the full equal dignity of all mankind.

Try telling that to the families of the victims of Jonestown.

This is how we got the expression, “Don’t drink the Kool-Aid”.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
One-third of the victims were children. Many were killed by Jones’ aides, who squirted cyanide down their throats.

Jonestown Transcript prepared by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Department of Justice, Washington, D.C.

Jim Jones: “Lay down your life with dignity. Don’t lay down with tears and agony. It’s nothing to death, just like Max said. It’s just stepping over into another plane. Don’t, don’t be this way. Stop this hysterics… This is not the way for people who are socialistic Communists to die … no way for us to die. We must die with some dignity …”

Inside the Jonestown massacre

(CNN) – Thirty years ago, 909 Americans were led to their death by the Rev. Jim Jones in a mass murder-suicide pact in a South American jungle, shortly after Jones’ gunmen killed a visiting U.S. congressman and four others at a nearby airstrip.

What happened? More than 900 Americans died in a South American jungle upon the orders of Rev. Jim Jones, who had tried to create a socialist paradise that survivors called a slave camp.

Pope John XXIII - On Socialism

Pope Pius XI further emphasized the fundamental opposition between Communism and Christianity, and made it clear that no Catholic could subscribe even to moderate Socialism. The reason is that Socialism is founded on a doctrine of human society which is bounded by time and takes no account of any objective other than that of material well-being. Since, therefore, it proposes a form of social organization which aims solely at production, it places too severe a restraint on human liberty, at the same time flouting the true notion of social authority. - Mater et Magistra

 

[O_S_C]

Try telling that to the families of the victims of Jonestown.

You cannot be serious with this demagogy.

Pope Pius XI further emphasized the fundamental opposition between Communism and Christianity, and made it clear that no Catholic could subscribe even to moderate Socialism. The reason is that Socialism is founded on a doctrine of human society which is bounded by time and takes no account of any objective other than that of material well-being. Since, therefore, it proposes a form of social organization which aims solely at production, it places too severe a restraint on human liberty, at the same time flouting the true notion of social authority. - Mater et Magistra[/INDENT]

It is true that the christian revolution goes deeper than the socialist revolution, down to the ultimate alienation that is sin and to the ultimate transformation that is death and resurrection. However this does not mean that the socialist revolution is at odds with the christian revolution. Quite the opposite: the removal of classes, worldly authorities, subjection and exploitation is a necessary step in the struggle against human disunity - that is sin. it is a necessary step in coming together in God.

I don’t understand how you can possibly see it in any other way.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Tom, I disagree…

1. Why would Jesus establish anything that was NOT PERFECT? If He is God…that would be an impossibility.
2. I just went over Matthew 16:13-20 and I don’t find any mention of the “mission of His Church”. I originally quoted from King James (I like the poetic style) and it uses the word “hell”. the New American Bible (Catholic) uses the word “Hades”. What bible do you find “netherworld”?
3. Spiritual death is hell. The “gates of the netherworld” sounds like the entrance to a weird amusement park ride.
4. Speaking of amusement parks…is this where Jesus was going to “win” his keys???

Catholics believe that in Matthew 16:13-20, Jesus established the Catholic Church and at the same time established the primacy of St Peter as the first pope with the power to “bind” things on earth that would be bound in Heaven.

If you see any other interpretation of this passage I would be very interested.

1. Is the world “perfect”? Seems to me that God said it was good, very good, but He didn’t say it was perfect, did He?
2. It doesn’t mention “mission of His Church” just as the bible doesn’t mention the Trinity but it is written right there for you to see and as far as “And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,* and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”, all you have to do it look up the usccb. org website and look at the "books of the bible, it is right there.
3. If “Spiritual death is hell”, why does it say that “the captives shall be released and the dead shall rise”?, seems as if there is a captivity (hell) to be released from and a death (spiritual death) to rise from.
4. As far as “The “gates of the netherworld” sounds like the entrance to a weird amusement park ride.”, maybe you can take this up with the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops on their website, I, personally, do not take either hell or spiritual death lightly, they are very different but both beyond horrible and I am thankful that Jesus “won” the “keys” to both and will use these “keys” in due time, God’s Time.
5. Jesus “won” the “keys” when He took the sins of humanity upon Himself on the cross and went to hell and death for you and me and everyone else, aren’t you grateful or do you not believe that He took our sins upon Himself on the cross?

Peter was called to be a rock (living stone) in Jesus’s Church and we are all called to be living stones, are we not?

 

[Darryl1958]

Left and right are relative terms. Who is left and who is right varies across time and across societies.

In all societies, Communism has defined the extreme left. It is based in total economic equality. It involves complete submission of the will of the individual to the will of the State, for any stress on individual differences recreates the underpinnings of social class.

It is about the complete erasure of social classes, not only regardless of birth, but regardless of merit. Almost invariably, this erasure of social classes has involved the mass erasure of individuals who are deemed as being too corrupted by bourgeois values to go about such a diminution of their individual status willingly.

Communism is by self-definition godless because it sees religion as the tool of the elites to control the proletariat classes and keep them submissive.

It is completely materialistic, and defines equality in material terms only, which follows from its basic message of godlessness.

Communism defines the absolute left. To the extent that a leftist diverges from that point of view on one or several of those key points, they are less to the left than a Communist.

 

[Cricket2]

Livingwordunity:

Jones Town has nothing to do with Communism. That fool was a religious nut and a psychopath suffering from obvious delusions of grandeur. There is no comparison.

 

[Darryl1958]

Interestingly, Jones had strong ties to the Democratic party.
He also was a self-professed Communist who became very interested in how religion could become a vehicle for his ‘community organizing’ activities.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones

In 1951, Jones began attending Communist Party meetings and rallies in Indianapolis.[16]

Unlike most supposed cult leaders, Jones was able to gain public support and contact with prominent politicians in the local and national level. For example, Jones and Moscone met privately with vice presidential candidate Walter Mondale on his campaign plane days before the 1976 election, leading Mondale to publicly praise the Temple.[43][44] First Lady Rosalynn Carter also personally met with Jones on multiple occasions; corresponded with him about Cuba; and spoke with him at the grand opening of the San Francisco Democratic Party Headquarters, where Jones garnered louder applause than Mrs. Carter.[43][45][46]