Is there any room for improvement?

[Cat]

Can we stop discussing permanent deaconate on this thread? Isn’t it a separate topic than the very excellent topic that the OP raised?

There is a connection between benedictgal’s post and my post. I mentioned music and benedictgal discussed liturgy.

I think that in using vague language, the Church was trying to be wise and allow for lots of variation in the celebration of Mass within the rubrics.

However, in the U.S., this has just created a mess, IMO. Many of the threads in the Liturgy section have to do with various abuses and irregularities in the Mass, and the rest of the threads have to do with music in Mass.

So I honestly think that in the U.S., it would be better if there were less freedom and more hard rules about what is and isn’t acceptable in the Mass.

E.g., right now the documents have incredibly stretchy instructions involving use of instruments other than pipe organ. Some people like benedictgal interpret these sections of the documents to mean that instruments like drums and guitars and even the piano are never to be used in Mass. Other people like me interpret the documents to mean that intruments can be used as long as they are not exclusively secular (and what, pray tell, does THAT mean?!).

I think it would be best if the Church would just list the instruments that can be used in Mass, and forbid all other instruments. E.g., the list could read like this:

May be used: Pipe organ, trumpet during certain liturgical feasts (see attached list)

May not be used: Piano, guitar, drums, violins, woodwinds, brass instruments with exception of trumpet on certain liturical feasts, all electronic keyboards, banjo, kazoo, dulcimer, sitar, etc. etc.

This is clear and concise and leaves NO ROOM for argument or debate. If people don’t like it…well, we don’t like it now! There is just too much wiggle room, and it leaves people like me who play the piano at Mass feeling very uncomfortable knowing that there are people out there in pews hating our instrument and thinking bad thoughts about us; e.g., that we are “theatrical” or “showing off” or “trying to grab the spotlight” or worst of all, “too Protestant.” I personally would rather just not ever play than feel so on edge all the time wondering when one of these ultra-conservative Catholics is going to confront me after Mass and tell me that I am committing an abuse by playing a “secular” or “Protestant” instrument. Thankfully many of the people in my parish, including the priests, thank me for my playing. But I know they’re out there, probably writing letters to the bishop about the “gospel style” of the “fat blonde pianist” who plays at the vigil Masses, and asking the bishop to please stop this outrage against the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

I’m guessing that our bishop is probably at the Milwaukee conference, since we’re only 90 miles away. We got our diocescan newspaper yesterday, so I’ll check his schedule. Hope he’s there. He’s a great bishop.

 

[SimonDodd]

Cat, can we stop discussing liturgical music on this thread? Isn’t it a separate topic than the very excellent topic that the OP raised? Only kidding, but point made, I trust. Every plausible response to the topic could be regarded as a topic in itself—some of them so much that they have not only whole threads devoted to them but whole forums. If this thread doesn’t discuss issues which could be discussed separately, it won’t discuss anything. And, frankly, Edward and I have exchanged two or three posts, which is hardly sucking all the air out of the room.

On your comment itselt: I agree with almost everything you say, but the problem—this is probably why it hasn’t been done—is deciding what goes on which list. Drums are obviously out. Pipe organ is obviously in. But what about piano? Flute? Violin? People will disagree, and disagree quite passionately, about whether those instruments should be used. Last winter, my parish often had piano accompanied by a violin or flute, and it was quite beautiful. It’s easy to cite marginal examples of instruments that have no place at Mass, but most instruments fall somewhere in between. Once marginal instruments are excluded, I tend to think that the content of the music looms larger than its instrumentation. David Haas is still David Haas, even if played on pipe organ.

 

[benedictgal]

At the risk of derailing the thread, and with apologies to the OP, here is the 2001 declaration issued by the Holy See regarding women and the diacnonate (as reported by Adoremus):

The Holy See issued a Notification on September 17 reaffirming that ordination of women is not possible, directing that programs aimed at preparing women for ordination to the diaconate be discontinued, and that bishops apply appropriate measures.
The Notification follows recent agitation from feminist individuals and organizations for the ordination of women deacons including a “Worldwide Ordination of Women” conference held in Dublin in July, attended by about 300.

The Notification was approved by Pope John Paul II on September 14 and issued by the Congregations for the Doctrine of the Faith, for Divine Worship and the Discipline of Sacraments and for Clergy, and signed by the respective prefects, Cardinals Joseph Ratzinger, Jorge Arturo Medina Estévez and Dario Castrillon Hoyos.

The text, as it appeared on Vatican Information Service, follows:

Notification

1. Our offices have received from several countries signs of courses that are being planned or underway, directly or indirectly aimed at the diaconal ordination of women. Thus are born hopes which are lacking a solid doctrinal foundation and which can generate pastoral disorientation.

1. Since [the Church] does not foresee such ordination, it is not licit to enact initiatives which, in some way, aim to prepare women candidates for diaconal ordination.

1. The authentic promotion of women in the Church, in conformity with the constant ecclesial Magisterium, with special reference to [the teaching] of His Holiness John Paul II, opens other ample prospectives of service and collaboration.

1. The undersigned Congregations within the sphere of their proper authority thus turn to the individual ordinaries, asking them to explain [this] to their own faithful and to apply diligently the above-mentioned directives.

It is important to note that one of the signers of the declaration was none other than the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger who was signing in his capacity as Prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

 

[Cat]

Cat, can we stop discussing liturgical music on this thread? Isn’t it a separate topic than the very excellent topic that the OP raised? Only kidding, but point made, I trust. Every plausible response to the topic could be regarded as a topic in itself—some of them so much that they have not only whole threads devoted to them but whole forums. If this thread doesn’t discuss issues which could be discussed separately, it won’t discuss anything. And, frankly, Edward and I have exchanged two or three posts, which is hardly sucking all the air out of the room.

On your comment itselt: I agree with almost everything you say, but the problem—this is probably why it hasn’t been done—is deciding what goes on which list. Drums are obviously out. Pipe organ is obviously in. But what about piano? Flute? Violin? People will disagree, and disagree quite passionately, about whether those instruments should be used. Last winter, my parish often had piano accompanied by a violin or flute, and it was quite beautiful. It’s easy to cite marginal examples of instruments that have no place at Mass, but most instruments fall somewhere in between. Once marginal instruments are excluded, I tend to think that the content of the music looms larger than its instrumentation. David Haas is still David Haas, even if played on pipe organ.

I used liturgical music, specifically instruments, as an example of my point, which was that I would like the Church to be specific about the rubrics of the Mass. I could just as easily have used the example of altar girls or whether a screen is permissible in the church, or when it is appropriate to call upon EMHCs (less than 100 = no EMHCs, 100-200 = 1 EMHC, 200-300 = 2 EMHCs, etc.–SPECIFIC numbers, not just priest’s choice), or Communion in the Hand vs. Communion on the Tongue or any of the many controversies regarding Mass that have come up in CAF over and over again.

I think that it would be wonderful if the Church made it all crystal-clear and took away absolutely any choice in the matter. End of debates.

As for deciding what goes on the list of instruments, according to some CAF members, it’s obvious–only the pipe organ is allowed because that’s what Pope Benedict XVI apparently thinks. So that’s fine–all other instruments are out, and pipe organ is in, and in climates and countries where pipe organs don’t exist, there’s no instrumental music. I don’t really care–I would just like to see it all spelled out beyond a shadow of a doubt so that people don’t fight about it.

Lists of approved hymns, by name, would be a great improvement. It would put a stop to debates about the appropriateness or inappropriatenes of many hymns and songs currently done in Mass. The wording in th various documents is just too vague and allows too much freedom of interpretation, and this causes arguments and bad feelings, and it also leads to so many variations in Masses around the U.S. which makes Catholics feel like they’re in a a Protestant church.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I think for what its worth that all the topics mentioned are things that could bring about improvements. I personnally have no problem with most any musical instrument used in the Mass, It is the music istself that is the problem. I is kind of a joke i have with a few in my parish that when I have the need to do hard penance, I do to the mass with the guitar and tamborine music group. Again its not the instruments it the style of the music. To me is all sounds like it come for a 1970’s Sid and Marty Kroft saturday morning kids show. I truly expect to see HR Puff n` Stuff to come dancing across in front of the altar.

As to the ordination of women to the diaconate. The argument can be raised that in the Bible there is mention of a women diacon. In RCIA, that I assist my Priest in the class teach, he explian that as saying the churchs has seen this as a ministy that in todays world we know as the sisters (nuns), and that their ministry was limited to other women. That being said they would not have been ordained, nor be deacons as we know them over the last 1800 years or so.

Other improvments could be that the Priest just follow the Rubics as written and not go by what the feel is being said, regardless of the vague language. The laity inturn quit doing and saying I don’t care what the priest (church) says I don’t believe that. If there are things that we don’t agree with we need to pray for exceptance and understanding.

I come from a rule of thought that the appearance of piety, will breed piety. to borrow a protestant term very “high church”.

 

[Edward_H]

BenedictGal

Thank you for the homework. That pretty much closes that path of discussion, I think.

Returning to improvement, it seems the Mass and the Eucharist are / will be the source(s) of any “improvement”. It’s where we get our strength and our identity.

Anything that helps people learn this, deepen their appreciation of this, should lead to improvement, including deepening our reverence, our humility, our desire to embrace the cross in our daily life, our desire to spread joy and peace to ALL people.

A beautiful and short video on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (pardon me, I’ve pointed in other forums to this) can be found here. 3 minutes long.

opusdei.us/art.php?p=38802

Here, Fr Wauck reminds us that the Mass itself offers a program, the program, of daily life for all of us…adoration, thanksgiving, reparation for our sins, union/communion, and petition.

So each Mass tells us / reminds us / how each day of our life should be lived.

Beautifully done video. 3 minutes.

 

[SimonDodd]

BenedictGal, thanks for finding that, it’s helpful. Still, it should be read with some care, and careful discernment of its limits. It says that the Church has no immediate intention to ordain women to the diaconate, and it rebukes (as I read it) certain bishops who have tried to force Rome’s hand and raised false hopes in doing so. What it does not do is disclaim eccleial authority to do so, or designate the issue unsuitable for debate. (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is instructive as a comparison point.)

I have to say that one thing that might be an improvement is recognition by the Vatican that while the Church doesn’t exist for the moment, it necessarily exists in the moment. Taking the long view is one thing, but it is a mistake to suppose that what happens today is merely a passing wave with no serious ramifications for the long view. Thus, I understand and to an extent agree with what John Allen writes here, but you only have to dip lightly into the sewer of NCR’s comments to see that the decision to refuse the resignations creates scandal that can be exploited by the Church’s critics to rip wavering members of the faithful away. How does it advance Christ for Ireland to be lost to the Church? It would have been wiser to just let them go. (The problem becomes even more puzzling when the issue is not substance but presentation, as in Elizabeth Scalia’s comments here.)

 

[Edward_H]

Improvement will come from greater understanding and expression of true Love - found in the Eucharist - not from sea lawyers and mere human language.