Is there any way to stop a devout Catholic couple from getting divorced?

[Roseeurekacross]

Others have advised to fully know the situation before acting which is what I have sought to do. The spouse told me what the clergy told them, which was extremely disheartening. The spouse confided in me with their despair and hopelessness. Their child pleaded with me to help because the spouse’s closest friend in the parish has only encouraged divorce while many in the parish have followed your advice and allowed their friend’s marriage to self-destruct, all in the name of anti-gossip and mind-your-own-business-ism.

John, in every marriage breakup there will be despair and hopelessness felt. We are human, we have emotions.

Again. others have advised to fully know the situation,
But in that advise, how can you know the situation. Its all heresay and gossip.

Have you spoken to both parties? Do both want to speak to you? Will they be honest? Are they being honest now? No marriage falls apart purely because one party is accused , to others outside the marriage, of mismanaging money.

Are you a counsellor? A Psychologist? If not, your advice or chat with the what you assume to be the errant spouse could do an incredible amount of damage.

You have the situation of the marriage of close friends breaking down. Did you see it coming? Did the leaving spouse confide in you? Did anyone see it coming?

Yes its tough for children, but we are not called to fix everything. Surely the male spouse needs to man up and try to fix this himself, or if its the female, she needs to do this for herself.

With professional help.

You are out of your depth. You have to be if you are asking advice on the internet. The spouse already has advice from their Priest.
Dont interfere.

Just pray.

And yes, stop gossiping about this situation to others and tell others to stop.

Imagine the spouse reading what you have written here. Would it help, knowing the entire church community is gossiping?

 

[EasterJoy]

Others have advised to fully know the situation before acting which is what I have sought to do. The spouse told me what the clergy told them, which was extremely disheartening. The spouse confided in me with their despair and hopelessness. Their child pleaded with me to help because the spouse’s closest friend in the parish has only encouraged divorce while many in the parish have followed your advice and allowed their friend’s marriage to self-destruct, all in the name of anti-gossip and mind-your-own-business-ism.

It is also no more than what secular people would do.

This is the way Dr. Phil puts it, as an example:
If you want out of a marriage, earn your way out. Turn over every stone. Investigate every avenue of rehabilitation, so when the day comes that your child looks at you and says, Mom, Dad, why did I have to grow up with just one parent?’ You don’t have to say, Well, we just quit having fun.’ You need to be able to say, `Look, we did everything we could do. We went to counselors, we read books, we prayed, we did this, we did that, and we decided it was best for everybody if we lived separately but loved you kids together.’ If you can’t say that with peace in your heart, you’re not ready to get divorced.

Mind you, he is not saying “you’re not ready before God or society.” He is saying that if you have not gone to counseling, not done any of the emotional work for what life after divorce is really going to be like, you yourself are not ready for divorce.

Divorce is a hellish experience, even for those who objectively are in invalid marriages or who have a right to a separation with the bond remaining. This has nothing to do with whether or not the person leaving has been “wronged” or not. It has to do with getting the emotional work that leads to divorce done BEFORE the divorce, so that the negatives are minimized as much as possible and the necessity of getting a divorce as a redress to the problems in the marriage has been truly confirmed.

Don’t express doubt that the spouse who is filing is truly at her wit’s end. Try to convince her that the way to stay in and the best way out are both in the same direction, which is through the emotional work of real good-faith marriage counseling.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

“”"The reasons given were that the other spouse mishandled money which seems like a lie from other sources. “”

You dont even believe the one given reason for breakdown of the marriage.

You cannot approach this in any objective way.

Seriously, how would you feel if everyone was gossiping about a given reason for a divorce and claiming it must be a lie.

That is negating the spouse who left, totally negating what that spouse thinks and feels. Its very wrong.
And very cruel.

 

[mdgspencer]

Before acting, you should pray much.
People are different, so if you do try to do something, you should try to discern how to proceed, with God’s help.

 

[EasterJoy]

Before acting, you should pray much.
People are different, so if you do try to do something, you should try to discern how to proceed, with God’s help.

Very good advice. Vital, even.

 

[macstar]

If you feel you must say something, maybe say something along the lines of, “I’m sorry you are going through a divorce. If you need anything, I’m here for you.” That’s it. They know if they want to talk to you, they will contact you. Other than that, pray.

 

[MaryT777]

No.

Divorce is terrible, but it is not an impediment to being “heavily” involved in the parish, including in retreats.

You are not dealing in facts here. You are dealing in second hand information and speculation.

You don’t know the intimate details of their marriage, you don’t know facts, and you should not presume to know the mind of either party especially stating they are “oblivious” to their commitment and obligations. These are not facts, these are your assumptions and opinions.

It is always possible, if one is a close personal friend, to talk with them about their situation if they are willing to and to encourage them to seek counseling and reconciliation.

But, step back off your high horse first-- you are again assuming the person is “un” reasonable and needs to be reasoned with. Perhaps they need to be listened to and supported instead.

You assume they lack an understanding of the sanctity of marriage. Assuming is not cool.

The fact you haven’t heard about it doesn’t mean there haven’t been any attempts.

If you are friends, and I mean good friends, then perhaps you will have an opportunity to discuss it with them-- in confidence.

And there you go assuming again-- assuming things about the couple AND your fellow parishioners.

I completely agree with you; too many assumptions here.

 

[MaryT777]

“”"The reasons given were that the other spouse mishandled money which seems like a lie from other sources. “”

You dont even believe the one given reason for breakdown of the marriage.

You cannot approach this in any objective way.

Seriously, how would you feel if everyone was gossiping about a given reason for a divorce and claiming it must be a lie.

That is negating the spouse who left, totally negating what that spouse thinks and feels. Its very wrong.
And very cruel.

Sadly to me it sounds like this is the subject of much GOSSIP in the parish which saddens me. I have been through a divorce and unless you have lived in the marriage you have no clue what day to day life was for anyone.

Also, I have found with the two couples I was friends with ( both Catholic couples that were considering divorce )the partners had completely different interpretations of what was wrong with their marriages. They openly shared this with me and requested my thoughts on divorce. I remained friends, told them I would pray for them, and said I hope they spoke with their priest and followed his advice. One couple divorced and one stayed married.

People going through a divorce need support for the difficulty they are enduring. Not condemnation because they do not understand the sacrament of some such perceived issue albeit they are involved heavily in the Church.

Albeit, stop gossiping about this couple.

Mary.

 

[EasterJoy]

Others have advised to fully know the situation before acting which is what I have sought to do. The spouse told me what the clergy told them, which was extremely disheartening. The spouse confided in me with their despair and hopelessness. Their child pleaded with me to help because the spouse’s closest friend in the parish has only encouraged divorce while many in the parish have followed your advice and allowed their friend’s marriage to self-destruct, all in the name of anti-gossip and mind-your-own-business-ism.

Even considering that the spouse and the child both asked what you could do–which they have, and which removes you from being a garden-variety busybody in their minds, at least–you have to proceed full in the knowledge that the spouse who has filed will naturally regard you as a garden-variety busybody. That is just what you ought to expect.

If you take the stand that you have the moral high ground and you are, without knowing both sides of the story, taking it upon yourself to “admonish the sinner,” I think you can count on failing and even immunizing the spouse who is determined to leave against any other intervention by anyone else. Go forward humbly, then, and in prayer.

It is extremely important that the spouse being approached feels as if there is no question about her regard for the sanctity of marriage and no question about whether or not she understands moral law. Do not, do not go there. Instead, encourage her to see that the process of counseling, even though it could seem futile in the beginning, is widely considered a valuable enterprise prior to a divorce, even by those who do eventually go through a divorce. Encourage her to reconsider counseling for her own sake and for the sake of making this process smoother and more charitable no matter how it goes. You really need to sell her on the idea that this expensive (it is) and difficult (it will be) process will still be very much worth the investment.

If she will not listen to you, please part with something along the lines of, “You are the only one who can make this decision. If Sarah (the name I’m giving her child) had not asked I would not have presumed to intervene, but I hope you will reconsider. If divorce is the right course of action, then counseling will help Harry (the name I’m giving her husband) come around to accept it. It will help you set up lines of communication with him that you’ll need because you’ll still be in the same family. I can accept that it is asking a great deal, but based on what people who have divorced say, it will pay off for you, even if you don’t reconcile. If you do–well, I don’t need to tell you how much easier life is five and ten years down the line for the couples that work out their problems. We all hope that you’ll still find that, of course. Even if you don’t, though, most people who try are glad they did. You won’t look in the mirror and have those questions, and neither will Sarah, and you can tell Harry with all honesty that you tried.”

Once you have said your piece, you really need to bite your tongue ever after and say nothing except “how are you doing?” after which you listen and offer only support. (And oh goodness, whatever you do, if they get back together don’t you dare say “I told you so.” That is the kind of thing a busy-body would say!)

 

[holyrood]

I pray I am wrong about everything I wrote but it is based on feedback from the spouses’ grown children, mutual friends, the clergy, and one spouse. I keep hoping there’s more to the story that could help reconciliation but sadly every rock has turned up nothing. I plan on expressing my concern to the other spouse, **I’m hoping more information comes out from our mutual friends **but all I get are blank stares and the pervasive opinion that divorce is natural and acceptable.

Even if we assume the absolute worst of one spouse, how does that justify the other spouse abandoning their marriage when one spouse desperately wants to reconcile? How do we call ourselves Catholic while ignoring our own Catholic beliefs about marriage?

Catholics have the right to receive Holy Communion on the tongue. They do not have the right to put their noses into other people’s marriages, particularly not based on hearsay.

I have to agree with others. There is a LOT of gossip going on here. While I appreciate the concern about marriage and divorce, isn’t this between the couple themselves? Why are you so involved in talking to their children, friends, even the clergy…and only one spouse…about a marriage that involves those two spouses?

When you express your concern, do you think that spouse is obligated to tell you all his (her?) reasons for filing? Are you entitled to know everything that has gone on behind closed doors?

Let me also remind you that you **don’t **know the truth of any of this. I am dealing with an alcoholic/narcissistic family of origin. I married a sociopath who can look you in the eye and lie very convincingly.

Result: ‘Everyone’–that is everyone who has heard anything from my parents or ex-husband–just KNOWS everything that has gone on in my marriage. My children are being heavily influenced and therefore are sure that I somehow ‘imagined’ an awful lot. My sister begged a close friend to ‘talk some sense into me.’ ALL of this is based on lies from XH and an alcoholic family’s willingness to believe those lies and spread them. They then get spread further by all those people ‘concerned’ about my supposedly irrational act of finally filing for divorce.

Am I obligated to defend my decision to every ‘concerned’ person in my parish? In my family? Many people have chosen to disbelieve anything I say anyway. Am I obligated to tell them every single thing that has happened behind closed doors? Do they have the right to sit in judgment on me deciding whether it’s me or XH telling the truth, and if so what gave them that right?

Forgive me if I sound harsh. I don’t mean to. But I hope you can see from my experience what thin ice you are skating on under the guise of ‘concern.’ You call it un-Christian to say stay out of it, but I hope you can see it may be un-Christian to be up to your eyebrows in discussing this couple’s marriage with so many people and taking sides when in truth you weren’t there and don’t know what the truth really is.

ETA: I’m particularly disturbed that ‘the clergy’ is talking to anyone outside the couple about their marriage. That seems to me a serious breach of trust and highly unprofessional and unethical.

 

[MaryT777]

I have to agree with others. There is a LOT of gossip going on here. While I appreciate the concern about marriage and divorce, isn’t this between the couple themselves? Why are you so involved in talking to their children, friends, even the clergy…and only one spouse…about a marriage that involves those two spouses?

When you express your concern, do you think that spouse is obligated to tell you all his (her?) reasons for filing? Are you entitled to know everything that has gone on behind closed doors?

Let me also remind you that you **don’t **know the truth of any of this. I am dealing with an alcoholic/narcissistic family of origin. I married a sociopath who can look you in the eye and lie very convincingly.

Result: ‘Everyone’–that is everyone who has heard anything from my parents or ex-husband–just KNOWS everything that has gone on in my marriage. My children are being heavily influenced and therefore are sure that I somehow ‘imagined’ an awful lot. My sister begged a close friend to ‘talk some sense into me.’ ALL of this is based on lies from XH and an alcoholic family’s willingness to believe those lies and spread them. They then get spread further by all those people ‘concerned’ about my supposedly irrational act of finally filing for divorce.

Am I obligated to defend my decision to every ‘concerned’ person in my parish? In my family? Many people have chosen to disbelieve anything I say anyway. Am I obligated to tell them every single thing that has happened behind closed doors? Do they have the right to sit in judgment on me deciding whether it’s me or XH telling the truth, and if so what gave them that right?

Forgive me if I sound harsh. I don’t mean to. But I hope you can see from my experience what thin ice you are skating on under the guise of ‘concern.’ You call it un-Christian to say stay out of it, but I hope you can see it may be un-Christian to be up to your eyebrows in discussing this couple’s marriage with so many people and taking sides when in truth you weren’t there and don’t know what the truth really is.

ETA: I’m particularly disturbed that ‘the clergy’ is talking to anyone outside the couple about their marriage. That seems to me a serious breach of trust and highly unprofessional and unethical.

Well said.

 

[EasterJoy]

… I am dealing with an alcoholic/narcissistic family of origin. I married a sociopath who can look you in the eye and lie very convincingly.

Result: ‘Everyone’–that is everyone who has heard anything from my parents or ex-husband–just KNOWS everything that has gone on in my marriage. My children are being heavily influenced and therefore are sure that I somehow ‘imagined’ an awful lot. My sister begged a close friend to ‘talk some sense into me.’ ALL of this is based on lies from XH and an alcoholic family’s willingness to believe those lies and spread them. They then get spread further by all those people ‘concerned’ about my supposedly irrational act of finally filing for divorce.

Am I obligated to defend my decision to every ‘concerned’ person in my parish? …

It is very possible to be in a toxic relationship for a long time. The victims of manipulation are typically lead to believe that they are either at fault for what is the relationship is doing to them or not worthy of better treatment or else imagining that the treatment is “not that bad” or that it is not really happening at all, except in their imaginations. People think sociopaths are all obviously headed straight for prison, but that is not true, either. They can learn to manipulate their way around a community of forgiving people, act the part of a praiseworthy person, and even garner the reputation as the person in their relationship who deserves pity.

I have someone close to me in this situation of realizing she was in a relationship with a toxic person, someone with a mental issue he did not want to address as any problem. Her brother talked to her about not getting a divorce because marriage is holy and so on, but in the end her husband was simply not capable of marriage, to put it mildly.

Do you think it is OK to urge the friend to consider counseling provided that it is given that reconciliation may or may not result, but perhaps only communication between the spouses that would help them both to understand their relationship as it moved forward?

I ask this because the person in question did get counseling and did get some help in understanding how to deal with the ex and aspects of their relationship that she had not understood so well. (I’m not so sure her ex was great with this, since the therapist saw through his manipulations and helped the wife to navigate the contact she couldn’t avoid in the way that was the least toxic to her.)

I also grew up and found out that because no one would gossip there were some “upstanding” families that had some very serious toxicity going on. I’m not arguing in favor of gossip. I am only saying that you just don’t know. People can be remarkably good at keeping up a brave front, for reasons both praiseworthy and reasons not so much. You really can never know.

 

[holyrood]

It is very possible to be in a toxic relationship for a long time. The victims of manipulation are typically lead to believe that they are either at fault for what is the relationship is doing to them or not worthy of better treatment or else imagining that the treatment is “not that bad” or that it is not really happening at all, except in their imaginations. People think sociopaths are all obviously headed straight for prison, but that is not true, either. They can learn to manipulate their way around a community of forgiving people, act the part of a praiseworthy person, and even garner the reputation as the person in their relationship who deserves pity.

I have someone close to me in this situation of realizing she was in a relationship with a toxic person, someone with a mental issue he did not want to address as any problem. Her brother talked to her about not getting a divorce because marriage is holy and so on, but in the end her husband was simply not capable of marriage, to put it mildly.

Do you think it is OK to urge the friend to consider counseling provided that it is given that reconciliation may or may not result, but perhaps only communication between the spouses that would help them both to understand their relationship as it moved forward?

I ask this because the person in question did get counseling and did get some help in understanding how to deal with the ex and aspects of their relationship that she had not understood so well. (I’m not so sure her ex was great with this, since the therapist saw through his manipulations and helped the wife to navigate the contact she couldn’t avoid in the way that was the least toxic to her.)

I also grew up and found out that because no one would gossip there were some “upstanding” families that had some very serious toxicity going on. I’m not arguing in favor of gossip. I am only saying that you just don’t know. People can be remarkably good at keeping up a brave front, for reasons both praiseworthy and reasons not so much. You really can never know.

Agreed. The sociopath can often come out looking MORE sane and reasonable than the other spouse. I know of another man in my parish similar to XH–and some specific things he did deliberately to mess with his wife’s mind. He and my XH are both heavily involved in church activities. XH now shows up to mass every Sunday in a 3 piece suit (he spent years visiting other women after work on Sunday morning while claiming he was too tired from to attend mass with us.)

I think asking have you considered counseling *could be *fine. Depending on tone. My concern is, John seems to have talked to everyone in the parish, family, and extended village *except *the spouse who filed. Let’s say it’s a her, just for ease of pronouns. Is he even going to believe anything she says at this point? He’s already been filled in by the whole village. Has she already been helpfully asked this by 300 other people who all got the story from her spouse and the rest of the village? Is she going to feel at this point that everyone has sided against her? Is he in a relationship with her such that she feels he has any business expecting answers from her as to what she’s already done to save the marriage?

Does John know for a fact that there hasn’t been counseling? Is it possible there hasn’t been and it’s because she already figured out counseling only works when both people want it to? *

I can guarantee XH to this day doesn’t care about understanding our relationship. He cares about damage control and revenge. He’s very, VERY nice to me in front of the kids and then tells other people outrageous, bald-faced lies reflecting on my character.

Agreed that sometimes bad situations continue because nobody will speak up. The difference I see between that and gossip is that speaking up means saying something about the evidence you see with your own eyes and clarifying that with the victim if at all possible and the victim herself speaking up and asking for help.

What seems to be going on from John’s description is that one spouse filed for divorce and the entire parish/family/town is talking *about *that one spouse. There is no concrete evidence here–ie, no bruises, no holes in the walls, no witnessing physical confrontations in the yard. There are a lot of people talking about what they think is going on and it doesn’t sound from the descriptions given as if anyone is actually talking directly to the filing spouse, except maybe to side with the other spouse from the get-go.

From what John has said of the situation, I really question whether anyone is going to believe the filing spouse at this point, anyway, because they have all talked so much amongst themselves and are all so sure they know.*

 

[holyrood]

The reasons given were that the other spouse mishandled money which seems like a lie from other sources…Is there any reasoning with such an individual? Is it possible for their understanding of the sanctity of marriage to be elevated in a situation like this, with the possible result of reconciling?

I am not a party to stand aside and mind your own business. In fact it is your business to try as much as is possible and prudent to help them save their marriage. they took vows before God in front of the church, I’ll say it is your business to help them uphold those vows.

But remember prudence is key, listen before you speak. Do not assume you have a handle on it until you’ve talked to both parties.
Try well but try smart.

Ubenedictus, I’m glad you added LISTEN before you speak.

But I want to address the reason given for the divorce. OP, unless you are party to their bank account and finances, you have no way of knowing if it’s a lie. And ‘mishandled finances’ MAY be a very polite way of giving some explanation while trying to avoid smearing the other spouse and exposing all their sins/crimes.

In my case [which by the way received an annulment], there was a great deal going on–lies, gaslighting, other women, AND financial shenanigans. For the sake of the kids, I was willing to stay in this marriage forever. He slept in another room so I was at no risk of getting any diseases. Money issues, however, are impossible to separate and protect against *except *legally.

I myself was being lied to. He was collecting credit cards behind my back and having the bills sent to his work address and even a friend’s house in one case. I was scrambling to work more and more hours to keep up and we were never managing to save although we had nothing to show for it–and meanwhile my children were being left home alone more and more so I could work more hours to keep up with his spending.

Then the truth about the credit cards started to come out. We were so badly in debt that I can only guess there was also gambling going on (and I did find a receipt from a casino once).

The whole house of cards WAS going to fall down. Once that happens, and the mortgage can no longer be paid…the house gets foreclosed on. Now if there’s no money AND our credit is completely shot…where were we going to find a rental at all, let alone one big enough to hold our very large family, compliments of me–the one who filed for divorce–taking my faith quite seriously?

Again, I don’t wish to sound harsh, but I think you have to seriously consider: if it’s your business to get involved in someone else’s marriage and pressure them to remain legally married at all costs…is it also going to be your business to house a now-homeless couple and their 6…7…8…more?..children? Or is that now only their business?

My feeling is, if it’s your business, you better be prepared to walk the whole road.

Those vows, btw…my marriage was annulled because it was justly determined that I made those vows based on the false face he showed me. He did change after marriage and I knew within 18 months that I NEVER EVER would have married him had he treated me the same way before marriage that he did after. Yet I stuck it out for well over 20 years, and I would have continued to even after the lying, gaslighting, and other women. But eventually legal divorce was the ONLY way to protect my children from being homeless. I gave him every possible chance to change his ways and he chose not to.

I hope people will remember these things when they’re tempted to say the spouse who files doesn’t appreciate the seriousness of their vows. After all the abuse and lies and slander to my name by him…there are now those who also think that I, the one who DID take the kids to mass single-handedly for nearly 20 years and taught them their faith, am the one who doesn’t take my faith seriously. Talk about insult added to injury.

AND VERY IMPORTANT: I have told virtually none of this to ANYONE in my parish, and really very few people in real life. The irony is that I have held my tongue about his real misdoings to allow him to have a good relationship with his kids, to avoid forcing them into having to choose which of their parents to regard as a liar, to let him maybe do his changing without living under a cloud, and so on. So I’m sure there are people who see him in church every Sunday in his 3 piece suit and hear my mother (who has chosen to disbelieve what I DID tell her years ago) and think I’m the worst of the worst.

It’s a shocking look at how VERY different the truth can be from what ‘everybody’ thinks.

 

[Xantippe]

Ubenedictus, I’m glad you added LISTEN before you speak.

But I want to address the reason given for the divorce. OP, unless you are party to their bank account and finances, you have no way of knowing if it’s a lie. And ‘mishandled finances’ MAY be a very polite way of giving some explanation while trying to avoid smearing the other spouse and exposing all their sins/crimes.

In my case [which by the way received an annulment], there was a great deal going on–lies, gaslighting, other women, AND financial shenanigans. For the sake of the kids, I was willing to stay in this marriage forever. He slept in another room so I was at no risk of getting any diseases. Money issues, however, are impossible to separate and protect against *except *legally.

I myself was being lied to. He was collecting credit cards behind my back and having the bills sent to his work address and even a friend’s house in one case. I was scrambling to work more and more hours to keep up and we were never managing to save although we had nothing to show for it–and meanwhile my children were being left home alone more and more so I could work more hours to keep up with his spending.

Then the truth about the credit cards started to come out. We were so badly in debt that I can only guess there was also gambling going on (and I did find a receipt from a casino once).

The whole house of cards WAS going to fall down. Once that happens, and the mortgage can no longer be paid…the house gets foreclosed on. Now if there’s no money AND our credit is completely shot…where were we going to find a rental at all, let alone one big enough to hold our very large family, compliments of me–the one who filed for divorce–taking my faith quite seriously?

Again, I don’t wish to sound harsh, but I think you have to seriously consider: if it’s your business to get involved in someone else’s marriage and pressure them to remain legally married at all costs…is it also going to be your business to house a now-homeless couple and their 6…7…8…more?..children? Or is that now only their business?

My feeling is, if it’s your business, you better be prepared to walk the whole road.

Those vows, btw…my marriage was annulled because it was justly determined that I made those vows based on the false face he showed me. He did change after marriage and I knew within 18 months that I NEVER EVER would have married him had he treated me the same way before marriage that he did after. Yet I stuck it out for well over 20 years, and I would have continued to even after the lying, gaslighting, and other women. But eventually legal divorce was the ONLY way to protect my children from being homeless. I gave him every possible chance to change his ways and he chose not to.

I hope people will remember these things when they’re tempted to say the spouse who files doesn’t appreciate the seriousness of their vows. After all the abuse and lies and slander to my name by him…there are now those who also think that I, the one who DID take the kids to mass single-handedly for nearly 20 years and taught them their faith, am the one who doesn’t take my faith seriously. Talk about insult added to injury.

I would add that financial misbehavior is just about the worst thing to lie about in the case of divorce, because financial stuff is so well-documented and so objective.

I also wonder how the OP feels so confident that they would be in a position to know that there wasn’t financial misbehavior going on–a lot of the sort of things that holyrood talks about would be invisible to casual acquaintances.

There can be cases where there are radical changes in financial behavior. One of my older male relatives was the stingiest guy you ever met until Parkinson’s and dementia hit, and he was falling for Y2K gold scams, contributing lavishly to his favorite political party, having a record speed marriage to an elderly freespirit, falling for sweepstakes and “winning” mountains of refurbished junk, etc. Oh yeah, and there was a family business with several adult children employed by the business depending on him not screwing up.

So if the OP ever talks to the divorcing spouse, I might ask (very briefly and tentatively) if there was some possibility of a medical dimension if there has been a change in behavior.

Also (not a doctor), but I have heard that bipolar (which often causes erratic financial decision-making) can get worse with age. (We have a friend with bipolar who was divorced twice, and his behavior hit bottom in his 50s–but up to that point, he’d lived a pretty normal middle class life.)

 

[john1513]

My concern is, John seems to have talked to everyone in the parish, family, and extended village *except *the spouse who filed. Let’s say it’s a her, just for ease of pronouns. Is he even going to believe anything she says at this point? He’s already been filled in by the whole village. Has she already been helpfully asked this by 300 other people who all got the story from her spouse and the rest of the village? Is she going to feel at this point that everyone has sided against her? Is he in a relationship with her such that she feels he has any business expecting answers from her as to what she’s already done to save the marriage?

Does John know for a fact that there hasn’t been counseling? Is it possible there hasn’t been and it’s because she already figured out counseling only works when both people want it to? *

From what John has said of the situation, I really question whether anyone is going to believe the filing spouse at this point, anyway, because they have all talked so much amongst themselves and are all so sure they know.*

Let’s all take a breath and stand down the gossip police. One spouse and a relative approached me to share their story and concerns. I didn’t ask for this info but I’m glad they shared. The spouse told me that they requested counseling and the other wouldn’t go. The spouse told me that the clergy offered no helpful advice, support, or effort in trying to reconcile.

Once finding out I knew, the relative contacted me wanting to share more and volunteered intimate information from their situation over the years that seemed to reasonably explain what I had observed. The relative (not a parishioner) told me that members of the parish had been enabling this separation and strife between the spouses. The relative told me that the rest of the parish community had offered no help to try and reconcile the couple out of fear of upsetting the spouse that left, being labeled as judgmental, and many do not know of the situation.

I wanted to verify, as discretely as possible, what I was told. I contacted TWO close friends of the couple and they verified what they could and did not contradict anything else. From what I know now, almost nothing has been done to help. I’m hoping more has been done but I do not know.

I’m now faced with a dilemma that the commenters here have created:

1. Try to verify facts and be labeled a gossip.
2. Try to help my friends reconcile and be labeled judgmental because I don’t have all the facts.
3. Do nothing, ignore the problem, ignore the Church’s calling to love, marriage, and healing, and be a good understanding, quiet, nonjudgmental Catholic, knowing that marriages fail all the time, there’s nothing we can do about it, and worry about my own life. Surely someone else has tried to help (which I can’t know) and the couple has done absolutely everything they could (which I can’t know and have evidence to the contrary).

It’s like I just walked by witnessed my friend getting mugged at gunpoint. I probably can’t stop the situation, their friends are all standing apparently doing nothing, I just want to know if anyone has called the police (i.e. someone that can help, counselor, clergy, etc.). It sounds like they haven’t, and the one cop that was called was an epic fail.

The biggest wall the family has run into, and now I’m running into, is that divorce culture is apparently embedded in the Church. Anyone who wants to get a divorce is encouraged, anyone who wants to try and prevent a divorce is perceived as evil, uncaring, judgmental, and now apparently a gossip.

 

[EasterJoy]

Agreed. The sociopath can often come out looking MORE sane and reasonable than the other spouse. I know of another man in my parish similar to XH–and some specific things he did deliberately to mess with his wife’s mind. He and my XH are both heavily involved in church activities. XH now shows up to mass every Sunday in a 3 piece suit (he spent years visiting other women after work on Sunday morning while claiming he was too tired from to attend mass with us.)

I think asking have you considered counseling *could be *fine. Depending on tone. My concern is, John seems to have talked to everyone in the parish, family, and extended village *except *the spouse who filed. Let’s say it’s a her, just for ease of pronouns. Is he even going to believe anything she says at this point? He’s already been filled in by the whole village. Has she already been helpfully asked this by 300 other people who all got the story from her spouse and the rest of the village? Is she going to feel at this point that everyone has sided against her? Is he in a relationship with her such that she feels he has any business expecting answers from her as to what she’s already done to save the marriage?

Does John know for a fact that there hasn’t been counseling? Is it possible there hasn’t been and it’s because she already figured out counseling only works when both people want it to? *

I can guarantee XH to this day doesn’t care about understanding our relationship. He cares about damage control and revenge. He’s very, VERY nice to me in front of the kids and then tells other people outrageous, bald-faced lies reflecting on my character.

Agreed that sometimes bad situations continue because nobody will speak up. The difference I see between that and gossip is that speaking up means saying something about the evidence you see with your own eyes and clarifying that with the victim if at all possible and the victim herself speaking up and asking for help.

What seems to be going on from John’s description is that one spouse filed for divorce and the entire parish/family/town is talking *about **that one spouse. There is no concrete evidence here–ie, no bruises, no holes in the walls, no witnessing physical confrontations in the yard. There are a lot of people talking about what they think is going on and it doesn’t sound from the descriptions given as if anyone is actually talking directly to the filing spouse, except maybe to side with the other spouse from the get-go.

From what John has said of the situation, I really question whether anyone is going to believe the filing spouse at this point, anyway, because they have all talked so much amongst themselves and are all so sure they know.

Married for that long and “mishandling” money sounds unfortunately like a long-standing deception involving the finances. I know of sad cases, and the reason divorce is morally permissible is that the wayward spouse otherwise has the power to impoverish the other spouse for life. Sometimes, there is a real urgency to filing for legal separation of finances.

 

[john1513]

Ubenedictus, I’m glad you added LISTEN before you speak.

But I want to address the reason given for the divorce. OP, unless you are party to their bank account and finances, you have no way of knowing if it’s a lie. And ‘mishandled finances’ MAY be a very polite way of giving some explanation while trying to avoid smearing the other spouse and exposing all their sins/crimes.

In my case [which by the way received an annulment], there was a great deal going on–lies, gaslighting, other women, AND financial shenanigans. For the sake of the kids, I was willing to stay in this marriage forever. He slept in another room so I was at no risk of getting any diseases. Money issues, however, are impossible to separate and protect against *except *legally.

I myself was being lied to. He was collecting credit cards behind my back and having the bills sent to his work address and even a friend’s house in one case. I was scrambling to work more and more hours to keep up and we were never managing to save although we had nothing to show for it–and meanwhile my children were being left home alone more and more so I could work more hours to keep up with his spending.

Then the truth about the credit cards started to come out. We were so badly in debt that I can only guess there was also gambling going on (and I did find a receipt from a casino once).

The whole house of cards WAS going to fall down. Once that happens, and the mortgage can no longer be paid…the house gets foreclosed on. Now if there’s no money AND our credit is completely shot…where were we going to find a rental at all, let alone one big enough to hold our very large family, compliments of me–the one who filed for divorce–taking my faith quite seriously?

Again, I don’t wish to sound harsh, but I think you have to seriously consider: if it’s your business to get involved in someone else’s marriage and pressure them to remain legally married at all costs…is it also going to be your business to house a now-homeless couple and their 6…7…8…more?..children? Or is that now only their business?

My feeling is, if it’s your business, you better be prepared to walk the whole road.

Those vows, btw…my marriage was annulled because it was justly determined that I made those vows based on the false face he showed me. He did change after marriage and I knew within 18 months that I NEVER EVER would have married him had he treated me the same way before marriage that he did after. Yet I stuck it out for well over 20 years, and I would have continued to even after the lying, gaslighting, and other women. But eventually legal divorce was the ONLY way to protect my children from being homeless. I gave him every possible chance to change his ways and he chose not to.

I hope people will remember these things when they’re tempted to say the spouse who files doesn’t appreciate the seriousness of their vows. After all the abuse and lies and slander to my name by him…there are now those who also think that I, the one who DID take the kids to mass single-handedly for nearly 20 years and taught them their faith, am the one who doesn’t take my faith seriously. Talk about insult added to injury.

AND VERY IMPORTANT: I have told virtually none of this to ANYONE in my parish, and really very few people in real life. The irony is that I have held my tongue about his real misdoings to allow him to have a good relationship with his kids, to avoid forcing them into having to choose which of their parents to regard as a liar, to let him maybe do his changing without living under a cloud, and so on. So I’m sure there are people who see him in church every Sunday in his 3 piece suit and hear my mother (who has chosen to disbelieve what I DID tell her years ago) and think I’m the worst of the worst.

It’s a shocking look at how VERY different the truth can be from what ‘everybody’ thinks.

Even if all your assumptions are correct, how is divorce preferable to trying financial counseling?! A divorce can lead to an irresponsible spouse taking half of the responsible spouse’s income.

 

[john1513]

Married for that long and “mishandling” money sounds unfortunately like a long-standing deception involving the finances. I know of sad cases, and the reason divorce is morally permissible is that the wayward spouse otherwise has the power to impoverish the other spouse for life. Sometimes, there is a real urgency to filing for legal separation of finances.

The spouse that left has no income.

 

[john1513]

Despite the plethora of veiled accusations and judgments of my character (not a surprise from this forum), a few of you have provided very helpful response. In order to assure some that I won’t commit the unforgivable sins of gossip and judgement, here is my current plan and actions:

1. A closer friend and neutral party offered to talk to the leaving spouse in private to listen, offer support, and encourage counseling for healing.
2. If that doesn’t happen I will write a letter expressing my love and admiration for the leaving spouse, recommend counseling with their spouse as an opportunity for healing even if they go through with the divorce, and offer any help or listening I can.
3. To the spouse who shared with me, I recommended a trusted, respected, and neutral adviser and clergyman as a source of spiritual direction and possible reconciliation. I will remain in regular contact with them for encouragement.

Look at how reasonable a nosy and judgmental gossip can be