Is there ever a reason not to convert

[RyanL_s_Wife]

Hello again,

Sorry I haven’t posted today, it has been a very hectic day. I do appreciate all your info and advice.

I will try and find some free time before the night is over, but mainly I just wanted to let you know I haven’t disappeared and all you post will be delved into as soon as I can find a moment away from my needy little one.

Thanks,

RyanL’s Wifes

 

[John_Paul_III]

One of the greatest things for me was I did not leave the Baptist church behind, it prepared me for who I am now.

On my new Catholic confirmation certificate it mentions the Baptist church where I was baptized and then the confirmation and new name given when I became Catholic. Pretty neat testimony when I am given a hard time by friends.

 

[RyanL_s_Wife]

You have all given me a lot to think about, so thank you very much. I will try and answer “some” of you questions now, but must ponder more on some of the “others” (yes, that means you might have stumped me… I haven’t decided yet.)

hurst:

As a Catholic, it is not an option. We must confess our mortal sins to a priest as a normal means to be absolved. Of course, exceptions are allowed where it is not possible. But it is not an open option.

Yes, I know it is NOT an option, which is why it is a problem. As I said, I don’t have a problem with confession, but I also think/thought it was not necessary either. Knowing this opinion would not be possible if I converted…that was the problem.

But that private confession does not by itself completely restore your relationship.

It is insufficient for several reasons:

1. it leaves out the injury done to our neighbor.

Some one else mentions this…I am not sure I understand it. I do know that we need to ask whoever we injured for forgiveness first. I can and have done this, but I don’t see how it requires you to confess to a priest in order to accomplish this. (am I misunderstanding? Please elaborate?)

1. it leaves out the requirement of doing penance

I will have to ponder this one… I guess I always thought your penance would present itself in some form or fashion… I will get back to you on this one.

1. it leaves out the requirement to be and remain sorry

Maybe I used the wrong wording at some point. There are things that I have done that I will always regret, that I am sorry I did, that if I could take back I would, but while regretting it, I have still turned that guilt over to God and no longer carry the guilt of my actions. Does this fit into your requirement? The way I am reading it, it does…but I will openly admit, I may not be understanding your position as well I as I think I am.

1. it leaves out the implication of residual punishment or penalty

By claiming that God takes away our sin, I never claimed we wouldn’t suffer or be punished for that sin. I lied to my mom when I was little, and I asked her and God for forgiveness…that doesn’t mean I wasn’t grounded because of the lie.

This is where you are mistaken. What do you mean by “sin is gone”? The guilt of the sin is taken away (providing you are truly sorry), but the fault and residual penalty do not automatically disappear. Also, it does not explicitly say confess “privately to God”. Confess implies in the hearing of men.

I think I answered this above as far as the “sin is gone” issue. It is more, as you said, the guilt is gone.
As for confessing to men. Some of us (Baptists) sometime have prayer buddies or accountability pals. These are the people we tell our bigger sins to. (something you might consider a mortal sin…give or take since we don’t separate sins the same as Catholics do) And if it is a littler sin we are constantly committing, we might talk about that one as well. We tell each other our problem with such and such sin, we pray for each as well as hold the other accountable for our action and try to help one another avoid that sin in the future. Doesn’t this fall under “hearing of men”

Also, we have no right to presume we have received it, even after doing penance.
Acts 8:22 Do penance therefore for this thy wickedness; and pray to God, that perhaps this thought of thy heart may be forgiven thee.

Okay…but what about 1 John 1:9 “He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins” ???

This is another one I will have to think about.

RyanL’s Wife

ps…sorry if I was overly blunt…there are alot of questions to answer and I am just trying to get through them, please don’t think I am being short with any of you.

 

[RyanL_s_Wife]

Petra,

I could cut and paste all the different parts of your post that intrigued me, but we have already all read it, so I won’t take up the space. Please know that I am grateful for all you’ve written and I will continue to consider what you have said. I believe Hurst re-posted to gist of it. It is definitely something I will have to meditate on some more. Thank you so much.

puzzle annie,

“spiritual headship” of the husband

If you are referring to the husband as the spiritual leader of the home, then yes…this is the exact reason I forced myself to look into the faith. When my husband started practicing his faith, I was angry, hurt , betrayed. This was not what I married into, this was not something I would have every considered marrying into. We married with the agreement, we would raise our children in the Baptist church. However, this was not God’s plan. He brought my husband back into the church and Ryan became a faithful Catholic. I felt lied to and betrayed…why? Because he is the spiritual leader of my household. I felt, as his wife, I had no other choice but to convert. Not to would be disobeying God, but converting (at the time) would mean giving up my faith, my beliefs. I was heartbroken!!! Thankfully, Ryan told me, he would never ask me to convert…and here we are today. I am searching on my own free will, but yes, it all come back to, how can I be one with my husband if we have different beliefs…this separates us, and that is not how God intended marriage to be.

The spiritual headship, as you called it, is a very big deal for some of us. I even had a friend, who some would call anti-catholic, tell me I had not choice but to convert; for the sake of my marriage . So yes, spiritual headship is a big deal.

John Paul III

On my new Catholic confirmation certificate it mentions the Baptist church where I was baptized and then the confirmation and new name given when I became Catholic. Pretty neat testimony when I am given a hard time by friends

That IS pretty cool. Thanks for sharing.

To everyone on the thread,

Thanks for all your insight. It has really helped me out…keep your eyes peeled for my next thread on whatever other issues I have about converting. I know I didn’t mention every post or poster, but I did read them all and took something from each of your posts.

Thanks again,
RyanL’s Wife

 

[mercygate]

RyanL’s Wife (Amy),

You are one remarkable woman! Man! For someone in your position, where you say you married into a different contract, your respect for your husband’s integrity through his reversion to his faith is breathtaking. What a testimony to your confidence in him and in the Lord who has called him home.

If you ever do decide to leap the Tiber, your joint journey would make a remarkable episode on “The Journey Home!”

OK. Let’s take a breather from all this heavy stuff.

Barista! Two double mocha cappuccinos over here, on my tab. :tiphat:

 

[RyanL_s_Wife]

mercygate:

You are one remarkable woman! Man! For someone in your position, where you say you married into a different contract, your respect for your husband’s integrity through his reversion to his faith is breathtaking. What a testimony to your confidence in him and in the Lord who has called him home.

Barista! Two double mocha cappuccinos over here, on my tab. :tiphat:

Thanks again for you kind words!

And,

Yeah Cappuccinos… So funny! :bounce:

RyanL’s Wife

 

[robbmiller]

As for confessing to men. Some of us (Baptists) sometime have prayer buddies or accountability pals. These are the people we tell our bigger sins to. (something you might consider a mortal sin…give or take since we don’t separate sins the same as Catholics do) And if it is a littler sin we are constantly committing, we might talk about that one as well. We tell each other our problem with such and such sin, we pray for each as well as hold the other accountable for our action and try to help one another avoid that sin in the future. Doesn’t this fall under “hearing of men”

There is one difference that you may not have considered: the Seal of Confession mandates confidentiality. The priest may not disclose your sin to anyone, even at the penalty of death.

This allows extraordinary honesty in the confessional booth.

Part of the problem with confessing to a friend is that there are certain things you would never say to them for fear of being judged by them, or fear that they may disclose your sin to others.

Perhaps it would be useful for you to think of the priest as your prayer partner. And what a great prayer partner he is! Through the sacramental and apostolic nature of the Catholic Church your new prayer partner, the priest, reaches back through time and touches the incarnate Christ!

Blessings,
Robb Miller
†

 

[mercygate]

RyanL's Wife:

Thanks again for you kind words!

And,

Yeah Cappuccinos… So funny! :bounce:

RyanL’s Wife

Amy, I did not mean two jolly fat Franciscan (Capuchin) friars! But, come to think of it, that might be something worth trying.

 

[RyanL_s_Wife]

robbmiller:

Part of the problem with confessing to a friend is that there are certain things you would never say to them for fear of being judged by them, or fear that they may disclose your sin to others.

Ummmm, I don’t think this was ever a problem for me… Maybe I am just overlyhonest. Or I just have really great friends that I love and trust…

However…

Perhaps it would be useful for you to think of the priest as your prayer partner. And what a great prayer partner he is! Through the sacramental and apostolic nature of the Catholic Church your new prayer partner, the priest, reaches back through time and touches the incarnate Christ!

This is a very useful thing to think about. That you for pointing this one out. I hadn’t thought about it in this way before.

Thanks,

RyanL’s Wife

 

[hurst]

RyanL's Wife:

But that private confession does not by itself completely restore your relationship.

It is insufficient for several reasons:

1. it leaves out the injury done to our neighbor.

Some one else mentions this…I am not sure I understand it. I do know that we need to ask whoever we injured for forgiveness first. I can and have done this, but I don’t see how it requires you to confess to a priest in order to accomplish this. (am I misunderstanding? Please elaborate?)

There are a number of reasons it would be good and/or necessary to confess to a priest besides simply being commanded to by the Church:

1. you might need to be told to repair the injury or ask forgiveness

Sometimes you won’t want to go tell the other person you are sorry - sometimes through embarrassment, other times because you aren’t sure it was really wrong. Sometimes it takes the priest telling you that you need to do it.

1. you sometimes need to tell someone else in their place

Supposing the person you injured dies before you talk with him? There is another thread on this forum regarding a baseball player who purposely hurt a catcher, though not intending to kill him. Yet, the catcher died from injuries in the hospital.

1. you need a representative for telling a large number of people

In the above case, how can he find out every person who witnessed his malice from the stands and apologize to them for the mental injury he gave them?

One part of going to the priest is that he represents the community that was injured, the Body of Christ, and authoritatively actualizes reconciliation. He grafts you back onto the vine as a living member. He represents the community forgiving you as well. Once others know you went to confess to a priest, they can know you have been “officially” and visibly reconciled and have humbly submitted yourself to judgement on the matter. It is not subjectively determined by oneself. One of the duties of the priest in the confessional is to act as a judge to determine the gravity of sin and assign penance to make satisfaction. For example, if you steal money from someone, you must restore that money, if possible, to be forgiven.

1. you need help staying accountable to complete a penance

Another part is that the priest helps to hold you accountable. Typically, you are required to go to your parish priest for confession, because he has immediate responsibility for your soul. If you had stolen money, your later confessions would involve updates on the status of your making restitution. He is essentially your spiritual director.

1. the Church can know the spiritual state of the flock and apply protections and remedies as a body

Also, by everyone going to confession to the pastor, he will know his flock and it will be harder for a wolf in sheep’s clothing to hide therein. Nowadays it is hard to stick to one priest for confession, and I think the rules have been somewhat relaxed regarding only going to your parish priest, but many realize the importance of having a spiritual director. But you should stay within the diocese, since ultimately, it is the bishop who is responsible for your soul, and the priests simply represent the bishop. A bishop or priest has to make decisions, and knowing the spiritual condition of his flock - for which he is responsible - it very important.

1. we are called to subject ourselves to authority

If we don’t go to a priest, but only ever confess in our own private hearing, we are not subjecting ourselves to obedience regarding our behaviour. Yet, we are called to submit to the governing authority, to parents, husbands, and even anyone.

1 Peter 2:13 Be ye subject therefore to every human creature for God’s sake

And also, to the bishop.

1 Peter 2:25 For you were as sheep going astray; but you are now converted to the shepherd and bishop of your souls.

That the Church has visible authority is hinted at elsewhere:

Matthew 18:17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

​

I am sure there are others, but these should provide something to think about.

hurst

 

[hurst]

RyanL's Wife:

1. it leaves out the requirement to be and remain sorry

Maybe I used the wrong wording at some point. There are things that I have done that I will always regret, that I am sorry I did, that if I could take back I would, but while regretting it, I have still turned that guilt over to God and no longer carry the guilt of my actions. Does this fit into your requirement? The way I am reading it, it does…but I will openly admit, I may not be understanding your position as well I as I think I am.

Yes, but what do you mean by “regret”. There are different levels of grief for having sinned. Regret for punishment or embarrassment is not true sorrow that leads to life. But if you mean you realize and accept the penalty or embarrassment as deserved (and less than you deserve) and deeply grieve for having offended the goodness of God (via your neighbor), and are energetic to do penance to atone, then you are on the right track.

2 Corinthians 7:10 For the sorrow that is according to God worketh penance, steadfast unto salvation; but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
RyanL's Wife:

By claiming that God takes away our sin, I never claimed we wouldn’t suffer or be punished for that sin.

Ok, thanks for making that clear. Now let me say that by confessing to a priest, you can diminish the non-eternal penalty portion due to your sin by suffering the shame connected to openly marking yourself as a sinner and making it known to him the kind of sinner you are or have been.
RyanL's Wife:

As for confessing to men. Some of us (Baptists) sometime have prayer buddies or accountability pals. … Doesn’t this fall under “hearing of men”

Sure, and that is an excellent practice! But non-ordained persons do not have authority to loose those sins.

Matthew 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Your contrition (sorrow) would have to be perfect for the guilt to be removed, but at least you now have someone to help you overcome in faith.

But there are advantages in going to a priest under the authority of the Catholic Church to hear you.

1. By the power of the “keys” in the priest, Catholics obtain forgiveness even if their contrition is not perfect, as long as they have some contrition.
2. Secondly, they can be forgiven for forgotten sins by the same power of the keys. (But the penalty for forgotten sins is not diminished.)
3. You encounter Christ sacramentally; you obtain graces both for reconciliation in general and also for your faults in particular, to strengthen you against repeating them, in proportion to your contrition.
4. you practise the virtues of obedience and humility (though for a Catholic to refuse to go is to hold onto the vices of disobedience and pride, and thus remain in sin)

Think of it like this: the priest helps you obtain grace that you could not otherwise obtain so easily.

John 21:15 … Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs.

You don’t like the requirement part of it… but consider that once someone is given a grace, it becomes a duty to them to fulfill it:

Jeremias 20:9 Then I said: I will not make mention of him, nor speak any more in his name: and there came in my heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was wearied, not being able to bear it.

1 Corinthians 9:16 For if I preach the gospel, it is no glory to me, for a necessity lieth upon me: for woe is unto me if I preach not the gospel.

By joining the Catholic Church, you would be gaining immense graces and treasures - but you are now more obligated. But it is the same for anyone who comes to Christ: and obligation is upon us to take up our cross, etc.

hurst

 

[hurst]

RyanL's Wife:

Okay…but what about 1 John 1:9 “He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins”

Integrate it with 2 Corinthians 7:10

2 Corinthians 7:10 For the sorrow that is according to God worketh penance, steadfast unto salvation; but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Test yourself: How would you react if someone threw a past sin back into your face? And what if that person was a Christian?

Would you be indignant, claiming that the sin is gone; that it has no power over you; that God has cast it away as the East is from the West (Ps 102:12); that God has already forgiven you; and otherwise refuse to back down?

Or would you acknowledge you did in fact do that; that you are sorry even to this day; that you did, do, and will do what you can to atone for it; and otherwise allow it to remind you of the humility you must remain in – regardless of the fact that it was mean for someone to throw it back in your face – and even consider it as part of your penance to patiently endure such a trial?

Which of these two, in your opinion, shows someone who has true contrition and is showing fruit worthy of penance for their sin, and is truly forgiven? Which is trying to justify themselves under the guise of God’s promises, but do not demonstrate by their actions that they actually care about being forgiven by God?

Luke 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of penance; and do not begin to say, We have Abraham for our father. …

John 8:39 They answered, and said to him: Abraham is our father. Jesus saith to them: If you be the children of Abraham, do the works of Abraham.

John 9:39 And Jesus said: For judgment I am come into this world; that they who see not, may see; and they who see, may become blind. 40 And some of the Pharisees, who were with him, heard: and they said unto him: Are we also blind? 41 Jesus said to them: If you were blind, you should not have sin: but now you say: We see. Your sin remaineth.

I bring up this last example, because I know someone who fit the first category. They thought you weren’t supposed to be sorry for it anymore. I think this is the basis for the “joy” of many such Christians. But I do believe they are sorely mistaken. We must suffer and grieve our whole life, while yet rejoicing in that very suffering which is leading us to eternal life, where every tear will be wiped away.

hurst

 

[RyanL_s_Wife]

Makes sense. I just need time to work it all out in my head.

Never fear, I will post again if I have any more questions.

Thanks for all your help.

RyanL’s Wife

 

[Vir_Dei]

Hmm, do you think it was God’s plan for you to become married to your husband? If so why?

Perhaps this actually was your calling to become a Catholic. Anyway, good luck with your choice!

 

[YinYangMom]

RyanL's Wife:

I was always taught God answers prayer with Yes, No, and Wait. I haven’t got a yes or a no…so I am stuck waiting. I just wonder if I will be waiting forever. (which is essence would mean remaining protestant.)

RyanL’s Wife

And there’s the issue
You’re inactively ‘waiting’.
What you should be doing is actively wait.

To inactively wait, you basically exist as always, doing the same things, until that ‘aha’ moment hits you.

To actively wait, you initiate energy toward receiving that ‘aha’ moment.

You need to be preparing your heart, mind and soul to receive God’s ‘aha’ when He sends it, otherwise you won’t recognize it when it comes.

Someone recommended the video “Finding the Fullness of Faith” by Stephen Ray, a baptist convert to Catholicism to me when I asked about how to approach my Catholic brother who has been Baptist the past 17 years. Perhaps you should order the video. If you can watch it as soon as you receive it, great. If not, put it next to the VCR so that it’s always visible. Pray about having an open mind and heart to what it contains and for courage to view it. God will answer, as He always does.

In the meantime, the gentleman recommended Ray’s book about his conversion “Crossing the Tiber: Evangelical Protestants Discover the Historical Church” if you think you’re more likely to read his story than watch it (though the gentleman says the video if powerful).

In any case, the thing is, you should be availing yourself of the vast resources around you to learn more about Catholicism. As you read more, listen more, watch more, the Truth will reveal itself to you. I believe it will lead you to Catholicism, but it really is quite possible it will reaffirm your belief to remain Baptist. In either case, at least you will have your answer because you actively sought it and prepared yourself to receive it.

As to your question, I don’t believe anyone should convert if they don’t believe, but I also don’t believe people should reject conversion without knowing what it is they are rejecting.

Peace be with you on your journey. You are truly blessed.

 

[RyanL_s_Wife]

Vir Dei:

Hmm, do you think it was God’s plan for you to become married to your husband? If so why?

Perhaps this actually was your calling to become a Catholic. Anyway, good luck with your choice!

I KNOW it was God’s plan for Ryan and I to get married. I posted something about this on a different thread…feel free to check it out. It’s a pretty cool story. (At least I think so… Of course, I am bias.)

Here’s the thread.

But, yes, perhaps you’re right.

RyanL’s Wife

 

[MariaG]

RyanL's Wife:

I KNOW it was God’s plan for Ryan and I to get married. I posted something about this on a different thread…feel free to check it out. It’s a pretty cool story. (At least I think so… Of course, I am bias.)

Here’s the thread.

But, yes, perhaps you’re right.

RyanL’s Wife

I read the story. Obviously God has been guiding you all along.

You have said earlier, that spritual leadership is very important in your beliefs.

God brings you and Ryan together.

Ryan, who was always Catholic, discovers his faith through your questions.

But you say you can’t see whether or not God has said Yes, convert?

I think when you finally get your “aha” moment in your heart and not just your head, its going to all fall into place and you’ll wonder why you didn’t feel God hitting you with that two by four sooner!

Seriously though, I will pray that God will make it very clear to you what you are supposed to do. A good friend of mine had a similar problem. They decided to pray a novena. A novena, although a curiously Catholic thing, can be done by any Christian. Maybe you and Ryan should pray together for 9 days, asking for the answer?

I do know from the resolution of my friends problem that it truly worked out in His timing. I know yours will too.

God Bless,
Maria