Is there any good in Protestant churches?

[linusmom]

I am a member of a Lutheran church, but I have become convicted that it’s central doctrines, i.e. sola scriptura, sola fide, etc. are incorrect. That said, sitting in church yesterday on Reformation Sunday, listening to the sermon about Martin Luther, I was struck by the idea that while I think he was wrong in many ways, here’s this man who spent his life serving God, at least that’s what he appeared to sincerely think. So, if he was wrong and teaching error, but spent his life in prayer and worship and teaching (even if it was incorrect), is this really a bad person? Or is it just that he was completely taken in by his own wrong ideas? I’m curious to hear what cradle Catholics and converts alike think.

Thanks,

Stephanie

 

[crazzeto]

Is there any good there? Well yes… Sola Scriptura may be fundamentally incorrect, but it does tend to instill a deep appriciation of Sacrad Scripture, that’s a good thing. Typically they teach a deep love of at the very least God the Son Christ Jesus, that’s another good thing.

It maybe that Protistants have at best part of the truth, and as you’ve discovered tend to mix error with the partial truth. But that doesn’t negate the fact that there is some truth there, and that this can build good habits (close study of the Bible for instance).

Is this enough to keep you where you are? I guess that’s up to you, if you’re willing to accept the caveot’s you’ve already discovered on your own. Personally I like having the full story to work with, that’s why I’ve remained Roman Catholic.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Are you asking us to make a declaration on Protestantism as a whole or on Martin Luther in particular?

Yes there is good in Protestant churches. The Catholic Church teaches that God uses Protestant churches as a means of salvation. I have found, more often than not, that Protestants who convert to the Catholic Church speak very positively of thier church they left. Not always the case though.

As to Martin Luther. I believe he was a sinner, like myself but I am not his judge.

God bless you

 

[Nominefili]

I think from a Catholic perspective, the non-Catholic church bodies have varying degrees of worth, usually corresponding to how close their doctrine lies to that of the Catholic church. For instance, some non-Catholic churches perform what the Catholics see as valid baptisms, while others don’t. Some have Apostolic succession (Eastern Orthodox, some Lutheran churches, etc.) and may therefore have valid sacraments, but other churches don’t. Ultimately, though, I think that the Catholic position is this: other church bodies may very well contain some truth, but not all of it.

That said, I am still happily a Lutheran. Please send me a private message if you have any questions about Lutheran theology or practice, I would be happy to answer them.

 

[JonNC]

I am a member of a Lutheran church, but I have become convicted that it’s central doctrines, i.e. sola scriptura, sola fide, etc. are incorrect. That said, sitting in church yesterday on Reformation Sunday, listening to the sermon about Martin Luther, I was struck by the idea that while I think he was wrong in many ways, here’s this man who spent his life serving God, at least that’s what he appeared to sincerely think. So, if he was wrong and teaching error, but spent his life in prayer and worship and teaching (even if it was incorrect), is this really a bad person? Or is it just that he was completely taken in by his own wrong ideas? I’m curious to hear what cradle Catholics and converts alike think.

Thanks,

Stephanie

Stephanie,
I think wherever you find the marks of the Trinity, you will find some good. As the previous poster said, and quite well, it may depend on how close we are in doctrine. But then, Lutherans might take a similar view of other traditions. I thought crazzeto and R_C also made excellent points.

Jon

 

[NancyJo]

Are you asking us to make a declaration on Protestantism as a whole or on Martin Luther in particular?

Yes there is good in Protestant churches. The Catholic Church teaches that God uses Protestant churches as a means of salvation. I have found, more often than not, that Protestants who convert to the Catholic Church speak very positively of thier church they left. Not always the case though.

As to Martin Luther. I believe he was a sinner, like myself but I am not his judge.

God bless you

 

[NancyJo]

Could you expand your answer, “the Catholic Church teaches that God uses Protestant churches as a means of Salvation”? Where did you find this? I would like to believe it but I have not seen this before stated as a fact. Thanks NS

 

[GeorgeSword]

It’s not the exact words, but one of the decrees of Vatican II states:

“It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.”

 

[4everjustjesus]

Don’t let anyone ever tell you that there is no good in protestant churches!!! There is good in everything… except the devil of course. But even he was an angel at one time. Meanwhile, are protestant churches all good? No. Is everything they teach true? No.
~ another way to look at it~ Also, any church that believes in the Trinity and believes in Baptism is in imperfect communion with the Catholic church. Because: “There is but one baptism.” (St. Paul… I think ). We (Catholics) Believe that Christ is the head of the CatholicChurch. Christ is the personification of goodness. Anything that involves Christ (in this way) must have good in it. Since (many) churches believe in the Trinity and Baptism, and they are in communion (though imperfect communion) w/ the CC (which is good), the it’s good (not perfectly…). Hope this helps and that I wasn’t too confusing!

4everjustjesus

 

[JonNC]

Could you expand your answer, “the Catholic Church teaches that God uses Protestant churches as a means of Salvation”? Where did you find this? I would like to believe it but I have not seen this before stated as a fact. Thanks NS

Hello, NancyJo, and welcome to CAF. Your Catechism says:

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Hope that helps,
Jon

 

[TheosisM]

Are you asking us to make a declaration on Protestantism as a whole or on Martin Luther in particular?

Yes there is good in Protestant churches. The Catholic Church teaches that God uses Protestant churches as a means of salvation. I have found, more often than not, that Protestants who convert to the Catholic Church speak very positively of thier church they left. Not always the case though.

As to Martin Luther. I believe he was a sinner, like myself but I am not his judge.

God bless you

This is slightly incorrect, as Nominefili described the concept in more detail. The Catholic Church does not teach that God uses Protestant churches as a means of salvation. We do believe that elements of the Truth are found in practically all religions, and that it is possible for a non-Catholic to be saved (by Jesus Christ only). That doesn’t mean that all Protestants or non-Christians will be saved (or even all Catholics), but that it is possible.

 

[James1982]

I am a member of a Lutheran church, but I have become convicted that it’s central doctrines, i.e. sola scriptura, sola fide, etc. are incorrect. That said, sitting in church yesterday on Reformation Sunday, listening to the sermon about Martin Luther, I was struck by the idea that while I think he was wrong in many ways, here’s this man who spent his life serving God, at least that’s what he appeared to sincerely think. So, if he was wrong and teaching error, but spent his life in prayer and worship and teaching (even if it was incorrect), is this really a bad person? Or is it just that he was completely taken in by his own wrong ideas? I’m curious to hear what cradle Catholics and converts alike think.

Thanks,

Stephanie

Not to turn this thread into something it’s not, but I would be curious to hear your story- ie, how you came to these conclusions, when, what you now plan to do, etc. I assume that since you are on these forums you are thinking about taking the leap into the Tiber (converting to roman catholicism)?

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

This is slightly incorrect, as Nominefili described the concept in more detail. The Catholic Church does not teach that God uses Protestant churches as a means of salvation. We do believe that elements of the Truth are found in practically all religions, and that it is possible for a non-Catholic to be saved (by Jesus Christ only). That doesn’t mean that all Protestants or non-Christians will be saved (or even all Catholics), but that it is possible.

I was careful in my choice of words and I specifically chose the words I did because they were from the Catechism:

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as** means of salvation**, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

This does not mean, nor did I say, that every Protestant will be saved.

God bless you

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

To believe there is NO good in Protestantism would go against the catechism itself. We know that there is truth in Protestant circles. Love of Scripture, faith in Christ Jesus crucified, belief in active grace working in our lives, faith in the Holy Spirit’s ability to transform, etc. And some denominations believe in the eucharist, some have confession to some degree, many feed the homeless, many visit the imprisoned, and there are many who have as much faith and love for God as Catholics. There are kernels of truth in most denominations. Which denomination possesses all of the truth is the argument, not which one possesses it in pieces.

 

[TheosisM]

I was careful in my choice of words and I specifically chose the words I did because they were from the Catechism:

This does not mean, nor did I say, that every Protestant will be saved.

God bless you

I stand corrected!

Don’t worry, I did not say that you believed that all Protestants will be saved. I was clarifying my point that it is possible that non-Catholics can be saved.

I think that it is important to emphasize that this claim does not take away from our consistent view of the Catholic Church as the “one true Church”, which is why I personally am not fond of that sentence from the Catechism (since some may ask ‘well if salvation can be found in these other churches, then why be Catholic?’). The fullness of truth is only found in the Catholic Church, though elements of that truth are found elsewhere (and such elements can and do point one towards God), and others can be saved even if they are not within the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church. I think that is an important concept in Unitatis Redintegratio(where the quote comes from).

Hope that makes some sense.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I stand corrected!

Don’t worry, I did not say that you believed that all Protestants will be saved. I was clarifying my point that it is possible that non-Catholics can be saved.

I think that it is important to emphasize that this claim does not take away from our consistent view of the Catholic Church as the “one true Church”, which is why I personally am not fond of that sentence from the Catechism (since some may ask ‘well if salvation can be found in these other churches, then why be Catholic?’). The fullness of truth is only found in the Catholic Church, though elements of that truth are found elsewhere (and such elements can and do point one towards God), and others can be saved even if they are not within the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church. I think that is an important concept in Unitatis Redintegratio(where the quote comes from).

Hope that makes some sense.

Not a problem.

God bless you

 

[GeorgeSword]

Are you asking us to make a declaration on Protestantism as a whole or on Martin Luther in particular?

Yes there is good in Protestant churches. The Catholic Church teaches that God uses Protestant churches as a means of salvation. I have found, more often than not, that Protestants who convert to the Catholic Church speak very positively of thier church they left. Not always the case though.

As to Martin Luther. I believe he was a sinner, like myself but I am not his judge.

God bless you

You believe he was a sinner? Rather, you know it. All men are sinners. All of the saints (excluding the Blessed Virgin herself) were sinners. All of the Popes, from Peter to Benedict, were and are sinners, All men are sinners, and certainly not just Protestants.

 

[thirdn6]

Could you expand your answer, “the Catholic Church teaches that God uses Protestant churches as a means of Salvation”? Where did you find this? I would like to believe it but I have not seen this before stated as a fact. Thanks NS

Hi, welcome to CAF.

They are mere means of salvation. Sort of … like internet search engines that should point you or take you to the correct site when engaged. They are not means of salvation in the sense that they are also some Bodies of Christ. The One Body of Christ which correctly applies to the only visible Catholic Church (on earth). They are mere ways or instruments that would lead you to knowing the Catholic Church for they possess some truths in them. Remember that the Catholic Church still maintains that …“they cannot be saved those who refuse to enter it or those who will not remain in it, …except by invincible ignorance”, knowing that there is only one Church founded by Christ.

Peace. But Truth is more important…

 

[kristanl]

You believe he was a sinner? Rather, you know it. All men are sinners. All of the saints (excluding the Blessed Virgin herself) were sinners. All of the Popes, from Peter to Benedict, were and are sinners, All men are sinners, and certainly not just Protestants.

The Church teaches Mary was without sin. (The dogma of the immaculate conception).

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

You believe he was a sinner? Rather, you know it. All men are sinners. All of the saints (excluding the Blessed Virgin herself) were sinners. All of the Popes, from Peter to Benedict, were and are sinners, All men are sinners, and certainly not just Protestants.

That was precisely my point. No where in my post did I indicate that “just Protestants” are sinners. What would be the point of confession if this were so

Roman_Catholic:

As to Martin Luther. I believe he was a sinner,** like myself **but I am not his judge.

God bless