Is there anything more important to a Christian than personal salvation?

[crowonsnow]

Is there anything more important to a Christian than personal salvation?

That’s the question.

I’m particularly interested to hear from Christians, and if a mod thinks this is better suited to another forum, please let me know and I will comply. Anyone is welcome to respond and I am interested in hearing from everyone.

The topic got started in this thread . But it has developed into a topic of its own.

Thanks!

 

[Mijoy2]

Is there anything more important to a Christian than personal salvation?

That’s the question.

I’m particularly interested to hear from Christians, and if a mod thinks this is better suited to another forum, please let me know and I will comply. Anyone is welcome to respond and I am interested in hearing from everyone.

The topic got started in this thread . But it has developed into a topic of its own.

Thanks!

Hi Crowonsnow,

You are relatively new to the forums I see, welcome!

Your question is a very easy one for me answer. There is no doubt what the most important issue is to me. I have two daughters and thier salvation is more important to me then anything else. Nothing comes close.

I haven’t always felt this way. Before coming into my faith about 5 years ago now, I never gave any thought to thier salvation. At the time the most important thing to me was thier happiness. Now, there happiness is a very distant second. Off the map with respect to thier eternal life.

In order to understand my answer you, or course, have to buy into the premise of which it comes. Let’s try to understand this from what is probably a strange viewpoint. Let’s assume there is an eternall life and this eternal life is either wonderful or horrendous. Given that this life is infinatly small with respect to eternity, how they fare in this life is infinatly insignificant with how they fare in the next.

I used to worry greatly about how they did in school, how thier friends treated them, how they may fare in the working world once thier education is over. Of course these issues are still of great importance to me. But they are of minimal importance to how I now worry about thier walk with God. I’d gladly pay a huge earthly price for a guarantee of thier salvation. But I cannot be guaranteed, so I pray and pray and pray some more. Much much more about thier faith, then the other things I mentioned.

 

[ateista]

I understand your point of view. I have some questions, however.

Let’s assume there is an eternall life and this eternal life is either wonderful or horrendous. Given that this life is infinatly small with respect to eternity, how they fare in this life is infinatly insignificant with how they fare in the next.

I used to worry greatly about how they did in school, how thier friends treated them, how they may fare in the working world once thier education is over. Of course these issues are still of great importance to me. But they are of minimal importance to how I now worry about thier walk with God.

If this life is infinitely insignificant, then why worry about it at all? What is the importance of this existence? Why do you care if they are happy or miserable, healthy or in pain, if their life is filled with joy or sorrow - if this existence is of no importance whatsoever? Because that is what is implied by saying that this life is infinitely insignificant.

If you care, then this existence is not infinitely insignificant, just of lesser importance.

I’d gladly pay a huge earthly price for a guarantee of thier salvation.

And the second question: you said: Earthly price. But what you also said that this existence is insignificant - so whatever huge price you would pay would be also insignificant, would it not?

What about a real, significant price? Would you be willing to spend the whole eternity in hell, just to assure their salvation? Because according to what you said, that is the **only real price **to pay?

 

[Mijoy2]

I understand your point of view. I have some questions, however.

If this life is infinitely insignificant, then why worry about it at all? What is the importance of this existence? Why do you care if they are happy or miserable, healthy or in pain, if their life is filled with joy or sorrow - if this existence is of no importance whatsoever? Because that is what is implied by saying that this life is infinitely insignificant.

If you care, then this existence is not infinitely insignificant, just of lesser importance.

And the second question: you said: Earthly price. But what you also said that this existence is insignificant - so whatever huge price you would pay would be also insignificant, would it not?

What about a real, significant price? Would you be willing to spend the whole eternity in hell, just to assure their salvation? Because according to what you said, that is the **only real price **to pay?

I’ll try to answer your questions, I don’t know h ow to put quotes in quotes so bare with me please.

Your 1st question you answered yourself when you said:
“just of lesser importance” If I did not say, “infinitely insignificant with respect to eternal life” I meant to. I value this life for my children tremendously. It’s only with respect to eternity is it of infinately less insignificance. Which is not the same as saying insignificant. Reminds me of my calculus days when we studied limits.

Your 2nd question: The question of whether I would be willing to pay a price of eternal damnation to guarantee thier salvation is certtainly a question I am quite pleased God would never ask of me and I don’t have to ponder an answer.

It reminds me of the very unfair question one might ask a parant with two children. If a madman forced you to chose which one lived or which one died who would you chose. This is a question no parent should ever be asked.

By the way I did say “earthly price”, and yes, I cannot conceive of anything I wouldn’t do (that was of God’s will) that would guarentee thier salvation. I do believe individuals have suffered greatly and willingly for the salvation of others. It provides me hope.

Hope this helped

 

[Cristiano]

Is there anything more important to a Christian than personal salvation?

That’s the question.

I’m particularly interested to hear from Christians, and if a mod thinks this is better suited to another forum, please let me know and I will comply. Anyone is welcome to respond and I am interested in hearing from everyone.

The topic got started in this thread . But it has developed into a topic of its own.

Thanks!

Yes there is something more important and that is to do God’s will.
It is not up to us to decide if we are going to be saved because no matter what we do we cannot guarantee (force God to) our salvation. We simply take his word that if we have faith in him and behave properly we should be saved.
Now if you look at the behaviors that we need to demonstrate to show that we follow Christ (proof of faith) you will see that they call us to love our brothers as we love God because they are created in His image.
For Catholics there cannot be an individual salvation concept, that is an incorrect statement.

 

[ateista]

Your 1st question you answered yourself when you said: “just of lesser importance” If I did not say, “infinitely insignificant with respect to eternal life” I meant to. I value this life for my children tremendously. It’s only with respect to eternity is it of infinately less insignificance. Which is not the same as saying insignificant. Reminds me of my calculus days when we studied limits.

If it reminds you of calculus, then remember: if the limit is zero… it is zero. In my understanding, if something is infinitely insignificant in respect to something, then it is totally insignificant in that relationship. True, it could be significant in another relation, but here this other relation itself is insignificant, is it not?

Your 2nd question: The question of whether I would be willing to pay a price of eternal damnation to guarantee thier salvation is certtainly a question I am quite pleased God would never ask of me and I don’t have to ponder an answer.

It is just a hypothetical question. And if I recall correctly, God did ask Abraham to sacrifice Isaac… so you can never know! Of course I do not insist to get an answer, I just wondered what your answer might be.

It reminds me of the very unfair question one might ask a parant with two children. If a madman forced you to chose which one lived or which one died who would you chose. This is a question no parent should ever be asked.

I agree with this, but that is not what I asked. This analogy would be correct, if I asked: “if only one of your children could be saved, and the decision would rest on your shoulders, which one would you choose?”. That would be an intolerable dilemma.

I am also certain that you would never jeopardize the salvation of your children to assure your own, but again, that is not what I asked.

It is sheer curiosity on my part, and please feel free to disregard it, but I was interested, to what distance would you go to “assure” your children’s salvation as compared to yours.

Because that is the true measure of your commitment.

Atheist parents would (and did) sacrifice their own life to save their childen - which is the only life as far as they are concerned. They are willing to pay the ultimate price. As I said, don’t answer, if you don’t want to. Just ponder it…

 

[ateista]

The time for editing has elapsed, so let me add a few more remarks.

Suppose the devil (in whose existence you believe, though I don’t) would offer your children some terrible temptation, which would result in committing a mortal sin. Suppose you would know that they succumb to it, after all the devil can be very devious - according to what you believe. Suppose you also know that they would die and so they would die in the status of an unrepented mortal sin, and according to the RCC teachings that is a surefire way to hell. The only way you could prevent it would be to commit a mortal sin of your own - die in the attempt and go to hell yourself as a consequence.

I am very sure that you would jump in at the spur of the moment to save your children’s salvation and disregard your own. That is what every good parent does. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind.

But the spur of the moment is not here. Here and now you can just contemplate a hypothetical scenario, which does not include God putting you to a test.

Just contemplate it. How far would you be willing to go to help the salvation of your children? How strong is your commitment? Can it pass the ultimate test?

 

[Mijoy2]

I’m not sure where you are trying to go with this. They hypotheticals you mention, to me, are incomparable. The athiest giving up his/her life to spare anothers is in my opinion a noble and good thing.

A person giving up thier life to spare anothers eternal life is not an option we have. To ponder a hypothetical that degrades Gods’ good is not a place I’d like to venture. In my mind, I’d do anything for my children as far as your hypotheticals can venture.

I once heard (don’t recall where but it resonated with me) that the definition of “Love” means “to wish heaven for”. To do anything else falls far short.

I didn’t always feel this way. Now, nothing else is important. As Father Mitch Pacwa says (said with much admiration for Fr Mitch), “that’s my story and I’m stick’n to it”

 

[ateista]

I’m not sure where you are trying to go with this.

I have no agenda. The OP asked if the most important thing for a believer is their own personal salvation. You said that your children’s salvation is more important than your own. I certainly believe you. It is something that good parent would say. But that is just words. What does the phrase “more important” mean here?

They hypotheticals you mention, to me, are incomparable. The athiest giving up his/her life to spare anothers is in my opinion a noble and good thing.

I wonder why are they incomparable? In both cases the person is asked to make the ultimate sacrifice. For an atheist it is this life, for the believer it is the afterlife. The atheist passes the test.

A person giving up thier life to spare anothers eternal life is not an option we have. To ponder a hypothetical that degrades Gods’ good is not a place I’d like to venture. In my mind, I’d do anything for my children as far as your hypotheticals can venture.

This is interesting. Do you stipulate that God would interfere on your behalf if the devil would try to trap you in the scenario I outlined in the previous post? But of course God (allegedly) respects our free will, and therefore he does not interfere if someone makes a bad choice, and jeopardizes his salvation - for any reason whatsoever. In the hypothetical case the reason would not be frivolous; it be most noble.

I know this is a tough call. Why does God not interfere for others?

 

[Cristiano]

The time for editing has elapsed, so let me add a few more remarks.

Suppose the devil (in whose existence you believe, though I don’t) would offer your children some terrible temptation, which would result in committing a mortal sin. Suppose you would know that they succumb to it, after all the devil can be very devious - according to what you believe. Suppose you also know that they would die and so they would die in the status of an unrepented mortal sin, and according to the RCC teachings that is a surefire way to hell. The only way you could prevent it would be to commit a mortal sin of your own - die in the attempt and go to hell yourself as a consequence.

I am very sure that you would jump in at the spur of the moment to save your children’s salvation and disregard your own. That is what every good parent does. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind.

But the spur of the moment is not here. Here and now you can just contemplate a hypothetical scenario, which does not include God putting you to a test.

Just contemplate it. How far would you be willing to go to help the salvation of your children? How strong is your commitment? Can it pass the ultimate test?

Your scenario shows a lack of understanding of mortal sin, salvation and free will from a Catholic point of view. The devil cannot test you without God’s permission. You cannot ensure anyone salvation or damnation even your own, only God decides that. Your statements are in contradiction and define an impossible scenario. It is more or less like saying lets assume that A=B and then we also assume that A=not B.

 

[Pug]

Is there anything more important to a Christian than personal salvation?

Important how? Do you mean somehow in my actions, in their motivations or ends?

At my center, I strive to do what is right. I try to live a just, true, integral life, according to what I am, according to reality. I’m not all that great at this endeavor. Often habit controls what I do, or curiosity. Most of my speaking mannerisms and social behaviors are habit. When I am conscious of choosing things, apparently it is because I see it as good. I don’t eat dirt; I eat broccoli. I don’t kill people; I form friendships.

I am Christian, so I believe God to be real. I do not isolate this from my decision making process. I try to include reality in my decision making. Your question sounds a different note in my ear, though, almost like you are asking if I would deliberately reject the true/good/just actions if it could secure salvation for me. This question, if it is what you are asking, violates my premises. Rejecting the good is not a means to secure communion and life with the good.

 

[ateista]

Your scenario shows a lack of understanding of mortal sin, salvation and free will from a Catholic point of view. The devil cannot test you without God’s permission.

Are you serious? So the devil has no freedom of action? Every alleged temptation is done with God’s permission? Effectively the devil does God’s “dirty work” for him?

You cannot ensure anyone salvation or damnation even your own, only God decides that. Your statements are in contradiction and define an impossible scenario. It is more or less like saying lets assume that A=B and then we also assume that A=not B.

I think you misunderstood the nature of the dilemma. Nowhere have I said that the parent could “ensure” the child’s salvation. What he could do is to prevent the child from committing a mortal sin. There is nothing impossible or farfetched about this assumption.

On the point of “ensuring” one’s own damnation, what you say seems to be contradicted by innumerable posts and quotations from the cathecism. I read / heard many times that an unrepented mortal sin will lead to damnation.

 

[mercygate]

Short answer but very deep; do not take it at face value.

No, nothing is more important to a Christian than his own salvation.

Tending to the salvation of one’s own soul is the greatest act of charity any Christian can undertake. Think about it. If every Christian truly fulfilled his vocation in Christ, the whole world would be saved.

 

[crowonsnow]

Hi Crowonsnow,

You are relatively new to the forums I see, welcome!

Your question is a very easy one for me answer. There is no doubt what the most important issue is to me. I have two daughters and thier salvation is more important to me then anything else. Nothing comes close.

Thanks for the welcome.

Never got that response before. That’s kinda like what your savior did, nothing in it for him except the satisfaction of having improved the lot of someone else. It’s identical to how I feel about my own kids except I leave out the supernatural stuff.

 

[AgnosTheist]

I’d gladly pay a huge earthly price for a guarantee of thier salvation.

if you daughters are going to hell and you are going to heaven, and its possible to substitute your soul for theirs (switch places with them permanently)- would you do it?

 

[davidv]

if you daughters are going to hell and you are going to heaven, and its possible to substitute your soul for theirs (switch places with them permanently)- would you do it?

This senerio is not possible. Our loving God can not allow us to do an evil (go to hell) to bring about a good (going to heaven).

 

[AgnosTheist]

This senerio is not possible. Our loving God can not allow us to do an evil (go to hell) to bring about a good (going to heaven).

You know its not possible, therefore its easier for you to answer this. Would you save someone you love even if it means burning in hell in their place?

 

[davidv]

You know its not possible, therefore its easier for you to answer this. Would you save someone you love even if it means burning in hell in their place?

This question is just as unfair as “Have you stopped beating your spouse?” because it comes with a built-in false assumption. That false assumption is that by damning myself, I can save another.

 

[AgnosTheist]

This question is just as unfair as “Have you stopped beating your spouse?” because it comes with a built-in false assumption. That false assumption is that by damning myself, I can save another.

You cant answer this simple hypothetical question. I’ll take that as a ‘NO’. Thanks for participating.

Dont worry, i’ll say ‘no’ to that too.

Now lets wait for Mijoy2, for whom this question was originally for.

 

[Cristiano]

Are you serious? So the devil has no freedom of action? Every alleged temptation is done with God’s permission? Effectively the devil does God’s “dirty work” for him?

I am not sure about the individual temptations but the devil cannot tempt us beyond our limits and against God’s will. That is one of the side effects of having free will.

I think you misunderstood the nature of the dilemma. Nowhere have I said that the parent could “ensure” the child’s salvation. What he could do is to prevent the child from committing a mortal sin. There is nothing impossible or farfetched about this assumption.

If you read the Bible and St. Pauls letters you will see that such a scenario is not possible. Your strawman is not possible under our belief. You can question our belief but that is a different story.

On the point of “ensuring” one’s own damnation, what you say seems to be contradicted by innumerable posts and quotations from the cathecism. I read / heard many times that an unrepented mortal sin will lead to damnation.

The posts in this forums are not “infallible”. You are correct that mortal sin will lead to damnation but it will not automatically ensure it, at the end only God decides and we cannot be 100% sure given our limited understanding of the Divine Revelation.

Just dig in Paul’s letters and you will see a discussion of the scenario that you are presenting. You should also dig more in what sin is and its relation to intent.