Is there evidence for reincarnation?

[openmind77]

Ok. So you have answered another question for me, you believe in reincarnation, but you also believe in hell. So everyone does not reach perfection…only some people do.

It looks like you do believe in differing degrees of sin. I agree with you that there are different degrees of sin. Here’s where I might differ from you, though. Who gets to say what degrees of sin (unrepentant sin, I guess) or which sins are trivial and which are not? It seems that you think contraception is trivial…do you think we all can decide for ourselves what is trivial and what isn’t? If you think that, can’t Adolf Hitler-types decide which sins, like exterminating humans, are trivial for them? If so, then absolutely everything could become relative and trivial, couldn’t it?

Again, no offense…but why should I believe that I was once born a savage in a primitive society? And why should I believe that educated people aren’t on their first life on earth?
That just sounds so made up to my ears…seriously, not trying to be disrespectful at all…I guess I would just like to know why I should even consider that as being true?

You are probably getting frustrated with me. Could you recommend a good book/author that explains sortof the basics of reincarnation. Like for a beginner to understand…nothing over my head.

Actually I don’t believe contraception is a sin at all, but that is a separate issue.

Actually, it is not your acts (or sins!) themselves that determine where you end up, but your spiritual state on death that determines it - nobody decides this - you automatically sink to the lowest plane of existence depending on your spiritual condition. And the lowest plane is hell.

You don’t have to believe anything I say. As I said in my previous post, the Christ will be here soon and we will all know the truth.

 

[openmind77]

But Jesus Christ is different. Don’t you think? Different than anyone in Hinduism/Buddhism/Yoga. Who compares to him? I think Peter Kreeft might’ve said something along these lines, (I’ll paraphrase)…"There have only been two people who ever lived on the earth that were so amazing that people didn’t ask them who they were…but what they were. The Buddha…and he clearly said “Don’t look to me…look to what I am teaching”…and Jesus…and He clearly said, “I AM God”.

Jesus taught about Heaven and Hell and I don’t know of anyone who can compare to Him. Are you saying someone(s) in Buddhism/Hinduism displays the authority Jesus Christ did? Who?

Jesus Christ is of course special. But he is not unique.

God sends such a Teacher periodically, approximately every 2000 years. Some of the previous teachers:
10000-8000 BC Age of Leo - Hermes (Egypt)
8000-6000 BC Age of Cancer- Hercules (Greece)
6000-4000 BCAge of Gemini - Rama (India)
4000-2000 BC Age of Taurus - Mithra (Europe)
2000- 0 BC Age of Aries - Krishna (India)
0 -2000 AD Age of Pisces - Jesus

So there is far more than two (Peter Kreeft notwithstanding)

So we are due soon for another teacher. That will be the return of the Christ.

 

[JohnGerard]

This is what I don’t get. You expect to die a sinner and then do little stint in purgatory and before you know it, you are rubbing shoulders in heaven with Mother Teresa and Pope Paul? - I don’t think perfection is that easy.

Actually I don’t have any such evidence. I have just heard other people saying so.

However, we don’t have to speculate too long. The Christ will be returning to earth in less than a couple years. We will hear the truth from his very mouth before very long.

Here’s what my Church teaches: Yes, we need to become holy/perfected. You and I agree on this, I believe. Most people who try do make progress during this lifetime. They may stop stealing, or swearing or sleeping around or whatever…but yes, most of us are still sinning in some way when we die. So, purgatory is a final purification that must happen to be perfected. But we do not think that it is a small stint or an easy ticket or anything like that. The Church doesn’t teach that it is easy. As a matter of fact, we pray for the souls in purgatory for the process they are going through, for their purification, for our struggles and prayers on earth to aid them. We wouldn’t have to pray for them if it was easy. We don’t know how time works in the afterlife so we don’t know how long it might take time-wise…but being purified by God’s fire and love could be very uncomfortable for us. It’s not an easy-street. We have to be rid of all of our attachments to sin…and we might even squirm and fight that a little bit…maybe like a child will be willing to get a flu shot cause they know it will help them…but they may not like the experience and squirm and fight it a bit. But Purgatory is the ante-room to Heaven. Everyone there knows they will get to Heaven…they just need this “hot shower” first to get cleaned up and perfected. So they endure it knowing they will be better off for it.

When Christ does come again, I pray that we are both ready for His return.

 

[JohnGerard]

Jesus Christ is of course special. But he is not unique.

God sends such a Teacher periodically, approximately every 2000 years. Some of the previous teachers:
10000-8000 BC Age of Leo - Hermes (Egypt)
8000-6000 BC Age of Cancer- Hercules (Greece)
6000-4000 BCAge of Gemini - Rama (India)
4000-2000 BC Age of Taurus - Mithra (Europe)
2000- 0 BC Age of Aries - Krishna (India)
0 -2000 AD Age of Pisces - Jesus

So there is far more than two (Peter Kreeft notwithstanding)

So we are due soon for another teacher. That will be the return of the Christ.

I am not prepared to discuss those people at this time. I’ll have to look into some of that. Here are some general questions that come to mind:

Was each of those people an actual historical figure that actually walked this planet?
(I’ve heard of Hercules…but is that an actual historical figure??)

If so, did they state their purpose? (Jesus came to conquer sin and death and give us life)

I know there are a variety of stories of other resurrections…how many of them (besides Jesus) was resurrected from the grave and walked this earth again? If I remember correctly, in the story of Mithra, he resurrected into the afterlife only.

I’ll have to sign off here. Thanks for the info. I will look into those other stories, but I have to tell you that Jesus is special…AND unique. He died for our sins. Did the others? He is the “only begotten Son of God”…therefore, the others cannot be. He is fully human and fully God…were the others? He was an actual historical figure…I will check, but I do not believe all of the others were.

 

[superwimp]

Hello John

Ok…I think you touched upon one of my main questions. If we can’t remember our past lives then how can each life be a new opportunity to learn from our mistakes? We live our lives today and learn from our mistakes but only because we remember them and then do not make that mistake again (or try not to).

You said the lessons from past lives carry forward at a subconscious level and that’s how we can learn from our past lives. But how do you know that is true? How do you know lessons from past lives carry forward at a subconscious level? Is there a good reason for someone like me to believe that that is true?<<<

openmind answered this question bewtter than I could.

Is there a particular reason you think God needs to create us to preexist before our lives here on earth?<<<

If we view our lives here on earth as a learning opportunity then each of us has different needs.  Prior to our coming here we need to decide which type of experience will be best.  Except for special people like Moses or Samuel God isn't really involved in deciding which experience we choose for ourselves.

Do you mind if I ask you what you think about Jesus? He is the main difference in our beliefs…because He taught about Judgement and Heaven and Hell. And I believe Him. But I don’t recall that He taught about reincarnation.<<<

Regardless of what the church says Jesus taught that we will be judged in the same way that we judge others. We decide your own rewards and punishments. If you can’t wish your neighbor happiness after he punches you in the nose your not ready for heaven. Heaven isn’t a place. We don’t go to heaven, we grow to heaven. When Jesus was in the Garden he defines eternal life.
JN 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true
God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

With regards to Jesus not teaching reincarnation he didn’t teach any afterlife scenario. Moses talked to 40 years and didn’t find out what happens after death. God has chosen not to tell us, therefore, any people who claim to know really don’t know.

"Forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us’.

MT 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain
king, which would take account of his servants.
MT 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto
him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
MT 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him
to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment
to be made.
MT 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying,
Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
MT 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion,
and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
MT 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his
fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands
on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
MT 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him,
saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
MT 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he
should pay the debt.
MT 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were
very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
MT 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O
thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou
desiredst me:
MT 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy
fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
MT 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors,
till he should pay all that was due unto him.
MT 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye
from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

 

[JohnGerard]

I think one of our main differences is that you don’t see that Jesus taught any after life scenario, and I see that He taught about Heaven and Hell…but not reincarnation.

Matthew 25:34: “Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world…”

Matthew 25:41: “…Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;…”

Matthew 25:46 “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[openmind77]

I think one of our main differences is that you don’t see that Jesus taught any after life scenario, and I see that He taught about Heaven and Hell…but not reincarnation.

Matthew 25:34: “Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world…”

Matthew 25:41: “…Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;…”

Matthew 25:46 “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Strange that you bring up Matthew 25: 31-46. That is precisely the criteria that will be used to judge us and separate the goats from the sheep. But most people seem be fixated on the eternal punishment or eternal life and completely forget the actual criteria.

In fact, I believe the Day of Judgement has already started (maybe last year) and people are already being separated into goats and sheep (a sort of self selection process). The strange thing is that the goats are quite convinced that they are the sheep and are railing at the real sheep to correct their ways (or else).

The criteria for separation, in case some have missed it is:

• your attitude to strangers (that would be immigrants/foreigners)
• your attitude to food for the poor
• your attitude to healthcare for the sick
• your attitude to people in prison

If you look around in the western countries, the people are already divided into two groups based on these four criteria - those who want to get rid of foreigners/strangers from their community, those who want to cut food benefits to the poor, those who want to eliminate healthcare benefits for the needy and those who prefer long and hard prison sentences.

However, I think the ‘eternal punishment’ is an exaggeration - with God there is always a chance of redemption.

BTW, here is a good site to read about reincarnation and Christianity: reluctant-messenger.com/origen.html

 

[JohnGerard]

Strange that you bring up Matthew 25: 31-46. That is precisely the criteria that will be used to judge us and separate the goats from the sheep. But most people seem be fixated on the eternal punishment or eternal life and completely forget the actual criteria.

In fact, I believe the Day of Judgement has already started (maybe last year) and people are already being separated into goats and sheep (a sort of self selection process). The strange thing is that the goats are quite convinced that they are the sheep and are railing at the real sheep to correct their ways (or else).

The criteria for separation, in case some have missed it is:

• your attitude to strangers (that would be immigrants/foreigners)
• your attitude to food for the poor
• your attitude to healthcare for the sick
• your attitude to people in prison

If you look around in the western countries, the people are already divided into two groups based on these four criteria - those who want to get rid of foreigners/strangers from their community, those who want to cut food benefits to the poor, those who want to eliminate healthcare benefits for the needy and those who prefer long and hard prison sentences.

However, I think the ‘eternal punishment’ is an exaggeration - with God there is always a chance of redemption.

BTW, here is a good site to read about reincarnation and Christianity: reluctant-messenger.com/origen.html

Hey openmind77,

I agree with you about the criteria but I think I’d summarize it this way. The two greatest commandments given to us by Jesus were to 1: love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength and to 2. love our neighbor as ourself.

I would say the sheep meet the criteria of loving God and show that love of Him by their obedience to Him in loving others through the specific ways/criteria you mentioned. The goats don’t love others and therefore, don’t really love God. I also agree that we are basically showing if we are sheep or goats by how we live our lives on earth.

I disagree that the Day of Judgement has already started, though. Verse 31 says that this will take place “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, the He will sit on His glorious throne.” I believe that has yet to happen.

I agree again with you that there is always a chance of redemption with God, He wants everyone to be saved. However, we cannot do those things mentioned once we die so we have this life to show Him we love Him. We have this life to love others. Then there is a judgement, and then a final judgement at His Second Coming.

I have a hard time seeing eternal punishment being an exaggeration. I don’t really see a reason to see that. I wish it was. But I can’t honestly say it makes sense to think Jesus was exaggerating.

The issues you mentioned above are certainly divisive in the West. However, this “sorting” of people will be done on an individual basis. It almost seems as though you are hinting at political party lines in the U.S. Maybe I’m reading that into what you said, but I would say that it would be unfair and unwise to say a certain political party is the “sheep” and a different political party is the “goats”.

Thanks for the link. I will read it.

I notice that it references Origen and I’ve already read a little bit about him so I might have a link for you to read as well.

Thanks.

 

[kimg901]

@ JohnG. What was the purpose of Christ if we are to be reincarnated? This is a question I always asked myself and share when its brought up.

 

[JohnGerard]

Hey openmind77,

The link you suggested said that Origen was a believer in reincarnation. I’m not sure that that is true. I will look around at the site some more. In the meantime, here are some links to info that you might find interesting about him and reincarnation:

catholic.com/tracts/reincarnation
catholic.com/blog/jimmy-akin/reincarnation-in-the-bible
catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/is-reincarnation-biblical

 

[JohnGerard]

@ JohnG. What was the purpose of Christ if we are to be reincarnated? This is a question I always asked myself and share when its brought up.

Good question. I was thinking about that a little bit myself when openmind said a new teacher comes along about every 2,000 years. I was thinking “What good does it have to have a teacher come along…like, say, Jesus…if we don’t bother to listen to what He says about life, death, heaven, hell, God, etc. What good is a teacher if we don’t have to listen to Him?”

 

[openmind77]

…What good is a teacher if we don’t have to listen to Him?"

You have free will. You can choose whether you listen to a teacher or not. The important thing they teach is always about how to live your life on earth. The stuff about heaven and hell and the afterlife is just information.

Last time the Christ came he taught about love (love for your fellow humans even your enemies) - that was his purpose (reincarnation does not negate that purpose). Next time the Christ comes the teachings will probably be about justice (the Pope has been speaking about social justice a lot already).

All the teachings are important, but you have a choice whether to listen or not.

 

[JohnGerard]

You have free will. You can choose whether you listen to a teacher or not. The important thing they teach is always about how to live your life on earth. The stuff about heaven and hell and the afterlife is just information.

Last time the Christ came he taught about love (love for your fellow humans even your enemies) - that was his purpose (reincarnation does not negate that purpose). Next time the Christ comes the teachings will probably be about justice (the Pope has been speaking about social justice a lot already).

All the teachings are important, but you have a choice whether to listen or not.

Yes, we all have a choice whether to listen to teachings or not. Yes we have free will.

But didn’t Jesus teach us about how to live our lives on earth precisely because that directly affects our afterlives as far as Heaven and Hell? The stuff about Heaven and Hell and the afterlife is some very important information.

Jesus did come to teach us about love…but His mission was bigger than that. He was put to death on our behalf to atone for our sins and bridge the gap between mankind and God.

The next time Jesus Christ comes it will be to Judge the world.

 

[superwimp]

@ JohnG. What was the purpose of Christ if we are to be reincarnated? This is a question I always asked myself and share when its brought up.

Hello king
The understanding I have is from the book of acts. It contains many sermons given to potential converts. None of the sermons contained any promise of going to heaven. The word saved referred to being saved from sin. As a result of Jesus death the world was given the Holy ghost.

 

[kimg901]

Good question. I was thinking about that a little bit myself when openmind said a new teacher comes along about every 2,000 years. I was thinking “What good does it have to have a teacher come along…like, say, Jesus…if we don’t bother to listen to what He says about life, death, heaven, hell, God, etc. What good is a teacher if we don’t have to listen to Him?”

Very true sir, very true.

 

[kimg901]

Hello king

 The understanding I have is from the book of acts.  It contains many sermons given to potential converts.  None of the sermons contained any promise of going to heaven.  The word saved referred to being saved from sin.  As a result of Jesus death the world was given the Holy ghost.

I’ll have to read Acts again. I’ve been a bad boy and have not read my bible in some time. While the sermons may have not mentioned heaven (as per your statement) they also don’t mention reincarnation if I remember correctly. So again what purpose was there for Christ if we are to sin over and over again in a new body? He would have died for nothing. All of what He did was for naught then.

 

[superwimp]

Hello King,
As I mentioned in the above post as a result of Jesus the holy ghost came into the world. Please read acts for the account. Receiving the holy ghost was the claim that was made by the apostles. Now the claim is going to heaven.

 

[JohnGerard]

Hello King,

As I mentioned in the above post as a result of Jesus the holy ghost came into the world.  Please read acts for the account.  Receiving the holy ghost was the claim that was made by the apostles.  Now the claim is going to heaven.

Hey superwimp,

Yes. I agree. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit after He ascended.

But that is not all that He did while on Earth. If we are going to take that seriously from the Book of Acts, shouldn’t we also take the other portions of the Book of Acts seriously? If we don’t, we are just picking-and-choosing what parts of the Book of Acts we want to believe and what parts we don’t. As a matter of fact, why would we pick just the Book of Acts? Why not the rest of the New Testament, I wonder?

At any rate…if the Book of Acts teaches the coming of the Holy Spirit and it seems that is why you believe it…to be consistent you need to believe in Heaven and Hell based on the Book of Acts. And I don’t believe the Book of Acts gives us any reason to believe in reincarnation:

1. Acts 3:22: “Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet from your brethren as He raised me up. You shall listen to Him in whatever He tells you.’”

Contextually, we can see that this is referring to Jesus. The Book of Acts tells us we should listen to Him.

1. Jesus taught about Heaven and Hell in Matthew 25:46: “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
2. Jesus also commanded His followers to “…make disciples of all nations…teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you…” (Matthew 28:19-20)

So if you are going to believe that the Holy Ghost came because of Jesus and you see that in the Book of Acts…don’t you also have to believe what Acts 3 says about listening to Jesus? And don’t we find out what He taught through what the Apostles taught and recorded in the rest of the New Testament?

In other words, according to Acts…anything Jesus taught we need to listen to and the rest of the New Testament as well as the teaching authority of the Church He established helps us to know those things.

And those sources, including Christ’s own words, pretty clearly teach us about Heaven.

 

[superwimp]

Hello John,

>>>As a matter of fact, why would we pick just the Book of Acts? Why not the rest of the New Testament, I wonder?<<<

For purposes of debate I'm willing to accept all of the NT and OT as authoratative.  The book of acts is of extra value because it contains many sermons given to diverse groups who are potential converts. What were they promised as compared to what is promised today.  

>>>Contextually, we can see that this is referring to Jesus. The Book of Acts tells us we should listen to Him.<<<

OK I'll listen to Jesus.

>>> Jesus taught about Heaven and Hell in Matthew 25:46: "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."<<<

Since we are listening to Jesus and since he defined what he meant by eternal life shouldn't we use his definition rather than some present day definition?

JN 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true
God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
To clarify our disagreement you and most of Christianity believe heaven and hell are actual places and I don't. Using the above definition (given by Jesus) the fact that we are now in a physical body isn't preventing us from having eternal life right now. There is no place God can put us that will give us eternal life and there no place he can put us to prevent us from having eternal life. Because the HS was given we can have eternal life while on earth.

 

[Simca]

The Christ will be returning to earth in less than a couple years. We will hear the truth from his very mouth before very long.

Not to de-rail this thread…but “The Return of the Christ” is not the same person that Christians believe in as Jesus. We don’t believe that Jesus is only one of the teachers which the “ascended masters” have sent in order to lead mankind, but we believe that Jesus is God himself, and as such, will return to earth.

(I hope this doesn’t sound disrespectful…I don’t mean it that way at all. )