Is there any good in Protestant churches?

[GeorgeSword]

That was precisely my point. No where in my post did I indicate that “just Protestants” are sinners. What would be the point of confession if this were so

God bless

My apologies, I honestly misread your post
This is what comes of ‘skimming’ through threads from time to time.

 

[NancyJo]

This is the first time I have ask a question. I am surprised that so many took the time to respond. You have been most helpful. Thanks. Nancy

 

[wmscott]

Could you expand your answer, “the Catholic Church teaches that God uses Protestant churches as a means of Salvation”? Where did you find this? I would like to believe it but I have not seen this before stated as a fact. Thanks NS

This is from the CCC, does this help?

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

I am a member of a Lutheran church, but I have become convicted that it’s central doctrines, i.e. sola scriptura, sola fide, etc. are incorrect. That said, sitting in church yesterday on Reformation Sunday, listening to the sermon about Martin Luther, I was struck by the idea that while I think he was wrong in many ways, here’s this man who spent his life serving God, at least that’s what he appeared to sincerely think. So, if he was wrong and teaching error, but spent his life in prayer and worship and teaching (even if it was incorrect), is this really a bad person? Or is it just that he was completely taken in by his own wrong ideas? I’m curious to hear what cradle Catholics and converts alike think.

Thanks,

Stephanie

I’m going to address the original post here. I’m just going to share my pwn experience, so I am sorry if I say something someone else did

I started out as protestant, and I was in a ministry program in college to become a minister for the Assemblies of God. A far cry from Lutheranism, but we still studied it, and I had many friends who were lutheran. When we learned the details of the reformation and Martin Luther, it was as if he saved the church and was a saint of sorts. It didn’t set well with me at all. And I was protestant!!!

I saw Martin Luther as having addressed abuses in the church. However, as devoted to God as he was he was a hot head and had an ego about him. You can see this in his writings. This got in the way of the good work he was trying to do. There was someone else in the same position as Luther. St. Francis of Assissi. While St. Francis peaceably fought the injustices and prayed, Luther took a more direct and far less diplomatic approach. He started very angrily persuing things and offending even good faithful catholics. This caused a reaction that landed him in a lot of hot water. Rather than trying to get back in good graces to keep the church in tact and fighting the injustice, he just left. He branched out, rebelled, and spat in the faces of authority.

A good example of his ego, bravado, and lack of education as far as everything that was going on was his translation of the bible into German. One of his major problems was scripture not being in native languages. However, several decades before he was even BORN the very first book put together on the printing press was released: The Guttenberg Bible. A bible in its entirety printed totally in German. There already WAS a german bible, and scholars were working across the workd to translate the bible into various languages. At the time an English bible was being worked on and in french, although only parts had been translated when arrived on the scene.

The truth is, if it weren’t for Luther’s ego and his rebellious actions he would more than likely be hearalded as a saint on par with St. Francis. But he let his ego get in the way of his good work, and completely fragmented the body of christ in this action.

I do think protestant church now are good. Many of them don’t exist to openly rebel against the catholic church. Many of them are good christian people trying to seek truth as best as they can.

 

[crazzeto]

@Whitacre_Girl

That is an interesting perspective on Martin Luther, new to me as a cradle catholic. I have just started becoming interesting in studying the protistant fathers, to be better informed as to how protistantism evolved and where modern day protistants are coming from. It might take a while before I actually get to any real study of their works, I’m still playing major catch up in a lot of area’s here.

 

[Nominefili]

@Whitacre_Girl

That is an interesting perspective on Martin Luther, new to me as a cradle catholic. I have just started becoming interesting in studying the protistant fathers, to be better informed as to how protistantism evolved and where modern day protistants are coming from. It might take a while before I actually get to any real study of their works, I’m still playing major catch up in a lot of area’s here.

If you’re interested in learning about Lutheranism, here’s a great place to start:

bookofconcord.org/

Our church confessional writings, apologetic writings, catechisms, etc. are contained there. Just read the Unaltered Augsburg Confession and the Apology of the Augsburg Confession to get started. Also the Small Catechism (or Large Catechism if you’re feeling theological. )

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

@Whitacre_Girl

That is an interesting perspective on Martin Luther, new to me as a cradle catholic. I have just started becoming interesting in studying the protistant fathers, to be better informed as to how protistantism evolved and where modern day protistants are coming from. It might take a while before I actually get to any real study of their works, I’m still playing major catch up in a lot of area’s here.

You definatly should. It’s amusing to me (and my husband) that it took studying the Reformation (by protestants) that turned me catholic! LOL

 

[crazzeto]

If you’re interested in learning about Lutheranism, here’s a great place to start:

bookofconcord.org/

Our church confessional writings, apologetic writings, catechisms, etc. are contained there. Just read the Unaltered Augsburg Confession and the Apology of the Augsburg Confession to get started. Also the Small Catechism (or Large Catechism if you’re feeling theological. )

Thanks, I’ve found several sources for these writings referneced from what appear to me to be good nutral sites. Mainly I’m interested in getting unaltered access to writings of, and reliable writings about (including quoatations if they exist) the protistant Fathers. Ultimatly I can never get behind disunity in the faith, schism is never good even though I’ve always admited the Church needed some reform at the time these folks came up.

Still, I think it always helps to more fully understand the people you are conversing with.

 

[Nominefili]

Thanks, I’ve found several sources for these writings referneced from what appear to me to be good nutral sites. Mainly I’m interested in getting unaltered access to writings of, and reliable writings about (including quoatations if they exist) the protistant Fathers. Ultimatly I can never get behind disunity in the faith, schism is never good even though I’ve always admited the Church needed some reform at the time these folks came up.

Still, I think it always helps to more fully understand the people you are conversing with.

Well to be honest I’m as proud a son of the Reformation as anyone, but I wouldn’t bother with Zwingli. He scares me.

Calvin says some good stuff, and then all of a sudden you’re like… wait, what? Just read his commentaries and you’ll see what I mean.

Wesley is later but he’s not all bad. Meh, I’m good with Luther though.

 

[Jon_Hus]

While there is much in Whitacre_Girl’s comments that are at best incorrect, I will address two areas:

…I saw Martin Luther as having addressed abuses in the church. However, as devoted to God as he was he was a hot head and had an ego about him. You can see this in his writings. This got in the way of the good work he was trying to do. There was someone else in the same position as Luther. …St. Francis of Assissi. While St. Francis peaceably fought the injustices and prayed, Luther took a more direct and far less diplomatic approach. He started very angrily persuing things and offending even good faithful catholics. This caused a reaction that landed him in a lot of hot water. Rather than trying to get back in good graces to keep the church in tact and fighting the injustice, he just left. He branched out, rebelled, and spat in the faces of authority.

…

First of all, while it is true that Luther had a temper, he did not show it when he was required to defend his beliefs to the bishops that wanted to have his head chopped off. The historical record shows his mannerism before the councils to be nothiong but humble. Your comments show that you really haven’t studied much of Luther.

…A good example of his ego, bravado, and lack of education as far as everything that was going on was his translation of the bible into German. One of his major problems was scripture not being in native languages. However, several decades before he was even BORN the very first book put together on the printing press was released: The Guttenberg Bible. A bible in its entirety printed totally in German. There already WAS a german bible, and scholars were working across the workd to translate the bible into various languages. At the time an English bible was being worked on and in french, although only parts had been translated when arrived on the scene.

Luther, as a RCC priest and professor of Bible knew Latin and Greek. You may not like Luther, but to say that he lacked education is silly. So, lets talk about your education my dear Whitacre_Girl:

The Guttenberg Bible, which was one of, if not the first book printed by movable type in Europe (Germany) circa 1450 was the Latin Vulgate, not the German language Bible. As for English language Bibles, John Wyclif translated the NT into “Middle English” around 1380. His translation was from the Vulgate. You and I cannot read middle english which would be better described as anglo-saxon. Of course, for his efforts, the bishops of Rome dug up Wyclif’s bones and burned them.

It wasn’t until 1525 (after the reformation started) that the first truly useful english translation of the Bible (in early modern english) came about, this was the work of William Tyndale who translated the NT from the greek. His version came after Luthers German Bible. In 1536, the bishops of Rome were able to burn Tyndale’s bones while he was still using them to support his body.

I have a copy of Tyndale’s 1526 New Testament in my collection and it’s a lot of fun to read. In many ways easier than the 1560 Geneva Bible or the original spelling version of the 1611 King James.

Have a great day!
Jon

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

While there is much in Whitacre_Girl’s comments that are at best incorrect, I will address two areas:

First of all, while it is true that Luther had a temper, he did not show it when he was required to defend his beliefs to the bishops that wanted to have his head chopped off. The historical record shows his mannerism before the councils to be nothiong but humble. Your comments show that you really haven’t studied much of Luther.

Not in front of councils no, but in his writings, letters, and other doculents he was downright hostile. Have you read these?

Luther, as a RCC priest and professor of Bible knew Latin and Greek. You may not like Luther, but to say that he lacked education is silly. So, lets talk about your education my dear Whitacre_Girl:

The Guttenberg Bible, which was one of, if not the first book printed by movable type in Europe (Germany) circa 1450 was the Latin Vulgate, not the German language Bible. As for English language Bibles, John Wyclif translated the NT into “Middle English” around 1380. His translation was from the Vulgate. You and I cannot read middle english which would be better described as anglo-saxon. Of course, for his efforts, the bishops of Rome dug up Wyclif’s bones and burned them.

It wasn’t until 1525 (after the reformation started) that the first truly useful english translation of the Bible (in early modern english) came about, this was the work of William Tyndale who translated the NT from the greek. His version came after Luthers German Bible. In 1536, the bishops of Rome were able to burn Tyndale’s bones while he was still using them to support his body.

I have a copy of Tyndales 1526 New Testament in my collection and it’s a lot of fun to read. Inmany ways easier than the 1560 Geneva Bible or the original spelling version of the 1611 King James.

Have a great day!
Jon

1. Don’t call me dear. Especially when you are about to insult me. That’s rude, belittling, and bad taste. Besides, it doesn’t reflect on your viewpoints and discussion when you have to couple “fact” with insult of your opponent.

I said he lacked education is as much as he was blissfully unaware of trasnlations of the bible that existed in German long before he hit the scene. I would argue that his whole point in translation was to debate which part of scriptures he wanted to change as he left out a verse here and there, and debated leaving the book of James out entirely.

As I said before, he did good in that he called attention to the abuses that were beoming more common, but his temper and rebellious sprirt destroyed church unity, and he will answer for in in my honest opinion. Luther was hardly the soft spoken holy man that many people would try to paint him as.

 

[Jon_Hus]

1. Don’t call me dear. .

Yes dear

 

[crazzeto]

Wow, and I was just developing such a positive vibe from this forum and thread in particular. I was so happy to see Catholics and Protistants alike giving useful respectful answers.