Is there anyone in Hell?

[amarischuk]

if we put our our faith, hope and charity into praying for all those who have died, or are dying now, or will ever die (that must cover it), then God who hears from His Eternal stance will have our prayer before Him when He meets each and every soul, even those deserving of condemnation and those hell bent on rejecting Him.

Joanna, that is a beautiful thought and has much theological backing; however, the theological support for that died out gradually over the middle ages as salvation became a personal thing (especially with the advent of individual auriccular confessions and the abandoning of the Roman penance system).

Now unfortunately it is Catholic teaching that it is not the prayers of the righteous but rather the ‘state of the soul’ at death which determines ones direction. According to modern conservative Catholic teaching all the prayers in the world will not change the direction of someone who died in mortal sin. If you really want to see this come around though, I would suggest a return to the spirit of the communal nature of the Church found in the Middle Ages and not the strictly individualistic notions which grew out of the rise of the guilds, renaissance and eventually lead to the reformation. But then the Church would have to abandon the misguided development of mortal sin, something I do not foresee…in the near future.

i don’t know if you’ve done it deliberately, or if you really so completely misunderstood what i posted, but you’ve taken what i said entirely sideways from the way it was meant.

I am sorry, I was trying to, in Chestertonian fashion, turn it on its head. The first time I heard that expression was at a speech Cardinal Arinze gave at Westminster monastery in Mission BC, Canada.

But thank you for your personal information; however, (unsurprisingly I am sure to you) I disagree with your progression.

If you can appeal to your life, I should have the right. I was throughout university firmly conservative. My spiritual advisor was even Opus Dei. Then I went to a Catholic seminary ( I just got out in May) and undertook some serious study.

I wasn’t reading the progressive or heretical historians, philosophers and theologians like Rahner, Schillibeeckx, Congar, de Lubac, de Chardin, Boadt and Chenu that illicited a change.

It was reading or studying the conservatives like Grisez, JP II, Weigle, Maritain and Christopher West and the CCC and the bible that caused it.

I found that a lot of these writers rely on mythological events like the six day creation and the garden episode to make their points. That and the anthropomorphisms found in the bible and the legalism of Catholic (as opposed to the Orthodox and even eastern right Catholics) turned me off the conservative wing.

I came to see it as an evolution, my faith has evolved from the infantile blind acceptance to a questioning maturity much like Abraham’s infantile blind obedience to sacrifice Isaac as opposed to Christ who accepted death in our place.

Adam

 

[Erich]

jeffreedy789:

…in an odd little verse in the epistles, we are told that Jesus ‘preached the gospel to those in chains, who rebelled long ago in the times of noah and the flood’.

this, to me, sounds a heck of a lot like an after death second chance. whether or not we will get one, we who have lived ‘this side of the cross’ is, of course, debatable. but i repeat that the Bible nor the church teach that we won’t have a possible ‘second chance’…

I came to this thread a bit late and didn’t see anyone pick up on this. According to the CCC (#637), “in his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven’s gates for the just who had gone before him.”

#633 is a longer paragraph, but it’s first and last sentences are, “Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” – Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek – because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God…Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.”

What caught my eye almost right away are the words I’ve emboldened above. Oh, yes… no possibility for a second chance, either.

So my answer to the question posed by this thread (“Is there anyone in Hell?”) has to be “yes” (and I’d also have to conclude, based on the Church’s teaching that Jesus did not descend into hell to destroy the hell of damnation, that hell is eternal).

 

[amarischuk]

“Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” – Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek – because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God…Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.”

Here is another inconsistency in conservative Catholic teaching. Given that according to Thomism the body is the differentiating agent, not the form; and it is the body which is located in space and time (despite someone’s earlier claim that hell is located inside the earth, can the heat of the earth cause pain to the immaterial soul?) a problem arises of the just waiting in hell for Jesus.

What a load, if the souls of the just who died before Jesus came are outside of space and time why are they waiting around?

Not to mention as you pointed out that the just weren’t waiting in limbo, but actually in hell (though their stay was just temporary).

The same problem arrises with the particular and the general judgement. I got in an argument at an Opus Dei retreat with the priest over the general judgement when you are judged again for the effects of yuor sins through time…that doesn’t make any sense if the soul is outside of space and TIME. But many Catholic teachings, such as the irreversable decision of the fallen angels and the inability to repent after death demand that the soul is outside of time.

Adam

 

[MGEISING]

Plenty … it is said (by our Holy MOther) that more people go to hell daily, than snowflakes fall in a storm.

 

[RobedWithLight]

Jim ov Cov:

If we are truly free; if God is truly loving; then Hell must exist, and on the balance of probabilities, Hell is bursting at the seams. To argue that the Church has never defined that souls go to Hell is misleading. The Church has never defined that God exists, but we can’t therefore conclude that it’s possible that God doesn’t exist.

Hell exists because it is a choice [the other heaven] made available by virtue of man’s free will. Man decides his actions, and makes his choices.

Gerry

 

[xenia_melissa]

Wow, do I even dare to post something. I am a new convert, that for most her life has believed that heaven and hell did not exist. How you may ask? Well, my mother is a Jehovah’s witness, she was baptized a year ago and has been involved in the religion since I was a child. I was never baptized into the religion and I really haven’t been involved in it since I was 16, I am now 23. I grew up with there “philosophies,” they believe that there is no hell or heaven. They believe that the soul “sleeps” when a person dies until Judgment Day when the soul will awaken again. They believe that while you are here on earth, you can either make this place your heaven or your hell. This means that every sin you commit while you are alive, you pay for it while you are alive. So can you imagine how I had to adjust my mind to now believe in heaven and in hell. I thank God that for the most part of my life I have been a God fearing person, who has only wanted to serve him correctly. I was never concerned in joining a religion just because I wanted to save my soul, I have always wanted to serve him simply because I love him. So no I never lived a crazy life and did as I pleased why? because I have always known that their are commandments and one must follow them. Now that I have knowledge of these places it doesn’t really change how I live my life. I do look at my life differently because I am now a catholic and this just simply means that I can serve God correctly.
I do believe that hell exist and also that purgatory exist. I have read all the post on here and I can’t say who right and who is wrong, but I can say that God is immensely merciful, so merciful that it is beyond our understanding. Hell is to be in the absence of our lord’s presences for eternity, that is the most painful thing in the world. No one on here can make any judgments, we leave that Job to our creator. Yes, I do believe that some people will go to hell but I believe that the numbers are very low, God doesn’t give up on us, he gives us many chances to make up for our mistakes, God loves us so much, that he created purgatory or have you guys forgotten about that place. I know what some of you are thinking what do I know about anything when I am in the process of converting. Well, to make a long story short my boyfriend attend St.Loyola university where he majored in theology and studied apologetics, he has converted many including me and has debated other denominations. He has taught me a lot and continues to do so, not to mention the millions of books he has regarding subjects like this one. I believe a person has to live their life correctly for their love of God and not for the fear of hell because that just means you are concerned with saving your soul.
Lets pray for each other so that we are made stronger and follow that path of our lord Christ.
melissa

 

[ISABUS]

Hello Adam et al ~

I’m online for a brief moment. Library. As a seasoned poet and a Catholic for 40+ years, I’ve realized internet newsgroups aren’t really my cup of tea. Too much bickering and arguments wear on my psyche. Several comments to your threads then poof I’m out into the “real” world of autumn leaves and brisk air.

All the book knowledge about God doesn’t bring nor keep a person close to God. Whatever you think you know about God will miss the mark unless you have taken the time to establish a personal relationship with Christ. Time alone. Many private talks and peaceful walks in nature. Opening your mind to Christ in the solitude of your being and desiring the company of Christ, a friend if you allow him to be. Within this friendship lies the gift of wonder and pleasure that God bestows upon an individual.

God is LOVE. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are ‘pure’ LOVE. If any person removes love from their life, he/she removes “self” from God by choice. Simple truth. Easy to remember and a simple truth to live by. God likes simple things. In God’s mind we are children. Yes. True. Also, this is not about ‘free will’, it is about ‘choice’. When you fully place your TRUST in God, if you do decide to surrender to the power of “pure” love that flows from God into you, then, only then can you see and understand the light of God’s wisdom which can move mankind into every act of kindness toward his fellowman. Detach yourself from God and the level of kindness becomes no more than a self centered idea of what a human being thinks rather than what a spiritual being knows.

Much talk or manmade knowledge doesn’t impress God. God’s desire is that you open your heart and communicate with Christ one on one.

One last comment ~ God has the power to touch every soul gently and enlighten their mind if he deems it necessary. If we touch a soul and bring it joy, we know God is alive within us at that moment and the blessings begin to unfold, multiply, grow and the earth becomes a sacred abode for all to enjoy.

May each of us hear those heavenly sounds that whisper softly from the sweet heart of Jesus.

Wishing everyone a holiday season filled with Love, Peace, and Joy ~

Mary also known by God as Isabus

 

[Erich]

amarischuk:

…despite someone’s earlier claim that hell is located inside the earth…

Actually, I believe that you were the first poster on this thread to make this claim (via a quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia, back in post #39).

As to whether “the heat of the earth can cause pain to the immaterial soul,” from the same article:

But, if our soul is so joined to the body as to be keenly sensitive to the pain of fire, why should the omnipotent God be unable to bind even pure spirits to some material substance in such a manner that they suffer a torment more or less similar to the pain of fire which the soul can feel on earth?

As for why a general judgement in addition to a particular judgement, from newadvent.org/cathen/08552a.htm

Those who depart this life sometimes leave behind them children who imitate the conduct of their parents, descendants, followers; and others who adhere to and advocate the example, the language, the conduct of those on whom they depend, and whose example they follow; and as the good or bad influence or example, affecting as it does the conduct of many, is to terminate only with this world; justice demands that, in order to form a proper estimate of the good or bad actions of all, a general judgment should take place.

 

[ahimsaman72]

I have a similar thread going on the subject of hell and everlasting punishment in the apologetic forum also. if anyone would care to join there also. This thread looks very good. I’ll try to post here myself.

 

[jeffreedy789]

'Protons have mass? I didn’t even know they were Catholic! ’

it’s the electrons you have to watch out for… with their licentious ‘shared orbits’…

 

[amarischuk]

I wrote

the general judgement when you are judged again for the effects of yuor sins through time…that doesn’t make any sense if the soul is outside of space and TIME.

to which Erich replies:

Those who depart this life sometimes leave behind them children who imitate the conduct of their parents, descendants, followers; and others who adhere to and advocate the example, the language, the conduct of those on whom they depend, and whose example they follow; and as the good or bad influence or example, affecting as it does the conduct of many, is to terminate only with this world; justice demands that, in order to form a proper estimate of the good or bad actions of all, a general judgment should take place.

newadvent.org/cathen/08552a.htm

Um, you just reitterated the problem. According to Catholic teaching the soul is outside of time when it departs from the body. Hence there is no need to wait and see what will happen. That wait is pure superstition and a juvenile view of heaven, hell and eternity.

ISABUS, why has it been the consistent policy of conservative Catholics to keep telling me that I must abandon my knowledge and just have faith…the same Catholic who also tell the protestant that their faith doesn’t make sense. I would suggest that the those Catholics remove the beam in their eyes.

As for my romance of faith, I assure you I am quite the avid naturalist. Unfortunately here in Taiwan I am unable to get out into the mountains too often (but I do manage), but back home in Canada I am an avid sailor, hiker, camper and scuba diver. And all this talk about personal relationships make Catholicism just as I feared, just like the protestants. The very notion is a Reformation construct foreign to the early church and foreign to medieval theology (though developign through the middle ages with the rise of the urban classes and individualism).

But the biggest problem is that this personalism is leading to the demise of natural theology. All these arguements that knowledge is vain without faith only make it so that all knowledge is merely opinion. And how can God condemn people to an eternity of punishment merely for the actions they chose based on opinion? Once again, to resolve this problem Catholicism strays disgustingly close to the anthropomorphic demon-God of Calvinism.

I remember not too many years ago when I shuddered at the thought that some people called themselves Catholics yet didn’t agree with Humani Vitae or Papal Infallibility. Truth be told, the future of the church lies there, if we can trust God’s word that he won’t abandon the Church to a fate worse than death, rabid anti-scientific, anti-intellectual fundamentalism.

Adam

 

[Carl]

*Last night at RCIA one of the TEAM leaders stated that she didn’t believe anyone was in Hell because God is merciful. I stated that she sure is an optimist. What is the teaching of the Church on this? *

The teaching of the Church has to be the same as the teaching of Jesus:

“And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25:46

Sounds like one of your team leaders needs to go back to Bible school.

 

[Calbreese]

Good gosh almighty, the food there must be all very welldone. The A/C bill must be a real scorcher. Plus there is a lot of pitch they fork around. Picture a very dry sauna…on the sun. That reminds me, time to whip out the Rosary…IHS Daryl

 

[Erich]

amarischuk:

Um, you just reitterated the problem. According to Catholic teaching the soul is outside of time when it departs from the body. Hence there is no need to wait and see what will happen.

But, the body is not outside of time. I just started reading the Catholic Encyclopedia articles on the mind, the soul, and the faculties of the soul when it occurred to me… one’s soul is reunited with one’s (glorified) body on the last day. So maybe the purpose of the general judgement is so that the “rest of the body” can see for itself the effects through time of what one’s actions were?

Just my random thought… I’m new at this philosophy stuff, and haven’t yet read through the last 2000 years or so of “prereqs.” I’m also certainly open to enlightenment; to paraphrase another poster’s tag line, “I’ve been wrong before, I’ll likely be wrong again.”

 

[nlu]

Can anybody provide a sound rational argument that explains how God, who is perfectly good, can bring into being a soul who, by definition, never asked to be born, knowing that it would suffer everlasting pain for a temporal crime ?

It has been argued that non-being or non-existance is worse than hell but that does not makes sense not least because of what Our Lord says about such an endangered soul - that it would have been better that it had never been born at all.

It has been further argued that this is a mystery, e,g like the Trinity, and has to be just accepted in faith. This also does not seem correct since we are taught that faith does not contradict reason even though becuause of our finite intelligence we cannot understand the details.

In the case of the Trinity this seems reasonable but in the case of the Doctrine of Hell it appears to contradict that God is perfectly good and offends conscience i.e its not a matter of lack of intellect but rather a test of conscience and goodness.

Can anyone provide a rational argument - because it touches on right and wrong it must be rational- to support the doctrine without falling back on pure faith and mystery which is inappropriate in matters pertaining to right/wrong and evil/good.

nlu

 

[space_ghost]

I will be ok in not knowing, and hope to never find out personally

 

[ahimsaman72]

nlu:

Can anybody provide a sound rational argument that explains how God, who is perfectly good, can bring into being a soul who, by definition, never asked to be born, knowing that it would suffer everlasting pain for a temporal crime ?

It has been argued that non-being or non-existance is worse than hell but that does not makes sense not least because of what Our Lord says about such an endangered soul - that it would have been better that it had never been born at all.

It has been further argued that this is a mystery, e,g like the Trinity, and has to be just accepted in faith. This also does not seem correct since we are taught that faith does not contradict reason even though becuause of our finite intelligence we cannot understand the details.

In the case of the Trinity this seems reasonable but in the case of the Doctrine of Hell it appears to contradict that God is perfectly good and offends conscience i.e its not a matter of lack of intellect but rather a test of conscience and goodness.

Can anyone provide a rational argument - because it touches on right and wrong it must be rational- to support the doctrine without falling back on pure faith and mystery which is inappropriate in matters pertaining to right/wrong and evil/good.

nlu

Peace, friend. I just got finished with my thread, “hell and everlasting punishment” where I asked similar questions. I never really got a rational answer. Most responses ended up saying - the church says it’s true - so it is. I provided some work on the word “hell” and how it is used in the Bible.

I’m with you.

God will reconcile all people to Himself. His punishments and correction are limited to periods of time - not endless. Some are judged solely in this life and others have to undergo further judgement after death. God is just.

 

[amarischuk]

nlu, don’t expect a rational defense here. I simply keep getting told that I using my human reason against God’s wisdom. And by God’s wisdom they mean the collection of Jewish books ranging from 5-2 thousand years ago.

At a certain point apologetics simply falls apart. It cannot answer the problems raised and the distinction between apologetics and scholarship is with scholarship thier is a non-partisan pursuit of truth while with apologetics (as the name implies) their is merely a defence of certain propositions without any real evaluation of the proposition itself.

nlu, please don’t let this difficulty destroy your faith though. What has happened all too often is that bright people asking all the right questions get shunted out of the Church or choose to leave, abandoning the Church to the fundamentalist minority. There is a real threat of the Church coming under the grip of American style fundamentalism. Let us not abandon her in her moment of need. Remember that the magesterium is not the church! Read up on Pierre Teilhard de Chardin’s ecclesiology, or Ignace Lepp’s interpertation of Teilhard.

And ahimsaman, I studied at a seminary in Iowa (Dubuque) for a year not long ago. Iowa has a certain desolate beauty. From my experience, nothing bad comes from Iowa except those little lady-bugs.

Adam