Is there any such thing as accidents?

[JDaniel]

But why is this so? Again, it does not happen to all young drivers.

Robert:

That’s why they’re called “accidents.”

Could be that older drivers have successfully dealt with their unconscious conflicts to a deeper degree than young drivers.

Or, could it be that older drivers have had more experience, therefore, training, of a sort? When an trained piano player hits a particular key, it is not by accident. When a trained piano player hits an off-key, it, more than likely, is an accident - unless he wants the piece to purposely sound ugly. There are lots of factors at work here: the proximity of the keys to each other, the extent of the training, the recent sleep cycle of the piano player, the unexpected entrance of another person into the room, or the barking of his dog.

You could say that successful young drivers are simply lucky, but my response would be to ask what is luck?

Winning at blackjack.

And how do we determine if it’s simply the absence of certain unconscious conflicts.

Arbitrarily, perhaps?

God bless,
jd

 

[Robert_Sock]

Robert:

That’s why they’re called “accidents.”

Do you believe that God or Satan would leave anything to chance? How did you rule out possible unconscious factors?

Or, could it be that older drivers have had more experience, therefore, training, of a sort? When an trained piano player hits a particular key, it is not by accident. When a trained piano player hits an off-key, it, more than likely, is an accident - unless he wants the piece to purposely sound ugly. [snip]

Again, why do you rule out unconscious factors here.

Winning at blackjack. [snip]

Now your talking ‘luck.’ What your calling luck could really be an unconscious voice of God (or Satan) telling the the dealer how to shuffle the deck, and having you sit down and play at an exact moment in time. The disciples of Christ cast lots to pick the new Apostle, knowing that God was in control of the outcome! If you believe the book of Acts, and the power of God, you ought to believe this also.

 

[JDaniel]

I lost all my faith in ‘science’ long ago. Time and time again, we have science correcting itself. To believe in coincidences is to undermine the profound fact that God created it all, and left nothing to chance. All will be truly known only when we die and go to Heaven. Patients!

Robert:

When God saw what He had created, He said that it “was good,” not that it was “perfect.” When it comes to matter, it is not considered to be perfect. A child born with a deformity did not secretly intend the deformity. It occurs inasmuch as God permits it to occur, according to the stroke of His paintbrush.

If all else was perfect, all else would be God-ness. I believe that God is in the gaps of our own material latices, but, that He has an infinity of reasons for doing each and everything that He does while in the act of creating.

He permits us to think and reason. Doing so, He does not keep everything aloof from the possibility of our souls’ enlightenment.

God bless,
jd

 

[PeterGStanley]

We have free will if not then were just automatons walking through life with no will of our own simply following a predetermined destiny.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Robert:

When God saw what He had created, He said that it “was good,” not that it was “perfect.” When it comes to matter, it is not considered to be perfect. A child born with a deformity did not secretly intend the deformity. It occurs inasmuch as God permits it to occur, according to the stroke of His paintbrush.

If all else was perfect, all else would be God-ness. I believe that God is in the gaps of our own material latices, but, that He has an infinity of reasons for doing each and everything that He does while in the act of creating.

He permits us to think and reason. Doing so, He does not keep everything aloof from the possibility of our souls’ enlightenment.

God bless,
jd

But it is commonly taught in Catholicism that God knew beforehand, the actions of each individual prior to having created the physical world. Everything is in perfect harmony with God’s will.

 

[Robert_Sock]

We have free will if not then were just automatons walking through life with no will of our own simply following a predetermined destiny.

Free will does not preclude the fact that God knows beforehand the actions of each and every person. (see the above post).

 

[JDaniel]

Do you believe that God or Satan would leave anything to chance? How did you rule out possible unconscious factors?

Robert:

I didn’t. I came to the conclusion after years of living in a world that consists of a myriad of occurring exigencies, some of which that make sense to us and others that don’t. I know that occasionally unconscious factors come into play. But, I also know that such do not account for everything that happens. On a Florida beach, with a thousand swimmers, the rare one that gets bitten by a shark is more than likely not due to a self-inflicted desire for self-harm.

Now your talking ‘luck.’ What your calling luck could really be an unconscious voice of God (or Satan) telling the the dealer how to shuffle the deck, and having you sit down and play at an exact moment in time. The disciples of Christ cast lots to pick the new Apostle, knowing that God was in control of the outcome! If you believe the book of Acts, and the power of God, you ought to believe this also.

But, here you are suggesting a sort of psychological cause for everything that occurs to us. I believe that God causes everything, whether it occurred in what we perceive as the past, or whether it is occurring as we speak. In the sense that God causes everything, there are no accidents for Him. But, we’re not Gods. And, in only an infinitesimally minute way, we are like Him.

God bless,
jd

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Are you inferring that some events have no cause whatsoever? Does such a view undermine the story of Creation and give credence to people like Richard Dawkins?

There are events that are not necessarily driven by intent, but this isn’t the same as the event having no cause. I personally don’t like the use of “chance” or “luck” when used in most physical explanations. (Though I am fine when “chance” being used in the context of a statistical distribution such as “The chances of rolling an even or an odd number are the same” or “when rolling two die one has the highest chance of rolling a 7” or when talking about the influence on a factor, such as “The chance of some one hitting a larger target with an arrow is greater than the chance of the person hitting the smaller one”).

No, I don’t need any statistics at this time unless they have somehow ruled out unconscious factors.

From reading through the rest of the messages that you post it sounds like you are not only taking into consideration what a person’s decisions and thoughts may be, but what God’s intentions are (in other words every thing that happens either happens by God’s will or by the person’s will). If that’s what you are getting at then I don’t there’s any way to prove or disprove it.

If what you are getting at is that accidents that people get into are expressions of their own will then that is where I would raise disagreement. While it is possible that some one has on some level willfully put them self into a situation that would result in harm I don’t think that this is always the case. In just looking at car accidents you’ll find that by changing visibility (which reduces one’s knowledge of the path she is navigating) or changing road conditions (which will change how the car reacts to the driver) that rate at which people have accidents go up. There’s a road in southern California that sees very little rain. Dusty debris and oil from vehicles tends to have more time to accumulate there and when it does rain the oil comes to the surface making the road a lot slick than most roads are in rainy conditions. When it rains the rate of accidents on this road go up by about 200%.It’s information like this that the NTHSA has been collecting over the years that could be presented to support my earlier expressed view.

The other technique is simply getting in touch with one’s inner voices, and knowing when to listen to which voice. I drive my therapist nuts talking about all my conversations with my inner voices, and she therefore diagnosed me as being schizoaffective… but I take it as a complement.

I think what may be going on here is a difference of semantics. I think people expressing their thoughts through conversations with themself is quite usual. Though they don’t always label them as voices. My coworkers and I refer to it as one’s “stream of consciousness”; when a person is “speaking to himself” (something that some people take as a sign of mental defect) it’s quite possible that one is expressing her stream of consciousness with their voice. One can have conflicting streams / thoughts too which may be quasi-personified in manners like “my good half and my bad half” and so on. But this isn’t necessarily an indication of dis-associative or schizo behaviour.

 

[JDaniel]

But it is commonly taught in Catholicism that God knew beforehand, the actions of each individual prior to having created the physical world. Everything is in perfect harmony with God’s will.

Robert:

Our speed is not God’s speed. We are embedded in time, past, present, and (prayerfully) future. We are inextricably tied to “motion.” God cannot be, in His infiniteness. It is very important that we don’t conflate our “time” with His timelessness. Using the descriptive term, “beforehand,” unfortunately imparts a twist that is tough to explain in any other way - for most people, including me. But, it’s not exactly what is meant.

God bless,
jd

 

[Robert_Sock]

Robert:

I didn’t. I came to the conclusion after years of living in a world that consists of a myriad of occurring exigencies, some of which that make sense to us and others that don’t. I know that occasionally unconscious factors come into play. But, I also know that such do not account for everything that happens. On a Florida beach, with a thousand swimmers, the rare one that gets bitten by a shark is more than likely not due to a self-inflicted desire for self-harm.

But, here you are suggesting a sort of psychological cause for everything that occurs to us. I believe that God causes everything, whether it occurred in what we perceive as the past, or whether it is occurring as we speak. In the sense that God causes everything, there are no accidents for Him. But, we’re not Gods. And, in only an infinitesimally minute way, we are like Him.

But I stated in the OP that I believe that all the unconscious is driven by God or Satan.

So, we both agree that God causes EVERYTHING. That’s comforting to know, and it also supports the notion the all accidents are caused.

It seems that you are still reluctant to attribute this cause to the unconscious, but we are free to disagree a little, I guess. Again, I personally believe that God and Satan work through the cognitive unconscious. But the main thing for me is to emphasize that God (or Satan) causes everything, regardless of how this gets implemented. How do you think that God implements His will upon us? Did you ever ponder this?

 

[Robert_Sock]

There are events that are not necessarily driven by intent, but this isn’t the same as the event having no cause. I personally don’t like the use of “chance” or “luck” when used in most physical explanations. (Though I am fine when “chance” being used in the context of a statistical distribution such as “The chances of rolling an even or an odd number are the same” or “when rolling two die one has the highest chance of rolling a 7” or when talking about the influence on a factor, such as “The chance of some one hitting a larger target with an arrow is greater than the chance of the person hitting the smaller one”).

From reading through the rest of the messages that you post it sounds like you are not only taking into consideration what a person’s decisions and thoughts may be, but what God’s intentions are (in other words every thing that happens either happens by God’s will or by the person’s will). If that’s what you are getting at then I don’t there’s any way to prove or disprove it.

If what you are getting at is that accidents that people get into are expressions of their own will then that is where I would raise disagreement. While it is possible that some one has on some level willfully put them self into a situation that would result in harm I don’t think that this is always the case. In just looking at car accidents you’ll find that by changing visibility (which reduces one’s knowledge of the path she is navigating) or changing road conditions (which will change how the car reacts to the driver) that rate at which people have accidents go up. There’s a road in southern California that sees very little rain. Dusty debris and oil from vehicles tends to have more time to accumulate there and when it does rain the oil comes to the surface making the road a lot slick than most roads are in rainy conditions. When it rains the rate of accidents on this road go up by about 200%.It’s information like this that the NTHSA has been collecting over the years that could be presented to support my earlier expressed view.

I think what may be going on here is a difference of semantics. I think people expressing their thoughts through conversations with themself is quite usual. Though they don’t always label them as voices. My coworkers and I refer to it as one’s “stream of consciousness”; when a person is “speaking to himself” (something that some people take as a sign of mental defect) it’s quite possible that one is expressing her stream of consciousness with their voice. One can have conflicting streams / thoughts too which may be quasi-personified in manners like “my good half and my bad half” and so on. But this isn’t necessarily an indication of dis-associative or schizo behaviour.

Sorry for not having the energy to answer each of your statements individually (I type using two fingers), but it seems that we are largely in agreement in attributing all ‘accidents’ (and other events) to God. I also think that my responses to JDaniel will clarify my position on things. If they do not, then repost your concerns and I’ll try to address them the best I can.

(My main point is that God and Satan work through the unconscious. For example, a person getting into an accident because of an oil slick forgetting to take dangerous road conditions into account while driving. Also, one person may hit a small target more frequently than another qualified person is able to hit a large target. This too can point to unconscious factors have come into play.)

 

[Robert_Sock]

[snip]How do you think that God implements His will upon us? Did you ever ponder this?

For those who believe that all events are determined by God, consider the above quote of mine. If I’m able to get a few philosophers to ponder the the first question, then my effort will have been well worth it. Your continued thoughts and comments are greatly appreciated.

 

[tonyrey]

Are you inferring that some events have no cause whatsoever? Does such a view undermine the story of Creation and give credence to people like Richard Dawkins?

Coincidences have more than one cause. They occur when two events occur at the same time and in the same place. They do not undermine Creation because they are inevitable, foreseen and permitted by God. If a universe is immensely complex not all coincidences are beneficial.

 

[Robert_Sock]

If God communicates to us through dreams, and dreams are a part of the cognitive unconscious, it would follow that God can communicate to us though this unconscious. And if God communicates to us through the unconscious, it would follow that God uses the unconscious to implement His will. Moreover, if God implements His will through the unconscious, it would follow that God can use the unconscious to cause accidents which are a part of His will.

Does the above argument follow logic? The keyword, I guess, is “can.” The argument that all accidents are caused by God or Satan through the unconscious would be plausible, but not necessarily correct.

 

[tonyrey]

If God communicates to us through dreams, and dreams are a part of the cognitive unconscious, it would follow that God can communicate to us though this unconscious. And if God communicates to us through the unconscious, it would follow that God uses the unconscious to implement His will. Moreover, if God implements His will through the unconscious, it would follow that God can use the unconscious to cause accidents which are a part of His will.

Does the above argument follow logic? The keyword, I guess, is “can.” The argument that all accidents are caused by God or Satan through the unconscious would be plausible, but not necessarily correct.

If **all **accidents were caused by God or Satan through the unconscious then free will and moral responsibility would be myths!

 

[Ismael]

I was first introduced to the notion that there are no such thing as an accident in an undergraduate personality course I was taking. Its adherents, which included Freud, is that all accidents are caused by unconscious factors, such as an underlying wish to commit harm, including the wish to harm oneself. At first thought, I was totally at odds with with such a view, but through careful introspection over the years, I have come to believe that, indeed, there are no such thing as accidents. I now believe that all accidents are ultimately caused by God or Satan, via the cognitive unconscious.

I’m not sure if this will catch the fancy of philosophers on this forum, but I would like to put the question out there for possible discussion. I hope that this does not insult, but leads to deeper reflection.

Well one could say Freud was a pervert

Anyway chaos theory proves Freud wrong.

Take science: we cannot predict the exact future of things except for theoretical simple systems (like the path of a ball) we often musty invoke chaos theory and statistics.

In the REAL world (i.e. not the artificial constructs of science*) things are even more complicated.

((* What I mean is not that science is wrong or fake, but that systems used to illustrate theories are artificial. Real systems have never an “exact solution” but always an approximated one… that goes even for Classical Mechanics, let alone Quantum Mechanics))

now believe that all accidents are ultimately caused by God or Satan, via the cognitive unconscious.

I do not think it works that way.

Sure God or the devil might intervene supernaturally or preternaturally, but I do not think it’s correct to find some higher menaing into every accidental occurrence, that’s more superstition than anything else.

 

[Robert_Sock]

If **all **accidents were caused by God or Satan through the unconscious then free will and moral responsibility would be myths!

Thanks for your reply, but I don’t follow your logic here. It would seem to me that there could still be free will and moral responsibility in the much larger arena of life where accidents are not involved. Keep in mind that my definition of accidents is being restricted to unfortunate mishaps that causes damage or injury.

 

[tonyrey]

Thanks for your reply, but I don’t follow your logic here. It would seem to me that there could still be free will and moral responsibility in the much larger arena of life where accidents are not involved. Keep in mind that my definition of accidents is being restricted to unfortunate mishaps that causes damage or injury.

If** all ***unfortunate mishaps *were prevented then it would be obvious that a benevolent power exists. It would also be impossible to predict events because the laws of nature would no longer be universal.

 

[Robert_Sock]

If** all **unfortunate mishaps were prevented then it would be obvious that a benevolent power exists.

Perhaps, but God may allow accidents to happen to promote a greater good, such as searching our conscience. For example, I often ‘accidentally’ bite my tongue, but I immediately look for ways I may have transgressed a commandment of God. Only in our Afterlife will God be able shed His benevolence upon us.

It would also be impossible to predict events because the laws of nature would no longer be universal.

Aren’t the laws of nature really the creation of God here in the physical world? How would these laws of nature change if God chooses to allow Satan to torment us through mishaps? Does God ever allow these mishaps to happen by chance? No, I’m saying that God ultimately wills all mishaps. I’m also saying that there is no such thing as any natural event happening independently of God’s will. I guess you could say that God’s law includes having natural events to happen by chance, but this would seem to be your own assumption that can never be proven through earthly ‘science.’

 

[tonyrey]

If* all ***

If no person or animal is ever injured or killed in an accident it will certainly make people investigate but they wouldn’t find a scientific explanation.

.

… but God may allow accidents to happen to promote a greater good, such as searching our conscience. For example, I often ‘accidentally’ bite my tongue, but I immediately look for ways I may have transgressed a commandment of God. Only in our Afterlife will God be able shed His benevolence upon us.

That is true but there is no convincing reason to believe **all **accidents promote a greater good for the victims who suffer and die prematurely and violently.

It would also be impossible to predict events because the laws of nature would no longer be universal.

Aren’t the laws of nature really the creation of God here in the physical world?

Of course but they are universal and do not change to prevent injuries or deaths.

How would these laws of nature change if God chooses to allow Satan to torment us through mishaps?

They are either accidental or caused by Satan!
Two explanations are superfluous.

Does God ever allow these mishaps to happen by chance? No, I’m saying that God ultimately wills all mishaps.

I believe it is truer to say God permits mishaps because an accident-free world is a physical impossibility. We cannot expect to have everything for nothing. Every advantage has a corresponding disadvantage and having a body is no exception. Sensitivity is a two-edged sword…

I’m also saying that there is no such thing as any natural event happening independently of God’s will.

I agree but it is God’s ultimate Will. Unlike Calvin I don’t believe God directly wills every drop of rain. He doesn’t deliberately cause diseases, disasters and deformities for our benefit.

I guess you could say that God’s law includes having natural events to happen by chance, but this would seem to be your own assumption that can never be proven through earthly ‘science.’

Do you believe all natural events can ultimately be explained by science? Is there any other explanation apart from the element of Chance? To attribute **all **harmful events to Satan would give him an unbelievable amount of power…