Is there anything you DO like?

[hays1122]

I’ve been reading these forums, trying to get an understanding of the EF and OF Mass. This research includes what changes were actually made during Vatican II, how our parishes came about their interpretations (the ones you guys don’t seem to agree with, like peace offerings etc), and where should I invest my time (which Mass has more staying power so that I don’t choose to go to one if it’s going to be changed or removed).

Anyways, my question is to all you “trads”:

Is there anything about the NO Mass that you do like, or at least agree that it was authorized by Vatican II and is legit?

I’m not trying to be sarcastic at all; this is a legitimate question from someone who is in RCIA and trying to learn about Catholicism.

Thanks in advance.

What is meant by the “NO Mass”?
Sounds like there’s some kind of split within the catholic church.

 

[maurin]

The NO Mass, as it is celebrated in almost every Parish I have gone to is an abomination: it is a celebration of the cult of the man. The Eucharistic “Prayers” are deficient in many ways, especially the most common one, #2, which totally removes the distinction between the Ministerial Priesthood and that of the People.

You say you are seeking a Mass that will not change. The NO Mass is constantly changing, depending on the whims of the Priest celebrating. The rubrics of the NO Mass go so far as to encourage different celebrations, different choices.

The Traditional Mass is Timeless. The most charitable response that can be made to you is to assist only at a Traditional Mass.

 

[weepixie71]

i was raised in the novus ordo church. when i was younger i loved to go to church. we sang fun songs, father was funny but still managed to get his point across. all in all it was fine. but then i saw changes that struck me as odd. things that didnt feel or seem like they belonged. i also didnt feel growth in my love for Christ or for the mass. as a matter of fact, it seemed the more i went the harder it was to get out of bed to go.
then i went to a tridentine mass (totally by accident). i felt like i stepped back in time. the women and men dressed different and i didnt understand a word… but the church was overwhelmingly catholic. marble alter, organ music and chant, beautiful statues, incense, the priest was so involved in the consecration with his back turned that i felt like an interloper but at the same time i couldnt take my eyes away either. from this moment on i have been hooked to the tridentine mass. i do believe i get more graces from the tridentine mass because my faith has flourished.
you cant compare the two. they are too different. i dont know if one is right and the other isnt. all i know is one to me feels more right. i like to call this the “catholic know”.

 

[franklinf]

The NO Mass, as it is celebrated in almost every Parish I have gone to is an abomination: it is a celebration of the cult of the man. The Eucharistic “Prayers” are deficient in many ways, especially the most common one, #2, which totally removes the distinction between the Ministerial Priesthood and that of the People.

You say you are seeking a Mass that will not change. The NO Mass is constantly changing, depending on the whims of the Priest celebrating. The rubrics of the NO Mass go so far as to encourage different celebrations, different choices.

The Traditional Mass is Timeless. The most charitable response that can be made to you is to assist only at a Traditional Mass.

Isn’t that the truth. Ironic, considering that the codification of the Roman Missal by St. Pius V was brought about to bring about uniformity in the Latin Rite.

 

[maurin]

i like to call this the “catholic know”.

or the “sensus fidei”, or sense of the Faith.

 

[weepixie71]

or the “sensus fidei”, or sense of the Faith.

i dont know what its called but im thankful for it because i can be a catholic raising my family in a peace i dont think i would have been able to before the graces i received when i was attending the novus ordo.
please know people, i am not saying the novus ordo is wrong. im just saying it was wrong for me and my family.

 

[Dauphin]

i dont know if one is right and the other isnt. all i know is one to me feels more right. i like to call this the “catholic know”.

I think you’re referring to the “encounter with Mystery” Fr. Z talks about.

The Traditional Latin Mass is perfectly crafted to communicate the profundity of the sacrifice. It makes you tremble before the majesty of God and stand in awe of the unfathomable depth of His love. It’s unmistakable that the incarnate Lord becomes present on the altar.

When the preface is chanted at High Mass, the mystery and depth of what’s about to happen become inescapable:

http://www.fssp.com/main/audio/ICD-18.mp3

 

[JRKH]

What is meant by the “NO Mass”?
Sounds like there’s some kind of split within the catholic church.

“NO” Stands for “Novus Ordo” or “New Mass” It is one way of distinguishing from the Older Tridentine Mass.

Pope Benedict XVI has encouraged th use of both forms and I believe the offcial terminology is:
OF = Ordinary Form, Which is the N.O. Mass most often celebrated in the vernacular
EF - Extraordinary Form, which is the TLM or Traditional Latin Rite.

While there is a schism currently in the Church between the old and new, it does not revolve around the mass per se but rather around the changes implemented by Vatican II.
The Holy Father and Church Leaders are doing what they can to heal the rift.

Peace
James

 

[franklinf]

“NO” Stands for “Novus Ordo” or “New Mass” It is one way of distinguishing from the Older Tridentine Mass.

Pope Benedict XVI has encouraged th use of both forms and I believe the offcial terminology is:
OF = Ordinary Form, Which is the N.O. Mass most often celebrated in the vernacular
EF - Extraordinary Form, which is the TLM or Traditional Latin Rite.

While there is a schism currently in the Church between the old and new, it does not revolve around the mass per se but rather around the changes implemented by Vatican II.
The Holy Father and Church Leaders are doing what they can to heal the rift.

Peace
James

There is no schism. The Holy Father and representatives of Ecclesia Dei have stated as much. Irregular, yes. Schism, no.

 

[weepixie71]

I think you’re referring to the “encounter with Mystery” Fr. Z talks about.

The Traditional Latin Mass is perfectly crafted to communicate the profundity of the sacrifice. It makes you tremble before the majesty of God and stand in awe of the unfathomable depth of His love. It’s unmistakable that the incarnate Lord becomes present on the altar.

When the preface is chanted at High Mass, the mystery and depth of what’s about to happen become inescapable:

http://www.fssp.com/main/audio/ICD-18.mp3

yep thats it… it scared the bajeezers out of me… my catholic faith for probably the first time became very real

 

[Navarre]

An N.O. Mass with all its variations isn’t easier to follow just because its in the vernacular. There’s 4 different Eucharistic prayers, different greetings, etc. The TLM is perfectly capable of being easily followed. The Mass doesn’t change from week to week and missals are available.

There is active involvement in the TLM too. Just because there aren’t rote verbal replies does not mean there is active involvement. True active involvement is to unite your prayers with that of the priest.

Furthermore, are you saying communion from the chalice is better? If so, why? We receive the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity, of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ through the Host, the chalice isn’t needed. The use of the chalice by the laity increases the chance of spillage, which is undoubtedly a bad thing.

That’s right, I forgot. I also appreciate the selection of Eucharistic Prayers. The Marian EPs are particularly beautiful! Good save, thanks!

I will NEVER to able to follow the EP with a missalette as fluidly and easily as I can the OP with no missalette needed.

Verbally engaging in the penitential rite with my fellow parishioners is powerful. Far more powerful to me personally than listening to some altar boys.

The sign value of communion under both kinds via the chalice is far superior to communion with one species. It’s even better than intinction from purely a sign value.

A great deal. It’s the Mass most often celebrated by Pope Benedict XVI; Mass in vernacular which is so much easier to follow; concelebration; penitential rite with entire congregation actively involved; more and expanded Bible readings; homily in place of sermon; selection of Eucharistic Prayers (esp. the Marian EPs). sign of peace; communion from chalice and more.

 

[damooster]

There is no schism. The Holy Father and representatives of Ecclesia Dei have stated as much. Irregular, yes. Schism, no.

It FEELS like a schism.

My personal observation, and this is by no means an attack on anyone, is that traditionalists are far more harsh in their opinions of the OF Mass. I certainly understand why people are upset with this change, but I have to ask: if the Church says that both forms of Mass are equally valid, and that EF Mass may be offered as long as the participants acknowledge the validity of the OF Mass, how can we call one Mass an “abomination?”

Again, not trying to be argumentative. I’m just learning. I hope you can see how this appears to a new convert. I want to attend a TLM but refuse to go alone (makes me nervous)…my sponsor said he will go with me in a couple of weeks.

Thanks again.

 

[Jordan_Francis]

Personally, there are many changes that came with the Novus Ordo that I wish never occurred (and I was born into the N.O)

I appreciate the use of the vernacular and think it was and is necessary for an “ordinary form”. But I wish portions of Latin had been retained throughout- perhaps the Creed and the consecration. I long to hear the priest say “In Nomine Patris…” Everyone knows what that means. The Kyrie should always be in Greek. If the Latins made Latin universal, but retained the Greek Kyrie, I don’t understand why we have it in English today.

• I do appreciate the chalice being given to us. The bread and wine together make for a more potent reception for me.
• I do appreciate the simplicity of many of the NO prayers. The Latin prayers are beautiful too, but the simplicity also has an expressly biblical feel.
• I am increasingly leaning towards to ad orientem. Its change seems to be tied to the catastrophe of architectural vision. A traditional altar seems quite superior to me and the idea of “facing the Lord” seems to be better theology.
• I don’t think altar rails should have been removed
• I think Catholicism has suffered a devastating blow to its musical tradition. Bring back chant!
• too many priests at the NO (especially daily Mass) move too quickly. The EF seems to be slower, and the priest more conscious and deliberate. This is conductive to awe.

Despite all this, I normally attend the Ordinary form, because it is the ordinary form and because I know from experience it can be prayed quite reverently. When it is done so, I notice it is different from non-Catholic services, such as the Anglican. There is a qualitative difference.

It seems to me that the NO deserves the most care and attention at this particular historical moment, because in its fragility hangs the entire future of our Faith. (Not that it could truly be destroyed)

I hope and pray to see a restoration of the Liturgy along the lines of a more reverent, more conscious, more sublime Novus Ordo Mass. God bless and protect Benedict that he might begin to implement something like this (as we all know he wants to).

 

[JRKH]

There is no schism. The Holy Father and representatives of Ecclesia Dei have stated as much. Irregular, yes. Schism, no.

Thanks for the clarification.

I’m not really up on all of this, However it seems to me that there is a splinter group or two that have elected their own “pope”. I’m sure you’d agree that these are in schism. Of course that is a whole different thread. I guess.

 

[JRKH]

Personally, there are many changes that came with the Novus Ordo that I wish never occurred (and I was born into the N.O)

I appreciate the use of the vernacular and think it was and is necessary for an “ordinary form”. But I wish portions of Latin had been retained throughout- perhaps the Creed and the consecration. I long to hear the priest say “In Nomine Patris…” Everyone knows what that means. The Kyrie should always be in Greek. If the Latins made Latin universal, but retained the Greek Kyrie, I don’t understand why we have it in English today.

• I do appreciate the chalice being given to us. The bread and wine together make for a more potent reception for me.
• I do appreciate the simplicity of many of the NO prayers. The Latin prayers are beautiful too, but the simplicity also has an expressly biblical feel.
• I am increasingly leaning towards to ad orientem. Its change seems to be tied to the catastrophe of architectural vision. A traditional altar seems quite superior to me and the idea of “facing the Lord” seems to be better theology.
• I don’t think altar rails should have been removed
• I think Catholicism has suffered a devastating blow to its musical tradition. Bring back chant!
• too many priests at the NO (especially daily Mass) move too quickly. The EF seems to be slower, and the priest more conscious and deliberate. This is conductive to awe.

Despite all this, I normally attend the Ordinary form, because it is the ordinary form and because I know from experience it can be prayed quite reverently. When it is done so, I notice it is different from non-Catholic services, such as the Anglican. There is a qualitative difference.

It seems to me that the NO deserves the most care and attention at this particular historical moment, because in its fragility hangs the entire future of our Faith. (Not that it could truly be destroyed)

I hope and pray to see a restoration of the Liturgy along the lines of a more reverent, more conscious, more sublime Novus Ordo Mass. God bless and protect Benedict that he might begin to implement something like this (as we all know he wants to).

Absolutely wonderful post.
I agree with virtually everything here. The only thing I would say is, in regard to retaining some Latin, I would leave the Creed in English simply because this is our profession of faith and should be readily understandable to anyone in attendance at the Mass. A Latin Consecration as well as a Latin Sanctus would sound Great!

Music - YES YES bring back the Good and Godly Music.

Peace
James

 

[WhollyRoamin]

I like the fuller use of scripture in the NO Mass; the 3-year cycle covers more ground. I also like the greater emphasis on the psalms. The TLM also prays from the book psalms, but it’s a smaller part. These aren’t major impediments to me-- I own a bible and know how to read. But if I had to come up with one whole-hearted compliment about the NOM, that’s it.

Other than than the fuller use of the Bible, I’ve been racking my brain and can’t come up with anything else.

 

[latinmasslover]

Just trying to get a little background on you if you don’t mind:

When were you confirmed?
Did you start with the Tridentine Mass, or did you find your way there from the NO Mass?

Thank you for your response.

Oh, sorry. Confirmed May 2002 with the modernized Rite, the year I came back to the Church. I had spent the whole year studying everything I could about the Church, but found myself wondering why the Church I was learning about wasn’t the one that seemed to be around. Our parish offers the Tridentine 2-3 times a month, so I started to attend it and fell in love (actually, I fell in love before I ever *experienced *the liturgy of the Saints). I found my way there through much study and prayer.

 

[Navarre]

I like the fuller use of scripture in the NO Mass; the 3-year cycle covers more ground. I also like the greater emphasis on the psalms. The TLM also prays from the book psalms, but it’s a smaller part. These aren’t major impediments to me-- I own a bible and know how to read. But if I had to come up with one whole-hearted compliment about the NOM, that’s it.

Other than than the fuller use of the Bible, I’ve been racking my brain and can’t come up with anything else.

It’s the Mass most often celebrated by Pope Benedict XVI; Mass in vernacular which is so much easier to follow; concelebration; penitential rite with entire congregation actively involved; more and expanded Bible readings; homily in place of sermon; selection of Eucharistic Prayers (esp. the Marian EPs). sign of peace; communion from chalice and more.

 

[oldmass]

It’s the Mass (i.e. NO Mass) most often celebrated by Pope Benedict XVI;

To my knowledge it is the Mass celebrated exclusively by the Holy Father. If he has ever celebrated the Old Mass, it can not have been more than once or twice.

 

[WhollyRoamin]

It’s the Mass most often celebrated by Pope Benedict XVI; Mass in vernacular which is so much easier to follow; concelebration; penitential rite with entire congregation actively involved; more and expanded Bible readings; homily in place of sermon; selection of Eucharistic Prayers (esp. the Marian EPs). sign of peace; communion from chalice and more.

That’s the one! Congratulations, you pass.