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TraditonRules
Guest
I appreciate your honesty about purgatory.“Explicit” is not biblical.
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inkaneer
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
I knew you were biblicaly ignorant. I posted the reference to purgatory n My post #84 wherein I wrote:
“Those in purgatory are saved and do go to heaven. Scripture tells you this so I am somewhat surprised that you, being a sola scripturist, don’t know that. Of course, Purgatory is one of those things that did not fit early protestant ideas so they simply denied it and you are the recipient of their error. But scripture still attests to the saved man who on the day of judgement goes through a purification by fire. That is a pretty explicit depiction of purgatory. In fact, purgatory is more explicit in the Bible than the concept of the Trinity that Christians have. Christians understand the Trinity in terms of person and essence and substance. These are extra biblical concepts that come to us from Greek philosophy but were used by the Church to define the Godhead. Nowhere in scripture or even Jewish philosophical thought are these concepts found.”
Notice the part I emboldened. Now lets go to the scripture passage itself, shall we? It is found in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. Here it is in the RSV:
“11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” And here in the KJV:
"11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. 14If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Now you may say this is not speaking of purgatory or this is not explicit enough. BUT, if you do claim that then you tell us where in any protestant theology that a saved man goes through a fire. The only fire in protestant theology is hell fire and saved people do not experience it. But here a saved man goes through a fire where his works are tested and the ones that do not pass muster are burned away. The imagery is an exact description of purgatory.
You also deny the Eucharist is Jesus’ body and Blood even though Jesus says “This is my Body” and “this is my Blood”. Guess that isn’t explicit enough for you either.
Originally Posted by inkaneer
I knew you were biblicaly ignorant. I posted the reference to purgatory n My post #84 wherein I wrote:
“Those in purgatory are saved and do go to heaven. Scripture tells you this so I am somewhat surprised that you, being a sola scripturist, don’t know that. Of course, Purgatory is one of those things that did not fit early protestant ideas so they simply denied it and you are the recipient of their error. But scripture still attests to the saved man who on the day of judgement goes through a purification by fire. That is a pretty explicit depiction of purgatory. In fact, purgatory is more explicit in the Bible than the concept of the Trinity that Christians have. Christians understand the Trinity in terms of person and essence and substance. These are extra biblical concepts that come to us from Greek philosophy but were used by the Church to define the Godhead. Nowhere in scripture or even Jewish philosophical thought are these concepts found.”
Notice the part I emboldened. Now lets go to the scripture passage itself, shall we? It is found in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. Here it is in the RSV:
“11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” And here in the KJV:
"11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. 14If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Now you may say this is not speaking of purgatory or this is not explicit enough. BUT, if you do claim that then you tell us where in any protestant theology that a saved man goes through a fire. The only fire in protestant theology is hell fire and saved people do not experience it. But here a saved man goes through a fire where his works are tested and the ones that do not pass muster are burned away. The imagery is an exact description of purgatory.
You did not answer my question. Here it is again. In 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 the scriptures plainly tell of a saved man going through a test of fire. So where is this in protestant theology where people who are saved go through a test of fire???
You also deny the Eucharist is Jesus’ body and Blood even though Jesus says “This is my Body” and “this is my Blood”. Guess that isn’t explicit enough for you either.
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bogeydogg
Guest
That’s OK they also deny this one…
Colossians 2:11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
Where St Paul plainly says that baptism not only replaces circumcision, which means it should be given to infants, but also applies to us the death of Christ and His resurrection and the forgiveness of sins both those that we commit and those we have in our flesh (Original sin) that forgiveness which Christ earned for us on the Cross.
But the Protestants insist that Baptism is just a symbol. And yet, every time someone wants to “recommit” their lives they get re-baptized. So the logic is…
A) Baptism is a symbol, and thus it has no power.
B) When someone wants to give themselves to Jesus we apply the miracle power of Baptism (which does not exist) to them.
If you can’t track with the logic its because there isn’t any.
God Bless
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TraditonRules
Guest
Fire now equals purgatory, laughable bliss my friend.
First Corinthians 3:13-14 and the Idea of Purgation. The apostlePaul,in 1 Corinthians 3:13-14, makes this statement: “Each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will discloseit, becauseit will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sortof work each onehasdone. Ifthework that anyone has built on the foundation survives,hewill receivea reward. Ifanyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will besaved, but only as through fire.”
6 Paul’s statements are clear. It is the man’s works that are being judged, not his person or soul. The issue at stake is not his salvation or eternal state (heaven or hell), but his rewards. The fire of Christ’s judgment will test the nature of his earthly works; this judgment does nothing to the sanctification of his soul. In fact, Paul makes it very clear that though his rewards may be lost, yet "he himself will be saved."When Paul mentions “the Day,” he refers to “the Day of the Lord”: the day of the return of Christ and the final judgment of the living and the dead. Verse 14 simply amplifies and explains verse13.
7 Paul’s point is obvious: not all Christian ministers (or saints) will receivethesamereward. The final judgment will test the nature of our life’s work. Some men’s work will prove to be as pure as gold, silver, or precious jewelsand will begreatly rewarded. Other Christians will do little with their lives, and their works will be likewood,hay,and straw-consumed by Christ’s fiery judgment. The person who has trusted in Christ, however, will be saved and brought through the fire of judgment because of his faith in Christ. Some will have greater rewards, some will have lesser rewards, but the works of a man do not determine if he goes to heaven or hell. Faith in Christ (or not) seals a person’s eternal destiny. David Prior summarizes well what Paul is saying: “These verses in 1 Corinthians 3 urge us to take with full seriousness both the certainty of eternallifeand the scrutiny which the Lord will bring to our daily service as Christians.” 8
First Corinthians 3:13-14 and the Idea of Purgation. The apostlePaul,in 1 Corinthians 3:13-14, makes this statement: “Each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will discloseit, becauseit will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sortof work each onehasdone. Ifthework that anyone has built on the foundation survives,hewill receivea reward. Ifanyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will besaved, but only as through fire.”
6 Paul’s statements are clear. It is the man’s works that are being judged, not his person or soul. The issue at stake is not his salvation or eternal state (heaven or hell), but his rewards. The fire of Christ’s judgment will test the nature of his earthly works; this judgment does nothing to the sanctification of his soul. In fact, Paul makes it very clear that though his rewards may be lost, yet "he himself will be saved."When Paul mentions “the Day,” he refers to “the Day of the Lord”: the day of the return of Christ and the final judgment of the living and the dead. Verse 14 simply amplifies and explains verse13.
7 Paul’s point is obvious: not all Christian ministers (or saints) will receivethesamereward. The final judgment will test the nature of our life’s work. Some men’s work will prove to be as pure as gold, silver, or precious jewelsand will begreatly rewarded. Other Christians will do little with their lives, and their works will be likewood,hay,and straw-consumed by Christ’s fiery judgment. The person who has trusted in Christ, however, will be saved and brought through the fire of judgment because of his faith in Christ. Some will have greater rewards, some will have lesser rewards, but the works of a man do not determine if he goes to heaven or hell. Faith in Christ (or not) seals a person’s eternal destiny. David Prior summarizes well what Paul is saying: “These verses in 1 Corinthians 3 urge us to take with full seriousness both the certainty of eternallifeand the scrutiny which the Lord will bring to our daily service as Christians.” 8
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bogeydogg
Guest
The first sentence you quoted was…Paul’s statements are clear. It is the man’s works that are being judged, not his person or soul. The issue at stake is not his salvation or eternal state (heaven or hell), but his rewards
This is the Doctrine of Purgatory as the fire that is spoken of is the purgation of the soul as the man prepares to enter into his Heavenly reward. The Church does not teach that Purgatory is a weigh Starion betwixt Heaven and Hell where a man is determined by his works which way he will go, but is rather a place reserved for the saved. The fires of purgation burn away the chaff in the life of the saved and refine the gold silver and precious gems.
The quotes you gave actually define quite clearly the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory they do not refute it in the least. Purgatory is for the saved. It the place where the dross is burned away as we prepare to face God. It is not punishment. It is a place of great expectation and mercy as God purifies us to be in His Holy presence. It is the final step of preparation it is the end of sanctification. It is the last and greatest grace we receive before we enter into the presence of God.
The damned do not go to purgatory, the damned go to Hell. Period. And the two should never be confused.
God Bless
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TraditonRules
Guest
You may very well be correct based upon Traditon, biblically speaking purgatory is no where to be found and a man made phenomenon
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bogeydogg
Guest
That the Bible speaks of some sort of purgation, which even protestant preachers agree with, is not a man made tradition.
God Bless
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septimine
Guest
One thing that I would point out is that up until the year 300 something, the Bible wasn’t a single book that you picked up in the library, and so without the church, you really don’t have the Bible. If you’d been Sola Scriptura in the year 200, you have a big problem – there were thousands of Scripturas to pick from. Barnabas wrote some epistles, Clement did, Peter is credited with a Gospel, to say nothing of the Gnostic stuff. You’d be unable to say anything with authority because there was no single Bible. One guy pulls out the Scroll of John and the other guy pulls out Valentinian and you have nothing to say that one of them is not right – after all Sola Scriptura.
The other thing is that other churches DO have traditions. Pentecostals believe that unless you speak in tougues, you’re not yet a Christian. Baptists have altar calls to become saved. Nothing of the sort is actually in the Bible. Jesus didn’t give altar calls and didn’t insist on babbling. Then you go on to stuff Jesus said but aren’t followed – like the Eucharist, it’s started by Jesus, yet you’ll never see it in a Baptist Church. It’s not that SS is aweful by itself, but that it simply allows people to take a few ideas and leave the rest.
The other thing is that other churches DO have traditions. Pentecostals believe that unless you speak in tougues, you’re not yet a Christian. Baptists have altar calls to become saved. Nothing of the sort is actually in the Bible. Jesus didn’t give altar calls and didn’t insist on babbling. Then you go on to stuff Jesus said but aren’t followed – like the Eucharist, it’s started by Jesus, yet you’ll never see it in a Baptist Church. It’s not that SS is aweful by itself, but that it simply allows people to take a few ideas and leave the rest.
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bogeydogg
Guest
Reading your post has caused me strike upon an irony.
If in 200AD you were a Sola Scriptura person, you were a Jew who denied any Christian Scriptures at all, and as such, likely also denied Christ.
Those who were Christians, then as now, relied on the Church no matter the denomination.
God Bless
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inkaneer
Guest
Apparently you have a wrong idea of what purgatory is all about. That is not unusual as i have seldom found any protestant who does understand it. So let’s try to unravel your false ideas, Okay?
First the “day” that is mentioned is judgement day. Whether it is the day we die or the day of the general judgement really doesn’t matter for our discussion. The man, we are told, is saved, therefore he has already been judged. What his reward will be is being determined by his works in accord with scripture [Romans 2:5-7]. The fire mentioned is a purification fire. The man goes through the purification fire because he is the one who needs purification to enter heaven. His good works are like gold and silver which are refined with fire while the works that are not good [nonmortal sin and its attachments] are consumed by the same fire. Revelation 21:27 says of heaven that nothing unclean shall enter it and all sin is unclean. But scripture also tells us that not all sin damns one to hell. 1John 5:16 speaks of a sin that is not deadly. So no one enters heaven with even the slightest sin, even one that does not damn him to hell. So in order for this man to be in heaven he must be purged of this nonmortal sin before he enters in. This purging is what we call purgatory.
So to sum up it is the man who goes through the fire with his works. The man has already been judged as saved and now his works are being tested. The good works are purified while the sinful works are burned off. The man emerges clean [purged of uncleanliness] so he can enter heaven. Notice there is no mention of any one who is not saved. The passage only applies to those who are saved for they are the ones who need to be clean to enter heaven. The unsaved exerience a fire also but it is a fire of damnation not purification. 1Cor 3:11-15 is as explicit a description of purgatory that you will find and if you deny it then you are in the unenviable position of denying scripture.
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Nicea325
Guest
Man-made phenomenon? Which means it has a human origin or creator(s),thus why have you failed to present what I have been asking you? Show me when,where and who created this man-made phenomenon?
BTW: Please **explicitly **show me the chapter and verse about the canon of the Bible?
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Gabriel_Serafin
Guest
Purgatory is alluded to many times in Scripture, but is not clearly defined, much like the concept of the Holy Trinity. Thus these doctrines as well as the Bible itself is dependent upon Sacred Tradition. After all, we only know the books of the Bible are inspired because of Sacred Tradition since the Bible itself does not tell us what books are contained therein. The Church was teaching with authority long before the New Testament was even written down. Christ did not hand out Bibles; He established a Church and gave her authority to teach. Woe to those who hear the teaching yet reject it . As for Purgatory, the word itself means “purification” and Jesus Himself alludes to it here:
“Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.” Matt. 18:32-35
Then again Jesus speaks about Purgatory here:
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"If you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift. “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.*
To claim that Purgatory is not in the Bible is no different than what Jehova Witnesses say when they claim the Trinity is nowhere mentioned in the Bible.
People need to stop being self-appointed freelance Bible interpreters. Jesus Christ established a Church with authority to teach the truth.
Here’s a powerful video of a man who lived a sinful life and had a near death experience and saw a glimpse of Hell and Purgatory: VISION OF PURGATORY
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TraditonRules
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TraditonRules
Guest
“Alluded to” and “not clearly defined”, we can agree to that.
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Gabriel_Serafin
Guest
Exactly. Much like the doctrine of the Holy Trinity and the Hypostatic Union. Do you also question the Trinity?
But tell me, what did Jesus mean when He said:
"In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. “***This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.” *** Matt. 18:32-35
"the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny."
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Handed over to jailers? tortured until all is payed back? What jailers is Jesus talking about? What torture? What do the pennies represent?
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Nicea325
Guest
Still dodging my question-eh?Still waiting and have been for weeks, explicit scripture on purgatory- good luck.
Show me when,where and who created this man-made phenomenon? Good luck!
Show me where the Bible teaches or mentions EXPLICITNESS?
BTW: Please explicitly show me the chapter and verse about the canon of the Bible?
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EricFilmer
Guest
Speaking of people who are “still waiting” for things, I’m still waiting for your response to the questions I presented to you six days ago in Post #109.Still waiting and have been for weeks, explicit scripture on purgatory- good luck.
This is now the third time I’ve asked you to address these questions.
Moreover, your insistence on debating others in this thread about purgatory is getting off-topic. The thread topic concerns the problems with Sola Scriptura, not purgatory. So if you still claim that Scripture alone is the final authority then kindly put your position to the test by giving me some straight answers to the questions I presented to you back in Post #109.
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Nicea325
Guest
TraditionRules bsaically demands explicit proof from the Bible about purgatory,yet none of my questions I have not been answered either? Nice double-standard-eh?
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TraditonRules
Guest
No offense our neighbor can do to us can compare with our debt to God!
We have been forgiven a debt which is beyond all paying; to ransom our debt of sin God gave up his only begotten Son.
If God has forgiven each of us our debt, which was very great, we, too must forgive others the debt they owe us. Jesus teaches that one must forgive in order to be forgiven. If we do not forgive our fellow man we cannot expect God to forgive us…
Sorry this has zero ,zip, nothing to do with purgatory.
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TraditonRules
Guest
Easy.
Purgatory is an extrabiblical idea,imported into the church in the MiddleAges-a product of tradition but not Scripture.
And the Catholic efforts at grasping for hermeneutical straws to support this false belief-“fire,” “the age to come,” “souls in prison”-betray a lack of clear, precise, and biblical evidence for that place called purgatory.
Thanks for playing!
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