Is there any difference between a Communist and a Leftist?

[Cricket2]

Interestingly, Jones had strong ties to the Democratic party.
He also was a self-professed Communist who became very interested in how religion could become a vehicle for his ‘community organizing’ activities.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones

I did not know that he had strong ties to the Democratic Party. I would still not compare Democrats and Communists as being the same due to one man. I truly think he was a certifiable nut and psychopath. What always amazes me is people fall for them.

I had an incident at one of my jobs in which a true psychopath was putting someone at risk. My supervisor at the time actually thought the guy was “nice” and "wouldn’t hurt anyone. I actually asked her if she was nuts. I told her he was dangerous and why.

She couldn’t figure out how I could tell, despite some really odd behaviors and comments he made. It took about two weeks for her to discover I was correct and she seemed really amazed that I could discern this. It really does floor me.

 

[Darryl1958]

I did not know that he had strong ties to the Democratic Party. I would still not compare Democrats and Communists as being the same due to one man. I truly think he was a certifiable nut and psychopath. What always amazes me is people fall for them.

I had an incident at one of my jobs in which a true psychopath was putting someone at risk. My supervisor at the time actually thought the guy was “nice” and "wouldn’t hurt anyone. I actually asked her if she was nuts. I told her he was dangerous and why.

She couldn’t figure out how I could tell, despite some really odd behaviors and comments he made. It took about two weeks for her to discover I was correct and she seemed really amazed that I could discern this. It really does floor me.

If it was Republicans who had been found to have been offering support to someone so criminally and morally insane as Jim Jones, it is very likely that this would be common knowledge.

Jones eventually did lose his support of Democratic influential as the extents of his total moral depravity became more and more exposed.
Until then, it is interesting to note how close the ties were between a communist community organizer that used the Christian religion as the vehicle for his ideology, and the highest reaches of the Democratic party at the time. The story should have a familiar ring to it given recent political events.

This is not to say that Democrats are all extreme leftist communists such as Jim Jones, but it does show that there is commonalities and cooperations between the various shades of leftist spectrum.

 

[O_S_C]

In all societies, Communism has defined the extreme left. It is based in total economic equality. It involves complete submission of the will of the individual to the will of the State, for any stress on individual differences recreates the underpinnings of social class.

Not correct. Communism rather inolves the submission of society under people; people being in control over the conditions of their lives. There’s no place for such thing as a state in a communist society. All communists thinkers agree in this.

It is about the complete erasure of social classes, not only regardless of birth, but regardless of merit. Almost invariably, this erasure of social classes has involved the mass erasure of individuals who are deemed as being too corrupted by bourgeois values to go about such a diminution of their individual status willingly.

Communism ‘only’ sets out to abolish classes as in antagonistic social functions of labour and exploitation, Christianity on the other hand goes further, towards a full transformation of humanity and the abolishing of sin as such.

Of course some people will resist violently even the communist transformation. Over the course of the 20th century hundreds of millions of communists were murdered, tortured and imprisoned. True christians face the same thing - torture and death, like Jesus showed.

Communism is by self-definition godless because it sees religion as the tool of the elites to control the proletariat classes and keep them submissive.

Lenin has said things of that nature, based on the reactionary role of the Orthodox Church in tsarist Russia. Marx on the other hand did not view religion in such way, even though he was an atheist.

Any way, communism is not the same thing as the opinions of either Marx or Lenin - or anyone else for that sake. There’s nothing necessarily atheist about communism. In many ways communism is far more ‘spiritual’ than the dreary materialism, egoism and narrow rationalism of capitalism.

It is completely materialistic, and defines equality in material terms only, which follows from its basic message of godlessness.

You confuse communism with marxism. Marxism is one approach to communism but far from the only one. There’s been many examples of christian communism, from the early churches to the monastraries and the utopian societies that were established in America during the 17th and 18th centuries.

And the materialism of marxism is not a vulgar, reductionist materialism that denies the living, subjective and ‘spiritual’ aspects of the world. And it’s definitly not materialist in the sense that it holds that what’s important in life is posessing a lot of things. The materialism of marxism means that it holds that if we are to understand societies, their culture, ideas and development we must first look at how it’s production and reproduction is organized.

 

[Darryl1958]

Not correct. Communism rather inolves the submission of society under people; people being in control over the conditions of their lives. There’s no place for such thing as a state in a communist society. All communists thinkers agree in this.

I am not interested in Communism as it exists in the minds of dreamers.
I am talking about how communism exists in reality.
There is no practical way for your line of events to happen and that is why it never has happened, and never will happen.

…

Thanks, but no thanks. I am just not buying what you have to sell.

 

[Cricket2]

If it was Republicans who had been found to have been offering support to someone so criminally and morally insane as Jim Jones, it is very likely that this would be common knowledge.

Jones eventually did lose his support of Democratic influential as the extents of his total moral depravity became more and more exposed.
Until then, it is interesting to note how close the ties were between a communist community organizer that used the Christian religion as the vehicle for his ideology, and the highest reaches of the Democratic party at the time. The story should have a familiar ring to it given recent political events.

This is not to say that Democrats are all extreme leftist communists such as Jim Jones, but it does show that there is commonalities and cooperations between the various shades of leftist spectrum.

I would not agree that this is proof of that much “commonalities and cooperations” between “various shades of leftist spectrum.” Frankly, I think most political parties have rogue members with private agendas. I am at the point were I think we need a whole new line of leaders that are more obviously interested in the welfare of the people over big business.

 

[livingwordunity]

Livingwordunity:

Jones Town has nothing to do with Communism. That fool was a religious nut and a psychopath suffering from obvious delusions of grandeur. There is no comparison.

You are using the ‘No True Scotsman’ fallacy.

‘No True Scotsman’ Fallacy

Explanation

The no true scotsman fallacy is a way of reinterpreting evidence in order to prevent the refutation of one’s position. Proposed counter-examples to a theory are dismissed as irrelevant solely because they are counter-examples, but purportedly because they are not what the theory is about.

Example

The No True Scotsman fallacy involves discounting evidence that would refute a proposition, concluding that it hasn’t been falsified when in fact it has.

If Angus, a Glaswegian, who puts sugar on his porridge, is proposed as a counter-example to the claim “No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge”, the ‘No true Scotsman’ fallacy would run as follows:

(1) Angus puts sugar on his porridge.
(2) No (true) Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.
Therefore:
(3) Angus is not a (true) Scotsman.
Therefore:
(4) Angus is not a counter-example to the claim that no Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.

This fallacy is a form of circular argument, with an existing belief being assumed to be true in order to dismiss any apparent counter-examples to it. The existing belief thus becomes unfalsifiable. (Source)

The bottom line for me is that I would never fall for a socialist communist like Jim Jones because I heed the warnings about it that are taught by the Catholic Church; therefore, I will always reject communism no matter how sugar-coated someone can make it sound. If any communist tells me that he can provide for me a utopia on earth, I’m going to automatically run the other way because I know that it’s a lie. There wasn’t a single conservative or orthodox Catholic among Jim Jones’ victims. But, his victims were all leftist communists. When someone is optimistic about communism they don’t find out that they have given themselves over to someone like Jim Jones until it’s too late.

 

[Darryl1958]

I would not agree that this is proof of that much “commonalities and cooperations” between “various shades of leftist spectrum.” Frankly, I think most political parties have rogue members with private agendas. I am at the point were I think we need a whole new line of leaders that are more obviously interested in the welfare of the people over big business.

His connections were to the Jerry Brown, governor of California, Rosalynd Carter, wiife of an American president, and Walter Mondale as well.

Believe me, I was as surprised as anybody to stumble across this information. It was a real eye opener to me just how connected such an outspoken communist would be to the movers and the shakers of the Democratic party. These can not credibly be seen as rogue members, nor are they communists, I don’t think. They shared enough goals nevertheless to have developed a working relationship.

 

[livingwordunity]

According to Wikipedia, the liberals were all in love with Jim Jones.

Within five years of the Temple’s move to California, it went through a period of exponential growth and opened branches in cities including San Fernando, San Francisco, and Los Angeles. By the early 1970s, Jones began shifting his focus to major cities because of limited expansion opportunities in Ukiah. He eventually moved the headquarters for the Temple to San Francisco, a major center for radical protest movements at the time. The move led to Jones and the Temple becoming politically influential in San Francisco politics, culminating in the Temple’s instrumental role in the mayoral election victory of George Moscone in 1975. Moscone subsequently appointed Jones as the chairman of the San Francisco Housing Authority Commission.

Unlike most supposed cult leaders, Jones was able to gain public support and contact with prominent politicians in the local and national level. For example, Jones and Moscone met privately with vice presidential candidate Walter Mondale on his campaign plane days before the 1976 election, leading Mondale to publicly praise the Temple. First Lady Rosalynn Carter also personally met with Jones on multiple occasions; corresponded with him about Cuba; and spoke with him at the grand opening of the San Francisco Democratic Party Headquarters, where Jones garnered louder applause than Mrs. Carter.

In September 1977, California assemblyman Willie Brown served as master of ceremonies at a large testimonial dinner for Jones attended by Governor Jerry Brown and Lieutenant Governor Mervyn Dymally. At that dinner, Brown touted Jones as “what you should see every day when you look in the mirror in the early morning hours… a combination of Martin King, Angela Davis, Albert Einstein… Chairman Mao.” Harvey Milk, who spoke at political rallies at the Temple, wrote to Jones after a visit to the Temple: “Rev Jim, It may take me many a day to come back down from the high that I reach today. I found something dear today. I found a sense of being that makes up for all the hours and energy placed in a fight. I found what you wanted me to find. I shall be back. For I can never leave.”

In his San Francisco apartment, Jones hosted San Francisco radical political figures, including Davis, for discussions. He spoke with friend and San Francisco Sun-Reporter publisher Carlton Goodlett about his remorse over not being able to travel to socialist countries such as the People’s Republic of China and the Soviet Union, speculating that he could be Chief Dairyman of the Soviet Union. After his criticisms led to increased tensions with the Nation of Islam, Jones spoke at a huge rally healing the rift between the two groups in the Los Angeles Convention Center that was attended by many of Jones’ closest political acquaintances.

While Jones forged media alliances with key columnists and others at the San Francisco Chronicle and other media outlets, the move to San Francisco also brought increasing media scrutiny. After Chronicle reporter Marshall Kilduff encountered resistance to publishing an exposé, he brought his story to New West magazine. In the summer of 1977, Jones and several hundred Temple members abruptly decided to move to the Temple’s compound in Guyana after they learned of the contents of Kilduff’s New West article to be imminently published, which included allegations by former Temple members they were physically, emotionally, and sexually abused. Jones named the settlement “Jonestown” after himself. (Source)

 

[livingwordunity]

Left and right are relative terms. Who is left and who is right varies across time and across societies.

In all societies, Communism has defined the extreme left. It is based in total economic equality. It involves complete submission of the will of the individual to the will of the State, for any stress on individual differences recreates the underpinnings of social class.

It is about the complete erasure of social classes, not only regardless of birth, but regardless of merit. Almost invariably, this erasure of social classes has involved the mass erasure of individuals who are deemed as being too corrupted by bourgeois values to go about such a diminution of their individual status willingly.

Communism is by self-definition godless because it sees religion as the tool of the elites to control the proletariat classes and keep them submissive.

It is completely materialistic, and defines equality in material terms only, which follows from its basic message of godlessness.

Communism defines the absolute left. To the extent that a leftist diverges from that point of view on one or several of those key points, they are less to the left than a Communist.

 

[O_S_C]

You are using the ‘No True Scotsman’ fallacy.

‘No True Scotsman’ Fallacy
​

You know as well as I that Jim Jones just as well could have been a christian or a buddhist (in fact, he saw himself as these things as well) - cultics and fanatics pop out in sorts of religious and political guises.

If we are to explain the phenomena of Jim Jones we won’t get very far looking at the idea of communism. And you would need some religious component because atheists never commit ritual suicides.

I am not interested in Communism as it exists in the minds of dreamers.

How could you possibly believe in christianity when you can’t even believe in communism? Christianity advocates a more radical transformation of humanity being together than communism does.​

 

[Darryl1958]

O_S_C;11567818....:

How could you possibly believe in christianity when you can’t even believe in communism? Christianity advocates a more radical transformation of humanity being together than communism does.

People contemplating the life and meaning of Christ have indeed radically changed themselves and the course of human history in a myriad of marvellous ways.

The record of communists contemplating Marx has been one of pure evil, more ungodly in effect than even the fascist,s records.

 

[livingwordunity]

You know as well as I that Jim Jones just as well could have been a christian or a buddhist

Jim Jones self-identified as a communist. And all of his followers were communists like him. He only pretended to be a Christian long enough to suck his victims in. Some of his victims may have started out being Christian, but they had no knowledge of the difference between orthodox Christianity and heresy. Jim Jones exploited this ignorance. Most cults attract nominal Christians by presenting them with a quasi-Christianity to initially attract them. They only find out the truth about the communist cults like the Jones cult after they are sucked in and brainwashed into becoming communists. Read the FBI transcript of the tape recording of the day when Jim Jones massacred all of his followers. On the last day, Jim Jones let his true communist colors show.

Jonestown Transcript prepared by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Department of Justice, Washington, D.C.

Jim Jones: “Lay down your life with dignity. Don’t lay down with tears and agony. It’s nothing to death, just like Max said. It’s just stepping over into another plane. Don’t, don’t be this way. Stop this hysterics… This is not the way for people who are socialistic Communists to die … no way for us to die. We must die with some dignity …”

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
One-third of the victims were children. Many were killed by Jones’ aides, who squirted cyanide down their throats.

 

[Cricket2]

You are using the ‘No True Scotsman’ fallacy.

‘No True Scotsman’ Fallacy

Explanation

The no true scotsman fallacy is a way of reinterpreting evidence in order to prevent the refutation of one’s position. Proposed counter-examples to a theory are dismissed as irrelevant solely because they are counter-examples, but purportedly because they are not what the theory is about.

Example

The No True Scotsman fallacy involves discounting evidence that would refute a proposition, concluding that it hasn’t been falsified when in fact it has.

If Angus, a Glaswegian, who puts sugar on his porridge, is proposed as a counter-example to the claim “No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge”, the ‘No true Scotsman’ fallacy would run as follows:

(1) Angus puts sugar on his porridge.
(2) No (true) Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.
Therefore:
(3) Angus is not a (true) Scotsman.
Therefore:
(4) Angus is not a counter-example to the claim that no Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.

This fallacy is a form of circular argument, with an existing belief being assumed to be true in order to dismiss any apparent counter-examples to it. The existing belief thus becomes unfalsifiable. (Source)

The bottom line for me is that I would never fall for a socialist communist like Jim Jones because I heed the warnings about it that are taught by the Catholic Church; therefore, I will always reject communism no matter how sugar-coated someone can make it sound. If any communist tells me that he can provide for me a utopia on earth, I’m going to automatically run the other way because I know that it’s a lie. There wasn’t a single conservative or orthodox Catholic among Jim Jones’ victims. But, his victims were all leftist communists. When someone is optimistic about communism they don’t find out that they have given themselves over to someone like Jim Jones until it’s too late.

Never heard of it, and am glad frankly. All I am saying is this guy was a certifiable nut. The only thing he believed in, regardless of what group he attached himself too, was himself. A true psychopath.

 

[livingwordunity]

Never heard of it, and am glad frankly. All I am saying is this guy was a certifiable nut. The only thing he believed in, regardless of what group he attached himself too, was himself. A true psychopath.

The question is how was Jim Jones able to fool so many on the left into following him and loving him? There wasn’t a single conservative that died in the Jonestown massacre.

 

[Darryl1958]

Jim Jones is as good an example as any of why communism is a very bad idea. Mixing religion into the mix, as well as cult of personality messianism, can turn into an absolutely explosive mix.

 

[livingwordunity]

Jim Jones is as good an example as any of why communism is a very bad idea. Mixing religion into the mix, as well as cult of personality messianism, can turn into an absolutely explosive mix.

The ones who witnessed Jim Jones preaching but who didn’t get caught up in it say that he used to claim he was God. A well-catechized orthodox Catholic or a “bible believing” Protestant fundamentalist would immediately see red flags and run the other way if they ever heard a man say this about himself, but a hippie might not notice the problem with it.

 

[Darryl1958]

The ones who witnessed Jim Jones preaching but who didn’t get caught up in it say that he used to claim he was God. A well-catechized orthodox Catholic or a “bible believing” Protestant fundamentalist would immediately see red flags and run the other way if they ever heard a man say this about himself, but a nominal Christian hippie might not notice the problem with it.

It is worth noting as well, that the extravagances of his Cult of Personality plays itself out in virtually every country where communists come to power. We see it in the USSR with Lenin and Stalin, in China with Mao, in North Korea with the Kims. and Castro, Che, and other leaders of the extreme left are all large than life,. They become Manifestations of charateristics that if not precisely divine in their nature, are at least large than life.

Some people mention early Christianity as an example of communism. It is very possible that a similar sort of process was developing here too, and this is what Paul was warning against about those people who say they were followers of Paul, or Cephas, or Apollos, what he is arguing against is the problem of cult of personality that is endemic with that kind of social relationship.

 

[livingwordunity]

It is worth noting as well, that the extravagances of his Cult of Personality plays itself out in virtually every country where communists come to power. We see it in the USSR with Lenin and Stalin, in China with Mao, in North Korea with the Kims. and Castro, Che, and other leaders of the extreme left are all large than life.

You forgot to mention the cult of personality that’s been going on in America (I won’t mention with who ).

 

[Darryl1958]

You forgot to mention the cult of personality that’s been going on in America (I won’t mention with who ).

There are some comparisons that have been deemed to transgress the boundaries of charity, if not on this forum, then on another.
Suffice it to say that Jim Jones was not the only member of the left that found the church very useful in his efforts to community organize.

But I will refrain from saying more.

 

[livingwordunity]

Do I feel a thrill going up my leg?