Is there evidence for reincarnation?

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JohnGerard said:
Just curious. Does anyone know what kind of evidence there is for reincarnation? I mean, is there something more than stuff like “I remember in my dream that I was this or that in another lifetime.”

I personally do not believe in reincarnation, but I find myself curious as to whether or not there is any solid evidence that supports it. I guess I’m wondering because I’ve been bumping into people who believe in it and I wonder why they do. I haven’t had the opportunity to ask them why they do yet.

Thanks if you can help.
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There is serious scientific research. Look up Dr. Ian Stevenson. He studied hundreds or thousands of cases, mostly children with past life memories. Many cases included physical marks correlating to wounds from past lifes and other interesting details.
 
superwimp said:
Hello John,
Code: 
>>>As a matter of fact, why would we pick just the Book of Acts? Why not the rest of the New Testament, I wonder?<<<

For purposes of debate I'm willing to accept all of the NT and OT as authoratative.  The book of acts is of extra value because it contains many sermons given to diverse groups who are potential converts. What were they promised as compared to what is promised today.  

>>>Contextually, we can see that this is referring to Jesus. The Book of Acts tells us we should listen to Him.<<<

OK I'll listen to Jesus.

>>> Jesus taught about Heaven and Hell in Matthew 25:46: "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."<<<

Since we are listening to Jesus and since he defined what he meant by eternal life shouldn't we use his definition rather than some present day definition?
JN 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true
God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Code: 
To clarify our disagreement you and most of Christianity believe heaven and hell are actual places and I don't.  Using the above definition (given by Jesus) the fact that we are now in a physical body isn't preventing us from having eternal life right now.  There is no place God can put us that will give us eternal life and there no place he can put us to prevent us from having eternal life.  Because the HS was given we can have eternal life while on earth.
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The Catholic stance, from what I’ve been taught, is that Jesus died on the cross and descended into hell, where there were souls trapped there waiting for his arrival. In that sense, Jesus was the ‘redeemer’, who initiated the opening to the pathway for eternal friendship with God in heaven… But this is a Catholic POV, and I’m not sure where exactly it’s found in the bible. Its the “Apostles Creed”, a Catholic prayer said during the Mass.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a5p1.htm
annusfidei.va/content/novaevangelizatio/en/annus-fidei/professione-di-fede.html

On another note, I find it interesting -the similarities between Edgar Cayce’s A.R.E. and Hubbard’s Scientology sharing beliefs in reincarnation, although Hubbards interpretation seems to include past lives further back as other forms of alien life. I’d like to learn more about the similarities and the differences.
 
He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him – He who is both their God and the son of Eve. . . “I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead.”
ucatholic.com/catechism/635/
 
JohnGerard said:
Just curious. Does anyone know what kind of evidence there is for reincarnation? I mean, is there something more than stuff like “I remember in my dream that I was this or that in another lifetime.”

I personally do not believe in reincarnation, but I find myself curious as to whether or not there is any solid evidence that supports it. I guess I’m wondering because I’ve been bumping into people who believe in it and I wonder why they do. I haven’t had the opportunity to ask them why they do yet.

Thanks if you can help.
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I think Dianetics is the closest anyone has gone in building any type of “evidence” in distinguishing the difference between the everlasting soul and the physical body -which leads to the thought of reincarnation.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dianetics
 
TEPO said:
He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him – He who is both their God and the son of Eve. . . “I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead.”
ucatholic.com/catechism/635/
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Hello tepo,
The problem I have with the above claims is Moses spoke with God for forty years and God didn't provide any information on the afterlife. Jesus spoke in parables on the afterlife. It's difficult for me to believe that he is now revealing all this stuff to the Catholic church.
 
No.

Reincarnation is a lie that is somewhat popular today, I suppose.
 
superwimp said:
Hello tepo,
Code: 
 The problem I have with the above claims is Moses spoke with God for forty years and God didn't provide any information on the afterlife.  Jesus spoke in parables on the afterlife.  It's difficult for me to believe that he is now revealing all this stuff to the Catholic church.
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Completely understandable, as there were many Jews who have historically had no faith in an afterlife. Of course there are several different religions who believe in reincarnation, just as there are several who believe in heaven and hell. Historically, a common link between the two, I think would be Zoroastrianism, which was, I believe, filled with the Holy Spirit. The same Holy Spirit that was present during the Creative Act.

…Zoroastrianism’s influence on Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and You.
op-ed.the-environmentalist.org/2007/04/zoroastrianisms-influence-on-judaism.html?m=1
 
JohnGerard said:
Here’s what my Church teaches: Yes, we need to become holy/perfected. You and I agree on this, I believe. Most people who try do make progress during this lifetime. They may stop stealing, or swearing or sleeping around or whatever…but yes, most of us are still sinning in some way when we die. So, purgatory is a final purification that must happen to be perfected. But we do not think that it is a small stint or an easy ticket or anything like that. The Church doesn’t teach that it is easy. As a matter of fact, we pray for the souls in purgatory for the process they are going through, for their purification, for our struggles and prayers on earth to aid them. We wouldn’t have to pray for them if it was easy. We don’t know how time works in the afterlife so we don’t know how long it might take time-wise…but being purified by God’s fire and love could be very uncomfortable for us. It’s not an easy-street. We have to be rid of all of our attachments to sin…and we might even squirm and fight that a little bit…maybe like a child will be willing to get a flu shot cause they know it will help them…but they may not like the experience and squirm and fight it a bit. But Purgatory is the ante-room to Heaven. Everyone there knows they will get to Heaven…they just need this “hot shower” first to get cleaned up and perfected. So they endure it knowing they will be better off for it.

When Christ does come again, I pray that we are both ready for His return.
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What kind of God would use torture to improve his people? I don’t want to know your God. :eek:
 
eazyduzit said:
What kind of God would use torture to improve his people? I don’t want to know your God. :eek:
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Hey easyduzit.

I didn’t say anything about “torture”. God is a loving Father and doesn’t “torture” His children. And I never said that… you are putting words in my mouth. I said it would be uncomfortable and no easy thing. Just like being disciplined is. That is what I meant.

Just like fathers on earth, He will discipline us and allow us to suffer for our own good. I don’t think He brings upon us the suffering we endure…we do that to ourselves due to our sinfulness. The following verses speak to suffering or being disciplined…but that doesn’t mean it is “torture”:

1 Corinthians 3:15: “If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” That is something that happens but it is only a result of the man’s own actions. But notice that it is God’s fire that does the testing if you read the surrounding context. And that doesn’t sound like “torture” to me…but it also doesn’t sound pleasant. It sounds like it could be uncomfortable, (the man “suffers” loss)… That is what I was referring to.

Also, being disciplined by our earthly fathers isn’t very fun. It isn’t “torture” (although I’ll bet many a teenager thinks of it that way at times 🙂 …but it can be uncomfortable to deal with. But our fathers do that for us because they love us…not to “torture” us. And we know that God disciplines those He loves:

Proverbs 3:11-12: “My son, do not despise the Lord’s discipline or be weary of His reproof, for the Lord reproves him whom He loves, as a father the son in whom he delights.”

A child getting a flu shot might wonder why their parents are letting them be “tortured”. But they are not doing that. They are helping the child…the child just doesn’t see it that way.

If you are Pentacostal, I believe we do know and believe in the same God.
 
superwimp said:
Hello John,
Code: 
>>>As a matter of fact, why would we pick just the Book of Acts? Why not the rest of the New Testament, I wonder?<<<

For purposes of debate I'm willing to accept all of the NT and OT as authoratative.  The book of acts is of extra value because it contains many sermons given to diverse groups who are potential converts. What were they promised as compared to what is promised today.  

>>>Contextually, we can see that this is referring to Jesus. The Book of Acts tells us we should listen to Him.<<<

OK I'll listen to Jesus.

>>> Jesus taught about Heaven and Hell in Matthew 25:46: "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."<<<

Since we are listening to Jesus and since he defined what he meant by eternal life shouldn't we use his definition rather than some present day definition?
JN 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true
God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Code: 
To clarify our disagreement you and most of Christianity believe heaven and hell are actual places and I don't.  Using the above definition (given by Jesus) the fact that we are now in a physical body isn't preventing us from having eternal life right now.  There is no place God can put us that will give us eternal life and there no place he can put us to prevent us from having eternal life.  Because the HS was given we can have eternal life while on earth.
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Hey superwimp,

Since we both agree we should be listening to Jesus and His definition of eternal life…we should look at more than just one verse where He addresses it. That is just picking and choosing again and I don’t agree with that. I agree with John 17 that knowing God and Jesus Christ is a part of eternal life. However, there are over a dozen other passages where He addresses eternal life. Here’s a couple:

In Matthew 19:16 and following, when Jesus is asked what a man must do to have eternal life, He responds by saying “keep the commandments”. That is because if we know and love God and Jesus, we will obey them and keep the commandments.

John 6:54 “He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life.” To know Jesus is to obey Jesus.

John 12:25 “…he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life…” We have to love God above all else.

Romans 2:7: “…to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;…” We have to show that we know and love God through our actions.

To sum up…I agree with you about Jesus’ definition of eternal life. But there is more to it than that as the above verses show. Also, I agree with you absolutely that we begin to participate in eternal life and God’s Kingdom while we are here on earth to the extent that we know, love, and obey Him while here on earth. But eternal life is also spoken of as being something to be “hoped for” (future tense). So we say that we are participating in eternal life here on earth…but it doesn’t come to completion for us while on earth. We are getting a taste of things to come but we don’t see those things clearly…it’s a sampling of the good things to come.

Also, I think our understanding of Heaven and Hell are closer than you think. Here is a quotes from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) :

CCC 1033: “To die in mortal sin…means remaining separated from Him forever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell”.” Hell is a state of being separated from God. Heaven is a state of being in communion with God. Whether those are actual physical places or just the state we find ourselves in could be debated. I think it is a both/and situation based on other words Jesus spoke about angels being “cast into” the everlasting fire, etc.
 
corefaith said:
There is serious scientific research. Look up Dr. Ian Stevenson. He studied hundreds or thousands of cases, mostly children with past life memories. Many cases included physical marks correlating to wounds from past lifes and other interesting details.
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Thanks for the name, corefaith. I think that is the second time I’ve seen Dr. Stevenson come up. I will look into his stuff.
 
superwimp said:
Hello John,
Code: 
To clarify our disagreement you and most of Christianity believe heaven and hell are actual places and I don't.  Using the above definition (given by Jesus) the fact that we are now in a physical body isn't preventing us from having eternal life right now.  There is no place God can put us that will give us eternal life and there no place he can put us to prevent us from having eternal life.  Because the HS was given we can have eternal life while on earth.
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Hey superwimp,

While Jesus often spoke in parables, He didn’t do that exclusively. Below are two passages that seem to indicate that Heaven is a place where people are in communion with God and Hell is a place where people are separated from God:

John 14:2 : “In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?”

In Revelation 19,20,21 a “lake of fire” is a place that Satan and others are cast into for eternity.

Both Heaven and Hell are conditions of “eternal life” if you use the term to mean something like “eternally existing”. But biblically “eternal life” is used in a way that connotes union with God, while “eternal death” (even though those people are still “alive” or exist) is used to connote separation from God, which is Hell.
 
Hello John,

you to someone>>>I agree that very few people can become perfect after just one life and that we do make progress (well, some do some don’t, I suppose). However, we believe perfection can be attained after death without needing another life…that’s why Jesus could teach about Hell. Everyone doesn’t reach perfection. I sure wish we all did, but Jesus didn’t think so.<<<

you to easyduzit>>>I didn’t say anything about “torture”. God is a loving Father and doesn’t “torture” His children. And I never said that… you are putting words in my mouth. I said it would be uncomfortable and no easy thing. Just like being disciplined is. That is what I meant.

Just like fathers on earth, He will discipline us and allow us to suffer for our own good. I don’t think He brings upon us the suffering we endure…we do that to ourselves due to our sinfulness. The following verses speak to suffering or being disciplined…but that doesn’t mean it is “torture”:<<<

So my understanding of the way you are describing purgatory is we go somewhere to be disciplined. This discipline is designed to perfect us. From the 1st paragraph you believe our life on earth can be beneficial in perfecting us. Let’s say that I believe in purgatory too. Is there some reason why our present life wouldn’t be part of our purgatory? Why wouldn’t the earth be used for purgatory purposes?
 
superwimp said:
Hello John,

So my understanding of the way you are describing purgatory is we go somewhere to be disciplined. This discipline is designed to perfect us. From the 1st paragraph you believe our life on earth can be beneficial in perfecting us. Let’s say that I believe in purgatory too. Is there some reason why our present life wouldn’t be part of our purgatory? Why wouldn’t the earth be used for purgatory purposes?
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Hey superwimp,

The answer to your first question is nope. But the common usage of the term Purgatory refers to a purifying process that takes place between death and glorification. But really, it is a process of removing all of our attachments to sin which can and certainly does take place in people’s lives while here on earth. This results in a growth of holiness or a growth toward perfection.

Here is a paragraph I found in a Catholic Answers tract entitled “Purgatory”:

Augustine said, in The City of God, that “temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment” (21:13). It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: “I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper” (Luke 12:59).

Sortof along those lines in a way, Dr. Peter Kreeft has said (and maybe he was quoting someone else…I don’t recall) that this world is one big “saint-making machine”.

So the closer we are to God, the less attached we will be to sin. Some people can accomplish this while on earth…some of the great saints and martyrs, I suppose did. And some people don’t quite get there but are heading in the right direction getting closer to God and less attached to sin.

Side note (and you don’t have to answer this if you don’t want to, I totally understand): I haven’t reread all of our posts but I think more than once your ideas have been very close to the Catholic teaching. It just makes me wonder if you were ever Catholic or Christian before?
 
Hello John,
Code: 
For some reason I only noticed your response this morning.

 >>>Side note (and you don't have to answer this if you don't want to, I totally understand): I haven't reread all of our posts but I think more than once your ideas have been very close to the Catholic teaching. It just makes me wonder if you were ever Catholic or Christian before? <<<

I was raised as a Catholic and attended Catholic grade school up to 8th grade.  When I was about 25 I converted to LDS (Mormon) and there the ones who started me on a (which church is right path).  A few years later I left them and joined Church of Christ (temple lot) which is an offshoot of the original Mormon church.  In the early 80's I became interested in the Edgar Cayce material and my beliefs are mostly aligned with his teachings.  Any similarities you find will be similarities between the EC readings and Catholic theology.
Whether or not I am a Christian or not depends on how it is defined. The overwhelming definition is that he is savior, I don’t see him as savior, therefore, I choose not to claim I am a Christian.

Since were listening to Jesus, he taught that we would be judged according to how we judged others. How does that fit with Augustine’s teachings on purgatory?
 
superwimp said:
Hello John,

Since were listening to Jesus, he taught that we would be judged according to how we judged others. How does that fit with Augustine’s teachings on purgatory?
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Hey superwimp.

I will try to answer your question but I’m struggling to understand it a little bit. Purgatory and judgment are related but not the same thing. And there is more than one judgment. Basically, a purging of attachment to sin is a judgment made by Jesus that says we are not yet perfected and ready to enter Heaven… yet. Augustine is referring to the judgments that all men will experience after death and he is saying that the purging, or purifying that we experience will occur before that final judgment.

Jesus tells us about judgment that will happen in Matthew 25 and Revelation 20, for example. This judgment will come to all of us.

Here is some information I found about Matthew 7.

Credit here will be given to Scott Hahn and Curtis Mitch for the notes on page 18 in the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible which state: “Jesus’ teaching on judgment is two-sided. He condemns judging other’s faults (7:1-2). We are incapable of judging with fairness and accuracy since God alone knows the heart (Proverbs 21:2, Luke 16:15). However, Jesus commands us to exercise critical discernment (7:6). Examination is necessary to avoid profaning what is holy (7:6) and embracing what is false (7:15).”

I’m not sure if I’m on track with you at this point.

By the way, I appreciate your honesty and candidness. I haven’t had a chance to read EC’s writings. I will look them up when I find some time.

John
 
Hello John,
By the way, I appreciate your honesty and candidness. I haven’t had a chance to read EC’s writings. I will look them up when I find some time. <<<
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The best book would be “There is a River” which is a biography of his life,

Matt 25 starts out with parables and then it goes into detail about being judged about how you treat others. As a side note EC gave life readings for people telling them about there past lives. The people gained in some lives and lost in others and it was usually based on how we treated each other. I agree with Jesus that we will be judged in how we treat others.

My personal understanding of Karma (not necessarily based on EC readings) is it operates for both good or bad. Suppose you just had a birthday and nobody said happy birthday. People who knew it was your birthday didn’t care. Now your at work and it’s someone else’s birthday. Everyone who goes past him wishes him a happy birthday. If you are glad that he is receiving the attention, that he deserves to have the attention that you didn’t receive, then the law of karma will work in your favor in the future. Coincidences will work out in your favor.

Rev 20 discusses a special 1000 year time period. You’ll need to go into more detail of what I am supposed to see in this chapter. A person can believe in reincarnation and still believe that there will eventually be an end to the opportunity to reincarnate and a final judgment. All that reincarnation means is that this last judgment will be based on more than one life time.

When you use the term purging in the sense of us being purged I get the picture that we are merely recipients of purging with no involvement in the process other than being the recipients. If this is the case I don’t see how this purging will take away any attachments.

On page 2 of this discussion I included a line from the lords prayer and from Matthew 18. He’s basically saying we will be judged on how we judge others. If as you say there are multiple judgments then I don’t see why they wouldn’t all be based on the same criteria which Jesus gave.
 
superwimp said:
Hello John,
By the way, I appreciate your honesty and candidness. I haven’t had a chance to read EC’s writings. I will look them up when I find some time. <<<
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Hey superwimp,

Thanks for the recommendation of the book. I do like to read so I will look into that when I get a chance.

My only point with Revelation 20 (verse 11 and following) is that we are all going to be judged…even if we live a completely isolated hermit-like life. Whether we judge others appropriately, inappropriately, or not at all while we live on earth…we all will be judged by how we lived our lives. I agree with you that even though there are multiple judgments, the criteria given by Jesus remains the same. But Purgatory and judgments are not the same thing. (thinking back to Augustine’s comments).

I find that it can be difficult to talk about Purgatory just like it can be to talk about Heaven or Hell or alot of things because we haven’t directly experienced those things. We have hints and clues, etc. but our understanding is limited. At any rate, if I go to the dentist to remove an infected tooth, all I have to do is lie there in the chair and let the dentist pull it. I have no involvement in the process other than being the recipient. A willing recipient because the tooth hurt, but the dentist purges me of the tooth which I can’t do myself,even though I may desire to. Purgatory could be a similar process…only not a physical one. I could be a willing recipient (out of love for Him and a desire for complete unity with Him) and just be there and the fire of God’s love could purge me of any disordered desires I have (attachments to sin), which I cannot do myself, even though I may desire to. God could be my spiritual dentist.

I do not understand how the law of karma can be true. How can the law of karma work in my favor (or against me) unless it KNOWS that it needs to? In other words, it would have to have an intellect and a will…it would have to be a person…wouldn’t it? It would have to first have to know if it should work in my favor or not and then choose to do so.

Here is a definition of karma that I found (although, I bet there are lots of variations of the definition):

“NOUN
(in Hinduism and Buddhism) the sum of a person’s actions in this and previous states of existence, viewed as deciding their fate in future existences.
Powered by Oxford Dictionaries · © Oxford University Press”

I do not understand at all how anything can “decide my fate” without having an intellect and a will with which to do the “deciding”.

Also, most people will agree that Jesus was a good man at the very least. Did karma take a day off when He was crucified?
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JohnGerard said:
…
“NOUN
(in Hinduism and Buddhism) the sum of a person’s actions in this and previous states of existence, viewed as deciding their fate in future existences.
Powered by Oxford Dictionaries · © Oxford University Press”

I do not understand at all how anything can “decide my fate” without having an intellect and a will with which to do the “deciding”.

Also, most people will agree that Jesus was a good man at the very least. Did karma take a day off when He was crucified?
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Karma is a natural law. Like the law of gravity or laws of motion. It does not have a will, it just operates to balance all your past good and bad deeds with appropriate consequences in the future. It is the person who commits these actions is the one who decides.

Karma will not stop you from exercising your free will. Jesus already knew about his crucifixion and decided to go though with it - it was his choice.
 
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