Is there anything more important to a Christian than personal salvation?

[Cristiano]

So you really dont know what you are talking about. For how can you say ‘beyond’ when you dont even know the limits. Oh well.

For me its crystal clear that a person who had been driven mad by his problems, had been “tested” (so to say) beyond his limits. the limits is the breaking point.

Considering that you allege to know what you are talking about please define the breaking point for a human mind. Not before or after but the point itself.

Also considering that you allege to know what you are talking about tell me where is your own specific breaking point respect to a test.

Even further considering that you allege to know what you are talking about, please tell me why should I worry what the breaking point is. I know that I will not be held accountable once I reach it in a test.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Considering that you allege to know what you are talking about please define the breaking point for a human mind. Not before or after but the point itself.

“BREAKING” Point: That moment in time when a person begins to suffer from a clinical psychotic disorder.

Also considering that you allege to know what you are talking about tell me where is your own specific breaking point respect to a test.

depends. its like testing a chair, where is the breaking point? depends on where you hit it. even so all you get is a general area where the break is gonna occur, not the p(name removed by moderator)oint location.

Even further considering that you allege to know what you are talking about, please tell me why should I worry what the breaking point is. I know that I will not be held accountable once I reach it in a test.

Im not trying to give you any worries. Im just explaining the flaw in the idea that divine tests does not go beyond the limits of a person. Fact is, people break when stressed enough.

 

[crowonsnow]

The more interesting question is how do we get assigned to one or the other. I think we do know something about that because Christ taught us some things and the Church has some teachings on it. But I don’t focus on that aspect of religion. To me that is the least important part of religion. To be frank, I think that being Christian in order to get into Heaven is a bad reason to be a Christian.

Thanks for that. That is a pretty decent way to approach it. Just like I said to Publisher, I do the same thing, but leave out the god parts.

So if nothing else I’ve finally found a couple Christian folks who are not in it for the retirement plan, and that’s a good thing. You’re not the norm, though I wish you were. I think the planet would be a lot more peaceful if religious folks did it your and Publisher’s way.

So thanks again for the response.

BTW, I don’t subscribe to your version of an afterlife, something singular and personal where I’m essentially immortal, having something called a soul. Rather, I feel quite comfortable projecting myself into other lives. The end result is that wherever I go I feel like I’ve already been there. Quirky for sure, but it works.

So my motivation for living isn’t about an afterlife, but rather living up to the legacy and expectations of noble ancestors. You don’t want to let them down as their struggles are the reason you’re here. And also you don’t want your descendents to be ashamed when they look back. So essentially you get to feel like you’re right there, past, present and future. Like I said, quirky, but it works.

Also, there is no expectation of death, just an opportunity every day to have made a positive difference down the road. You don ‘t get just one life and then it’s over, but rather you get lots of lives, lots of opportunities. Excuse me but did I say quirky?

 

[OnlineHarvest]

Is there anything more important to a Christian than personal salvation?

That’s the question.

I’m particularly interested to hear from Christians, and if a mod thinks this is better suited to another forum, please let me know and I will comply. Anyone is welcome to respond and I am interested in hearing from everyone.

The topic got started in this thread . But it has developed into a topic of its own.

Thanks!

No. Nothing more important. After that is the personal salvation of everyone else.

 

[Pug]

Rather, I feel quite comfortable projecting myself into other lives. The end result is that wherever I go I feel like I’ve already been there. Quirky for sure, but it works.

So my motivation for living isn’t about an afterlife, but rather living up to the legacy and expectations of noble ancestors. You don’t want to let them down as their struggles are the reason you’re here. And also you don’t want your descendents to be ashamed when they look back. So essentially you get to feel like you’re right there, past, present and future. Like I said, quirky, but it works.

Also, there is no expectation of death, just an opportunity every day to have made a positive difference down the road. You don ‘t get just one life and then it’s over, but rather you get lots of lives, lots of opportunities. Excuse me but did I say quirky?

I find your comments here interesting. What you are talking about has an analogous concept in Catholicism. You wish for the goals and struggles of the people before you to have meaning or to be carried on in some way. You find that fulfilled in the chain of people living after them. This gives you some satisfaction. At least, that is how I connect with what you are saying.

For a Catholic, heaven is not just some happy place. God the Father has set it up for all things to be fulfilled or summed up in Christ. This will be so in the new heavens and the new earth at the end. This means the struggles of my ancestors and myself will have meaning and fulfillment in Christ. What they have done will not pass away and be meaningless. Also, I will get to know and have a relationship with my ancestors. This grouping of people (the line of descent in this case) will be perfected in the end. On my part, I often pray for the local community in the same way, that we will be united and fulfilled. At the end, we look forward to the full realization of the unity of the human race. This is called the consummation.

The type of concern that you are talking about does not pass away and is not ignored at all in our system. We see this type of concern as being fulfilled and perfected and fully realized at the consummation.

So, I’m not so sure I see what you discuss as quirky. I mean, I don’t agree with how you address the ideas, but the ideas matter to me. Also, I find the idea that we are just in it for ourselves to be antithetical to Christianity, so I totally understand your sensitivity to any whiff of it. I think that is what is bothering you, fundamentally. It would bother me, too.

 

[crowonsnow]

At the end, we look forward to the full realization of the unity of the human race. This is called the consummation.

The type of concern that you are talking about does not pass away and is not ignored at all in our system. We see this type of concern as being fulfilled and perfected and fully realized at the consummation.

So, I’m not so sure I see what you discuss as quirky. I mean, I don’t agree with how you address the ideas, but the ideas matter to me. Also, I find the idea that we are just in it for ourselves to be antithetical to Christianity, so I totally understand your sensitivity to any whiff of it. I think that is what is bothering you, fundamentally. It would bother me, too.

Thanks Pug. That makes some sense.

The only difference between our two views is that in mine I already have that “consummation,” what you call the “unity of the human race.” Yours is a step removed. It’s a step that, respectfully, I don’t see as real, or even mattering as we go about our daily lives. I think it can even be a distraction, what you might call a temptation because it obviously tends to cheapen what religious folk refer to as things “earthly.”

I guess I have a problem understanding exactly what happens at your extra step, or why such a step is even needed. It just seems like at that extra step you speak of I’d lose all the motivations I have now. I don’t know what would be left to live for. It seems more like a death than a life. That probably doesn’t make sense to you but that’s how it comes across to me.

 

[jman507]

You know its not possible, therefore its easier for you to answer this. Would you save someone you love even if it means burning in hell in their place?

It’s not a valid hypothetical question given Catholic Theology. We cannot be sure with certainty what will or will not place render a judgement for ourselves to be in hell. Also our actions do not determine if another will end up in hell; that is up to that individuals relationship to God. Also to note we do not know who is in hell, the Faith does not permit us to know any of that with certainty. At this point in time, we cannot comprehend the full context of how the judgements are rendered.

Or also to answer that in another way, God has already done that for us, sorta depends on what you mean by hell.

As to the OP I think the better approach to an answer would be to say, both the salvation of ourselves and everyone else is of more importance. What is good for me, is also good for my brother, especially given the universal nature of our faith. Now, one important to note to add to that is to remember what you can control and what you cannot control. In decisions according to your will, you ought to be making the correct choices for your personal salvation. The salvation of others is also important, after all we are sent out to spread the Good News. The application of the Beatitudes shouldn’t be left to a solely introspective point of view. You though do not have control over their will. At the same time you can influence the other for the better or worst.

 

[The_Truthinator]

Is there anything more important to a Christian than personal salvation?

“For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my own people!” --Rom. 9:3

The New Living Translation puts it like this:

“[F]or my people…I would be willing to be forever cursed—cut off from Christ!—if that would save them.”

In short, yes. The salvation of others is far more important than our own. And as scary a thought as it is, were there some spiritual exchange in which I could trade my salvation for another’s, I would do it.

Christianity, no matter what one tries to tell you, is not a religion about self, but about others.

 

[Cristiano]

“For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my own people!” --Rom. 9:3

The New Living Translation puts it like this:

“[F]or my people…I would be willing to be forever cursed—cut off from Christ!—if that would save them.”

In short, yes. The salvation of others is far more important than our own. And as scary a thought as it is, were there some spiritual exchange in which I could trade my salvation for another’s, I would do it.

Christianity, no matter what one tries to tell you, is not a religion about self, but about others.

I do not believe that to be correct. That salvation of others is not more important than ours. You are taking that sentence out of contest. Paul was making clear that man cannot choose even if he wished so. I think that our list of priorities is clearly defined by the following:

Our Father, Who art in heaven,
Hallowed be Thy Name.
Thy Kingdom come.
Thy Will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil. Amen.

I would say that the sanctification of His Name and the doing of His Will are the most important thing for Christians.

 

[IHateNietzsche]

First of all, the question is completely hypothetical. There never has been and never can be any case in which it would be possible to trade one’s own salvation for that of another. Any sort of “magical”, automatic soul-swapping arrangement would contradict God’s divine justice. Further, the only way to lose your salvation is to die unrepentant in mortal sin. It involves a willful separation of yourself from God. To do such a thing as a means to achieve the salvation of another is equivalent to using evil as a means to good, a practice explicitly condemned by the Church. As much as Christianity is a religion of “others”, it is foremost a religion of God. Cosmic “net gains” or “net losses” must therefore be seen from God’s point of view. It is just as unjust of you to rob God of your own presence in heaven as it would be to rob him of someone else’s presence there.

Also, from a strictly practical standpoint, haven’t saints always been the biggest positive influences on people’s final destinations? When one soul is lost, the whole Church suffers. It makes no sense to suggest that anyone go to hell for someone else.

Just think - it took Our Lord’s death upon the cross to save us from certain damnation. His vicarious atonement is superabundant. Who are we to suggest that we might take His place, trading our souls for those of others?