Is there any such thing as accidents?

[Robert_Sock]

If no person or animal is ever injured or killed in an accident it will certainly make people investigate but they wouldn’t find a scientific explanation.

.That is true but there is no convincing reason to believe **all **accidents promote a greater good for the victims who suffer and die prematurely and violently.
Of course but they are universal and do not change to prevent injuries or deaths.
They are either accidental or caused by Satan!
Two explanations are superfluous.
I believe it is truer to say God permits mishaps because an accident-free world is a physical impossibility. We cannot expect to have everything for nothing. Every advantage has a corresponding disadvantage and having a body is no exception. Sensitivity is a two-edged sword…

I agree but it is God’s ultimate Will. Unlike Calvin I don’t believe God directly wills every drop of rain. He doesn’t deliberately cause diseases, disasters and deformities for our benefit.

Do you believe all natural events can ultimately be explained by science? Is there any other explanation apart from the element of Chance? To attribute **all **harmful events to Satan would give him an unbelievable amount of power…

Thanks for taking the time to address my questions and comments! I think I can see where you are coming from, but I still feel that most, if not all, mishaps (using its simple meaning) are caused by Satan through the unconscious.

In the Hereafter, with our glorified bodies, there will be no possibility of accidents (i.e., there will be no evil spirits to cause them). Moreover, I believe that God will provide us the precise information we need, at the exact moment that information is needed, to avoid all mishaps and carry out any duties we may volunteer for.

I also feel that God has ultimate control over the actions of Satan, and in doing so is exercising His attribute of severity here in this world (borrowed from Jewish mysticism). But I also believe that God blesses us with His attribute of mercy. (In the Tanya, a most useful set of book employed by Chabad, it is said that our world was once controlled using evil alone, but the world was not able to sustain itself without some LOVE.) See the following site if you would like to engage in the daily readings of the Tanya: chabad.org/dailystudy/default_cdo/jewish/Daily-Study.htm

 

[Robert_Sock]

If no person or animal is ever injured or killed in an accident it will certainly make people investigate but they wouldn’t find a scientific explanation.

.That is true but there is no convincing reason to believe **all **accidents promote a greater good for the victims who suffer and die prematurely and violently.
Of course but they are universal and do not change to prevent injuries or deaths.
They are either accidental or caused by Satan!
Two explanations are superfluous.
I believe it is truer to say God permits mishaps because an accident-free world is a physical impossibility. We cannot expect to have everything for nothing. Every advantage has a corresponding disadvantage and having a body is no exception. Sensitivity is a two-edged sword…

I agree but it is God’s ultimate Will. Unlike Calvin I don’t believe God directly wills every drop of rain. He doesn’t deliberately cause diseases, disasters and deformities for our benefit.

Do you believe all natural events can ultimately be explained by science? Is there any other explanation apart from the element of Chance? To attribute **all **harmful events to Satan would give him an unbelievable amount of power…

I would be thankful if you could address two more sets of questions.

Aren’t we comparing apples to oranges in saying that the laws of nature must be uniform? Consider that humans have an unconscious that heavily influences behavior, whereas raindrops colliding have no consciousness whatsoever. Remember that the crux of my argument has to do with mishaps in humans, and not nature in other realms of our physical world.

Also, do you really think that there will still be mishaps when our soul is finally united with our bodies in the World to Come? Or, do you think that our glorified bodies will somehow not have a physical nature? (Christ was able to walk through a locked door with His resurrected body, but the Apostles were able to touch and feel Him; and Revelations does not directly specify whether the new earth will be physical.)

 

[JDaniel]

But I stated in the OP that I believe that all the unconscious is driven by God or Satan.

RS:

I disagree. I believe that our unconscious minds are moved by our own mal-habituations that move our picture memories into conformance with some of our most salacious thoughts. God instigates REM, but not the dreams and sequences of our picture memories when in REM. We do that by our own habituations.

So, we both agree that God causes EVERYTHING. That’s comforting to know, and it also supports the notion the all accidents are caused.

Everything except sin.

It seems that you are still reluctant to attribute this cause to the unconscious, but we are free to disagree a little, I guess. Again, I personally believe that God and Satan work through the cognitive unconscious. But the main thing for me is to emphasize that God (or Satan) causes everything, regardless of how this gets implemented. How do you think that God implements His will upon us? Did you ever ponder this?

Again, I disagree. I believe God implements his Will by reconfiguring that lattice of point particles (which appear to our senses as our bodies, and any adjacent bodies) through their perfect contact with his infinite “substance.” But, this does not per se produce “sin.” I believe it takes an effort of our souls to countermand his motive Will towards the "good"and move us to sin. All of our actions are “natural” and contain no “evil.” Satan, through trickery, sometimes brings God’s good and natural actions into alignment with our sometimes not so good or natural intentions.

God bless,
jd

 

[Robert_Sock]

RS:

I disagree. I believe that our unconscious minds are moved by our own mal-habituations that move our picture memories into conformance with some of our most salacious thoughts. God instigates REM, but not the dreams and sequences of our picture memories when in REM. We do that by our own habituations.

I believe that you may be severely denying the vast power of the unconscious on human behavior by limiting the unconscious to mal-habituations and sleep. As one quick example, consider the effects of classical conditioning to produce conditioned reflexes. In addition, consider the multitude of unconditioned reflexes that have a huge effect on the human mind and arise from the unconscious; sleep is but one, where the activation of one part of the brain totally inhibits consciousness. These are things that are well documented by Pavlov. Then there is a vast amount of literature on subliminal conditioning, and the arena of hypnosis. Using cognitive reflexes and deep hypnosis, I think I could come up with a nice model for how the unconscious can influence mishaps. Of course, I believe Satan and God do have a much greater amount of knowledge in producing mishaps via the unconscious.

Everything except sin.

OK.

Again, I disagree. I believe God implements his Will by reconfiguring that lattice of point particles (which appear to our senses as our bodies, and any adjacent bodies) through their perfect contact with his infinite “substance.”

You completely lose me here. My area of expertise is psychology, and I have no idea what you’re getting at. Can you please simplify things for us simpletons?

But, this does not per se produce “sin.”

You keep bringing sin into the picture, but it is nowhere in the OP. Can you please explain why you’re emphasizing it so much?

I believe it takes an effort of our souls to countermand his motive Will towards the "good"and move us to sin. All of our actions are “natural” and contain no “evil.” Satan, through trickery, sometimes brings God’s good and natural actions into alignment with our sometimes not so good or natural intentions.

Would you deny that humans have an inclination towards evil through the sin of Adam and Eve? Would you deny that all of our actions are ultimately based on the supernatural? Again, you’re losing me here, and I don’t quite understand what you’re trying to get at. Please relate your thoughts to mishaps and the unconscious. When you say that all our actions are natural, you seem to be writing off the effects of the supernatural, in which case we’re in serious disagreement.

Thanks for your patients!

 

[tonyrey]

*If no person or animal is ever injured or killed in an accident it will certainly make people investigate but they wouldn’t find a scientific explanation.

Our bodies are subject to the laws of nature like everything else in the universe even though we can control our behaviour. Mishaps occur to us in the same way that they apply to other forms of life.

Also, do you really think that there will still be mishaps when our soul is finally united with our bodies in the World to Come? Or, do you think that our glorified bodies will somehow not have a physical nature? (Christ was able to walk through a locked door with His resurrected body, but the Apostles were able to touch and feel Him; and Revelations does not directly specify whether the new earth will be physical.)

Mishaps occur only in a physical world. Nothing happens by chance in the World to Come, thank God.

 

[Gricken]

But why is this so? Again, it does not happen to all young drivers. Could be that older drivers have successfully dealt with their unconscious conflicts to a deeper degree than young drivers. You could say that successful young drivers are simply lucky, but my response would be to ask what is luck? And how do we determine if it’s simply the absence of certain unconscious conflicts.

Well they are NEW drivers, I would assume they aren’t fully use to a car. Haven’t mastered the mulch-tasking required to drive one (such as having to look at 5 different things at once) and have yet to fully grasp a cars capabilities. No " unconscious conflicts" are required.

Just my 2 cents

 

[Robert_Sock]

RS:

I disagree. I believe that our unconscious minds are moved by our own mal-habituations that move our picture memories into conformance with some of our most salacious thoughts. God instigates REM, but not the dreams and sequences of our picture memories when in REM. We do that by our own habituations.

Everything except sin.

Again, I disagree. I believe God implements his Will by reconfiguring that lattice of point particles (which appear to our senses as our bodies, and any adjacent bodies) through their perfect contact with his infinite “substance.” But, this does not per se produce “sin.” I believe it takes an effort of our souls to countermand his motive Will towards the "good"and move us to sin. All of our actions are “natural” and contain no “evil.” Satan, through trickery, sometimes brings God’s good and natural actions into alignment with our sometimes not so good or natural intentions.

God bless,
jd

You can forget my former post to you. I was really rambling on. But please address the following Jewish quote:

“A person learns most of his wisdom at night”
-Maimonides

Does this strongly suggest the power of the unconscious, and God’s ability to speak to us through it?

 

[Robert_Sock]

Well they are NEW drivers, I would assume they aren’t fully use to a car. Haven’t mastered the mulch-tasking required to drive one (such as having to look at 5 different things at once) and have yet to fully grasp a cars capabilities. No " unconscious conflicts" are required.

Just my 2 cents

Yes, I’m aware that they are new drives and do not have the practice in driving cars as do older drivers, but again, not all inexperienced drivers get into accidents. What are the underlying factors the prevent some young drivers from getting into an accident, but not others? Is it really due to chance alone, or is somehow influenced by God and Satan? If you say the former, then prayers for God’s protection are totally fruitless. And I’m now interested in all unconscious factors, and not just conflicts.

 

[Gricken]

Yes, I’m aware that they are new drives and do not have the practice in driving cars as do older drivers, but again, not all inexperienced drivers get into accidents. What are the underlying factors the prevent some young drivers from getting into an accident, but not others? Is it really due to chance alone, or is somehow influenced by God and Satan? If you say the former, then are prayers for God’s protection are fruitless. And I’m now interested in all unconscious factors, and not just conflicts.

If everyone got into accidents, it wouldn’t be an accident. You seem to think that either God or Satan has to have a direct role in everything that happens in our lives. I’ve always thought the term “tacit approval” is good for describing most mundane incidents in our lives, God is aware of what happens, but doesn’t always influence things one way or another. Permits things to go a certain way, so to speak.

 

[Robert_Sock]

If everyone got into accidents, it wouldn’t be an accident. You seem to think that either God or Satan has to have a direct role in everything that happens in our lives. I’ve always thought the term “tacit approval” is good for describing most mundane incidents in our lives, God is aware of what happens, but doesn’t always influence things one way or another. Permits things to go a certain way, so to speak.

So prayers for God’s protection are totally fruitless? And guardian angels are mere fairy tales?

 

[Gricken]

So prayers are totally fruitless? And guardian angels are mere fairy tales?

Of course not. Prayer is asking for intercession. I never said they were fruitless. But I do remember being told that prayer is for us to open ourselves to god, not for god to change things to fit us. I would like to understand how you go from what I said (That god lets us live out most of our lives without a direct influence on our actions) to what you said (prayer is meaningless) I don’t see how one flows into the other.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Of course not. Prayer is asking for intercession. I never said they were fruitless. But I do remember being told that prayer is for us to open ourselves to god, not for god to change things to fit us. I would like to understand how you go from what I said (That god lets us live out most of our lives without a direct influence on our actions) to what you said (prayer is meaningless) I don’t see how one flows into the other.

It was actually a question I posed in my previous post that you commented upon. You seemed to be insinuating that prayers for God’s protection are fruitless. My apologies. Back to my previous post, what about prayers for God’s protection? And what role do guardian angels play if not to protect us from harm? How does God (and guardian angels) implement their positive influence in such instances if not through the unconscious?