Is there anything wrong with this?

[pm1853]

Here’s the background story. I generally attend an indult offered in my diocese, but I ignored my alarm clock this morning and woke up late for it. I live directly behind a Catholic Church, but decided to opt for a different church with an 11:00 mass.This church is a mission church and the 11:00 is the only mass that is said there all week. The administrator of the parish served mass. The church itself is a small country church in the middle of nowhere (much like every church in my area).

The mass itself was quite possibly the most reverent mass done according to the current missal I have ever attended. Most churches in my area have OCP hymnals and missals, but this church, though having an OCP hymnal, used a 2006 St. Joseph Missal. The priest did not deviate from the text of the mass once. There was even a smattering of Latin (which he chanted). Before his sermon he lead us in the Hail Mary. There were no Extraordinary Ministers (I have seen much smaller churches offering a daily mass have as many as 3), there were patens, Altar Boys only, Tabernacle in the center, most recieved the eucharist on the tongue, and the veil (is that what its called?) was over the chalice and on the altar before mass (I’ve never seen this done in New York). The only thing that stood out like a sore thumb and surprised me was the “Risen Christ” icon as opposed to the crucifix in the sanctuary. Also lacking was the sign of peace (though I am not particularly broken up about this one).

My question…I was taken aback when we the priest lead us in the prayer to St. Michael the Archangel after purification of the vessels. Is this allowed? I thought it was great, but I’ve never seen it done anywhere before. (the priest bore a SHOCKING resemblance to a circa 1975 Ringo Starr…which I thought rocked )

 

[puzzleannie]

any Catholic prayer can be used as a meditation after communion, and the congregation can be led by the priest, deacon, cantor or lector. We use the Anima Christi, other parish in town uses St. Thomas Aquinas prayer after communion. Mission churches are often furnished by “leftovers” from mother parish or other parishes. A good sanctuary crucifix would make a great gift.

 

[otm]

Well, you spoke of two “abuses” in the Mass.

There is no place for a hail Mary during the Mass - after the Gospel, before or after the homily.

And the Prayer of St Michael is a very worthy prayer, but it also has no place in the Mass; after the purification of the vessels, there is a final prayer, a place to make any announcments, and the dismissal.

Frankly, I wouldn’t get my knickers is a knot over either of the issues, but there was never a place for a Hail Mary in the Tridentine rite, nor is there in the Pauline rite. The prayer to St Michael was effectively eliminated (it was a late subsequent addition to the Tridentine rite) with the issuance of the Pauline rite.

 

[pm1853]

They have one already, its in the back of the church. It was made a mission only recently because of a decline in population.

puzzleannie:

any Catholic prayer can be used as a meditation after communion, and the congregation can be led by the priest, deacon, cantor or lector. We use the Anima Christi, other parish in town uses St. Thomas Aquinas prayer after communion. Mission churches are often furnished by “leftovers” from mother parish or other parishes. A good sanctuary crucifix would make a great gift.

 

[otm]

Normally, and in compliance with the GIRM, when there is a Risen Christ icon or statue in the sanctuary, the processional crucifix is left in the sanctuary after the entrance. If that was done, then they have followed the rules.

 

[pm1853]

otm:

Normally, and in compliance with the GIRM, when there is a Risen Christ icon or statue in the sanctuary, the processional crucifix is left in the sanctuary after the entrance. If that was done, then they have followed the rules.

No, they entered from the sacristy with no processional crucifix. I know I may be nit-picking, but this is the only church in my area that I really feel comfortable at (and that includes the “TLM” mass I generally attend). Part of me wants it perfect, which I know is impossible.

 

[Eileen_T]

puzzleannie:

any Catholic prayer can be used as a meditation after communion, and the congregation can be led by the priest, deacon, cantor or lector. We use the Anima Christi, other parish in town uses St. Thomas Aquinas prayer after communion.

Try having the priest chose a reflection after communion, and have to listen to A Native American’s Prayer to the Great Spirit!

 

[John_Lilburne]

It is wrong to put the Hail Mary and Prayer to St Michael the archangel into the Mass.

There can be hymn or silence after Communion. There can be announcements after the Prayer After Communion. But Vatican documents have made it clear that there is not to be a combining of pious exercises with the liturgy.

According to the 2001 Directory on Popular Piety and the Liturgy at vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20020513_vers-direttorio_en.html

"Liturgy and Pious Exercises

1. The Church’s teaching on the relationship of Liturgy and pious exercises may be summarized as follows: the Sacred Liturgy, in virtue of its very nature, is by far superior to pious exercises(88), and hence pastoral praxis must always accord to the Sacred Liturgy “that preeminent position proper to it in relation to pious exercises”(89); Liturgy and pious exercises must co-exist in accordance with the hierarchy of values and the nature specific to both of these cultic expressions(90).
2. Careful attention to these principles should lead to a real effort to harmonize, in so far as possible, pious exercises with the rhythm and demands of the Liturgy, thereby avoiding any “mixture or admixture of these two forms of piety”(91). This in turn ensures that no hybrid, or confused forms emerge from mixing Liturgy and pious exercises, not that the latter, contrary to the mind of the Church, are eliminated, often leaving an unfilled void to the great detriment of the faithful(92)."

Footnotes:
(88) Cf. Sacronsanctum Concilium 7.

(89) CONGREGATION FOR DIVINE WORSHIP AND THE DISCIPLINE OF THE SACRAMENTS, Circular letter Orientamenti e proposte per la celebrazione dell’Anno mariano, 54.

(90) Cf. PAUL VI, Apostolic Exhortation Marialis Cultus 31, 48.

(91) THE ITALIAN EPISCOPAL CONFERENCE, EPISCOPAL COMMISSION FOR THE LITURGY, pastoral note Il rinnovamento liturgico in Italia (23.9.1983) 18, in Enchiridion CEI, 3, Edizioni Dehoniane, Bologna 1986, p. 886.

(92) Cf. Apostolic Exhortation Marialis cultus, 31; III CONFERENCIA GENERAL DEL EPISCOPADO LATINO-AMERICANO, Documento de Puebla, 915.

 

[dumspirospero]

Maybe in the Novus Ordo…but at the conclusion of the Pre-Conciliar Latin Mass…there is always 3 Hail Mary’s and the Hail Holy Queen and the Prayer to St. Michael…actually…I don’t understand why they ever felt the need to eliminate them.
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John Lilburne:

It is wrong to put the Hail Mary and Prayer to St Michael the archangel into the Mass.

 

[pm1853]

dumspirospero:

Maybe in the Novus Ordo…but at the conclusion of the Pre-Conciliar Latin Mass…there is always 3 Hail Mary’s and the Hail Holy Queen and the Prayer to St. Michael…actually…I don’t understand why they ever felt the need to eliminate them.
\

Actually its at the end of a low mass only (hence the title Prayers after Low Mass) unless I am mistaken. Would they be permitted now? I mean the prayers specifically have AFTER in their title (if used as such).

Otherwise, thank you all for the responses. Very interesting. Simply playing devil’s advocate (bwahaha) if one were to set the Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel to music for the purpose of use as a hymn, would it be acceptable after communion? I’m not trying to stir up controversy, I’m just quite curious.

 

[puzzleannie]

what is wrong, in my not so humble opinion (you all know already I am not humble, so why pretend) is attending Mass with the attitude of the liturgy police, looking for the minutest details to criticize. I can’t help but think our minds and hearts should be focused elsewhere. If all you brought away from Mass was a concern for these details, then I would counsel you to examine your attitude toward the Mass and worship in general. I say you not meaning just OP but all of us who have nothing better to do than criticize our priests.

 

[pm1853]

puzzleannie:

what is wrong, in my not so humble opinion (you all know already I am not humble, so why pretend) is attending Mass with the attitude of the liturgy police, looking for the minutest details to criticize. I can’t help but think our minds and hearts should be focused elsewhere. If all you brought away from Mass was a concern for these details, then I would counsel you to examine your attitude toward the Mass and worship in general. I say you not meaning just OP but all of us who have nothing better to do than criticize our priests.

Please do not undermine my curiosity. I had a question dealing with a particular practice I have never seen/heard before. Those things are bound to stick out in one’s mind. I already know that my attitude towards mass isn’t what it should be, thats why I go to mass. I would think thats part of the reason why we all go to mass. All I simply wanted was to voice my curiosity. Thank you all for your replies.

 

[Lorrie]

puzzleannie:

what is wrong, in my not so humble opinion (you all know already I am not humble, so why pretend) is attending Mass with the attitude of the liturgy police, looking for the minutest details to criticize. I can’t help but think our minds and hearts should be focused elsewhere. If all you brought away from Mass was a concern for these details, then I would counsel you to examine your attitude toward the Mass and worship in general. I say you not meaning just OP but all of us who have nothing better to do than criticize our priests.

Thank you.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

dumspirospero:

Maybe in the Novus Ordo…but at the conclusion of the Pre-Conciliar Latin Mass…there is always 3 Hail Mary’s and the Hail Holy Queen and the Prayer to St. Michael…actually…I don’t understand why they ever felt the need to eliminate them.
\

Dum: The Prayer to Saint Michael (beautiful and worthy) was added at the end of the Mass by HH Pope Leo XIII, who reigned from 1878-1903. In terms of the history of the Church, they were an extremely recent innovation, some 60-70 years old by the time of the council.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

puzzleannie:

what is wrong, in my not so humble opinion (you all know already I am not humble, so why pretend) is attending Mass with the attitude of the liturgy police, looking for the minutest details to criticize. I can’t help but think our minds and hearts should be focused elsewhere. If all you brought away from Mass was a concern for these details, then I would counsel you to examine your attitude toward the Mass and worship in general. I say you not meaning just OP but all of us who have nothing better to do than criticize our priests.

AMEN! I got to the point where the liturgy police were squawking like hens inside my head and interfering with my ability to prayerfully attend upon the REALITY of the Mass. I’ve seen a handful of glaring abuses, but really, most are just minor things that shouldn’t detract from the Holy Sacrifice, if we can manage to focus on our own sinfulness and need for mercy, and not on the “stage management” skills of our priests.

 

[pm1853]

All I asked was a question, all I wanted was an answer. Frankly, I liked the innovations that the priest did, whether I’m wrong for that or not, I haven’t a clue. The priest was extremely sincere in his actions (and that sincerity is reflected in the church bulletin). I just pointed out a few things that I noticed and I got an answer early on. Thank you for the replies.

 

[JimG]

One of our priests, following the prayer intercessions given by the lector, adds several petitions for the recently deceased of the parish, and then sums up our prayer intentions by offering all of them through the intercession of our mother Mary, followed by a communal praying of the Hail Mary to complete the petitions. Guess I just don’t see anything too horrible about that.

 

[goldenautumnday]

puzzleannie:

what is wrong, in my not so humble opinion (you all know already I am not humble, so why pretend) is attending Mass with the attitude of the liturgy police, looking for the minutest details to criticize. I can’t help but think our minds and hearts should be focused elsewhere. If all you brought away from Mass was a concern for these details, then I would counsel you to examine your attitude toward the Mass and worship in general. I say you not meaning just OP but all of us who have nothing better to do than criticize our priests.

Very well said.

I do believe that sometimes with all the pages and pages and books and books that the Church has become like the Pharisees – too caught up in the letter of the law as opposed to the spirit of the law.

And pm1853, this is not meant to disparage you. I am well aware the I am guilty myself in getting caught up in the mechanics of the mass and losing sight of the Real Presence in the Mass.

Paul

 

[goldenautumnday]

Of course, after just having wrote that, it is nice in a way to have Mass ‘done by the book’. So that, in my travels, the Mass is same in all corners of the world and I don’t get confused.

I don’t speak Spanish, but attended a Spanish Mass once as there were no English Masses available and I was able to follow pretty well. Of course, I did not get any thing the priest said during his Homily! But, the Real Presence was there!

Paul

 

[AltarMan]

pm1853:

…Before his sermon he lead us in the Hail Mary…

Catholic priests give homilies at the Mass, not sermons. The praying of the Hail Mary may have been the beginning of his homily. Some priests (such as Fr. Miguel and Fr. Dominic) on EWTN end their homilies with the praying of the Hail Mary – quite properly and within the rubrics.