Is there evidence for reincarnation?

[superwimp]

Hello John,

>>>I find that it can be difficult to talk about Purgatory just like it can be to talk about Heaven or Hell or alot of things because we haven't directly experienced those things. We have hints and clues, etc. but our understanding is limited. At any rate, if I go to the dentist to remove an infected tooth, all I have to do is lie there in the chair and let the dentist pull it. I have no involvement in the process other than being the recipient. A willing recipient because the tooth hurt, but the dentist purges me of the tooth which I can't do myself,even though I may desire to. Purgatory could be a similar process...only not a physical one. I could be a willing recipient (out of love for Him and a desire for complete unity with Him) and just be there and the fire of God's love could purge me of any disordered desires I have (attachments to sin), which I cannot do myself, even though I may desire to. God could be my spiritual dentist.<<<

If when you were in the waiting room, suppose I did a good deed and then went in to the dentist and told him I was offering my good deed up so that you wouldn’t have to suffer as much (indulgences). If purgatory is as you described then indulgences shouldn’t matter.

I do not understand how the law of karma can be true. How can the law of karma work in my favor (or against me) unless it KNOWS that it needs to? In other words, it would have to have an intellect and a will…it would have to be a person…wouldn’t it? It would have to first have to know if it should work in my favor or not and then choose to do so. <<<

I’m hoping you’ve seen a few nature movies so lets apply the same logic to instinct. A penguin lives a normal life until a certain age and then there must be a person inside him to have him start a complicated process of creating offspring. After a hen lays an egg there must be a person inside her telling her to sit on her egg instead of looking for food.

People set up karmic patterns and those patterns naturally play themselves out as coincidences good and bad. Her is a few coincidences from the bible.

GEN 24:12 And he said O LORD God of my master Abraham, I praythee, send me good speed this day, and show kindness unto my master
Abraham.
GEN 24:13 Behold, I stand here by the well of water; and the daughters
of the men of the city come out to draw water:
GEN 24:14 And let it come to pass, that the damsel to whom I shall
say, Let down thy pitcher, I pray thee, that I may drink; and she shall
say, Drink, and I will give thy camels drink also: let the same be she
that thou hast appointed for thy servant Isaac; and thereby shall I
know that thou hast showed kindness unto my master.
GEN 24:15 And it came to pass, before he had done speaking, that,
behold, Rebekah came out, who was born to Bethuel, son of Milcah, the
wife of Nahor, Abraham’s brother, with her pitcher upon her shoulder.

JUDG 1:6 But Adonibezek fled; and they pursued after him, and caught
him, and cut off his thumbs and his great toes.
JUDG 1:7 And Adonibezek said, Threescore and ten kings, having their
thumbs and their great toes cut off, gathered their meat under my
table: as I have done, so God hath requited me. And they brought him
to Jerusalem, and there he died.

2KINGS 8:5 And it came to pass, as he was telling the king how he had
restored a dead body to life, that, behold, the woman, whose son he
had restored to life, cried to the king for her house and for her land.
And Gehazi said, My lord, O king, this is the woman, and this is her son,
whom Elisha restored to life.
2KINGS 8:6 And when the king asked the woman, she told him. So the
king appointed unto her a certain officer, saying, Restore all that was
hers, and all the fruits of the field since the day that she left the land,
even until now.

>>>Also, most people will agree that Jesus was a good man at the very least. Did karma take a day off when He was crucified? <<<

The reason for the crucifixion of Jesus as compared to some other means of accomplishing his mission would be a matter of conjecture for us since we don’t have all the information.

 

[JohnGerard]

Hello John,

If when you were in the waiting room, suppose I did a good deed and then went in to the dentist and told him I was offering my good deed up so that you wouldn’t have to suffer as much (indulgences). If purgatory is as you described then indulgences shouldn’t matter.

I’m hoping you’ve seen a few nature movies so lets apply the same logic to instinct. A penguin lives a normal life until a certain age and then there must be a person inside him to have him start a complicated process of creating offspring. After a hen lays an egg there must be a person inside her telling her to sit on her egg instead of looking for food.

People set up karmic patterns and those patterns naturally play themselves out as coincidences good and bad. Her is a few coincidences from the bible.

GEN 24:12 And he said O LORD God of my master Abraham, I praythee, send me good speed this day, and show kindness unto my master
Abraham.
GEN 24:13 Behold, I stand here by the well of water; and the daughters
of the men of the city come out to draw water:
GEN 24:14 And let it come to pass, that the damsel to whom I shall
say, Let down thy pitcher, I pray thee, that I may drink; and she shall
say, Drink, and I will give thy camels drink also: let the same be she
that thou hast appointed for thy servant Isaac; and thereby shall I
know that thou hast showed kindness unto my master.
GEN 24:15 And it came to pass, before he had done speaking, that,
behold, Rebekah came out, who was born to Bethuel, son of Milcah, the
wife of Nahor, Abraham’s brother, with her pitcher upon her shoulder.

JUDG 1:6 But Adonibezek fled; and they pursued after him, and caught
him, and cut off his thumbs and his great toes.
JUDG 1:7 And Adonibezek said, Threescore and ten kings, having their
thumbs and their great toes cut off, gathered their meat under my
table: as I have done, so God hath requited me. And they brought him
to Jerusalem, and there he died.

2KINGS 8:5 And it came to pass, as he was telling the king how he had
restored a dead body to life, that, behold, the woman, whose son he
had restored to life, cried to the king for her house and for her land.
And Gehazi said, My lord, O king, this is the woman, and this is her son,
whom Elisha restored to life.
2KINGS 8:6 And when the king asked the woman, she told him. So the
king appointed unto her a certain officer, saying, Restore all that was
hers, and all the fruits of the field since the day that she left the land,
even until now.

>>>Also, most people will agree that Jesus was a good man at the very least. Did karma take a day off when He was crucified? <<<

The reason for the crucifixion of Jesus as compared to some other means of accomplishing his mission would be a matter of conjecture for us since we don’t have all the information.

Hey superwimp,

Yes, our prayers for those in purgatory are for their perfection so that they may enter fully into communion with God. Yes, we pray for their experience of purgatory to end. But we don’t know exactly how that all works. It may be that our prayers benefit them by easing some of what they are experiencing (like an extra shot of novacain) or by quickening the process (the dentist works faster) or whatever. I don’t know. The analogy isn’t great because in one case it is a purely a physical situation, in purgatory it is not. Indulgences and our prayers for others do matter.

The penguin doesn’t have to have a person inside of them to do the things you described because those things are not moral judgments. The penguin can just do what it is meant to do living on instinct. The law of gravity is not a person and can just do what it does…it doesn’t make moral judgments. But it seems to me that in order for karma to decide what I will experience in my life (good or bad)…it has to know what I’ve done (good or bad)…and it has to decide what I will experience next. It seems to me that it has to make moral judgments about my actions. And it seems to me that that requires an intellect and a will…a person.

Otherwise, couldn’t we also say that the law of gravity knows my deeds…good or bad as well? But it doesn’t. It isn’t a person and can’t make moral judgments.

By the way, even if I were to accept karma and it’s role…who decides what constitutes “good” deeds versus “bad” deeds? What is the standard of measure that is used? Do we all get to decide that for ourselves?

Honestly, it makes much more sense to me to believe what Jesus said about life, death, Heaven, and Hell. He proved His authority by rising from the grave. He didn’t teach about reincarnation or karma. Also, it also makes much more sense to me to believe that God is a person and the coincidences that you mentioned are examples of Him interacting with the world He created. He is a loving Father that cares about everyone…that makes more sense to me than karmic patterns and coincidences. I think the evidence for Jesus Christ and His life and teachings considerably outweighs evidence for karma and reincarnation.

By the way, what do you think the mission of Jesus was that He was trying to accomplish?

 

[superwimp]

Hello John,

Yes, our prayers for those in purgatory are for their perfection so that they may enter fully into communion with God. Yes, we pray for their experience of purgatory to end. But we don’t know exactly how that all works. It may be that our prayers benefit them by easing some of what they are experiencing (like an extra shot of novacain) or by quickening the process (the dentist works faster) or whatever. I don’t know. The analogy isn’t great because in one case it is a purely a physical situation, in purgatory it is not. Indulgences and our prayers for others do matter.<<<

The problem isn't that we don't know how it works, but that purgatory and indulgences are incoherent with each other.  If God could do the purgatory stuff with less (pain, time, or whatever) why does he need indulgences from other people?  Why do you believe in purgatory?

But it seems to me that in order for karma to decide what I will experience in my life (good or bad)…it has to know what I’ve done (good or bad)…and it has to decide what I will experience next. It seems to me that it has to make moral judgments about my actions. And it seems to me that that requires an intellect and a will…a person.

By the way, even if I were to accept karma and it’s role…who decides what constitutes “good” deeds versus “bad” deeds? What is the standard of measure that is used? Do we all get to decide that for ourselves?<<<

Yes we get to decide it when we deal with others.  The king decided what was good when he cut off the toes of the other kings.  Do we wish for the success of others?  Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.

Honestly, it makes much more sense to me to believe what Jesus said about life, death, Heaven, and Hell. He proved His authority by rising from the grave. He didn’t teach about reincarnation or karma. Also, it also makes much more sense to me to believe that God is a person and the coincidences that you mentioned are examples of Him interacting with the world He created. He is a loving Father that cares about everyone…that makes more sense to me than karmic patterns and coincidences. I think the evidence for Jesus Christ and His life and teachings considerably outweighs evidence for karma and reincarnation.<<<

Okey dokey. So what I call karma you call God interacting. According to Jesus, God interacts according to how you interact with others.

By the way, what do you think the mission of Jesus was that He was trying to accomplish? <<<

JN 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

His mission was to overcome the world. The way I (and Edgar Cayce) interpret this is that he overcame himself. He submitted to the crucifixion and forgave all those involved. For some reason which I don’t understand this was required in order for the HS to come. Because of the HS we can be saved from ourselves.

 

[JohnGerard]

Hello John,

The problem isn't that we don't know how it works, but that purgatory and indulgences are incoherent with each other.  If God could do the purgatory stuff with less (pain, time, or whatever) why does he need indulgences from other people?  Why do you believe in purgatory?

I disagree. Purgatory and indulgences are not incoherent with each other. God can do whatever He wants. He can do all sorts of things with less. He can speak and things happen. He is omnipotent. The reason He chooses to use people as His instruments is because He wants us to learn to love as He does. Before God is anything else at all…He is a family. A triune family. And families love and care about one another. The Trinity does that perfectly…we imperfectly. Because we are adopted into His family through our faith in Jesus Christ He wills for us to love like He does which is completely selflessly and to do that we have to sacrifice for others. Praying for other people, whether Christians, non-Christians, friends, or even enemies on earth or those in purgatory is one way we can practice our love and concern for others and demonstrate our love for God. He doesn’t need us to pray for others…but He wills it. The bible is peppered with verses commanding Christians to pray for one another and even our enemies and nowhere are we released from that command. Indulgences are prayers/sacrifices for the behalf of others (or for ourselves as well).

Yes we get to decide it when we deal with others.  The king decided what was good when he cut off the toes of the other kings.  Do we wish for the success of others?  Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.

I don’t think you answered my question. If we get to decide for ourselves what is right and wrong…then why do I need to wish for the success of others? What if I have decided that is not the right thing to do? What standard tells me I need to wish for the success of others? What if I decide I want to wish for the downfall of others? Or remain neutral about it?

What if Adolf Hitler was reincarnated and decided “Good, now I can finish the job I started in the 20th century but never got to finish.” What standard says he is wrong to think that?

Saying that “Yes, we get to decide it when we deal with others.” doesn’t answer my question of what the standard of measure is for good or bad. It avoids it. You can quote from the Lord’s prayer for you…but it is ok if Adolf doesn’t agree with that…right? Or is there an objective standard of right and wrong?

Okey dokey. So what I call karma you call God interacting. According to Jesus, God interacts according to how you interact with others.

Yup. What you call karma, I call the person God. That about sums that up I think. But if karma doesn’t have an intellect and a will…it isn’t a person. Since God does have an intellect and a will…He is. We can agree to disagree…but we both can’t be right on this point. In my opinion, Faith in a personal God is a reasonable Faith. Belief in an impersonal force with no intellect but yet can “know” if what I do is “right or wrong”, based on some standard that you haven’t told me yet…that seems like a blind faith to me. Not trying to be argumentative, mind you. Just telling you how it looks to me.

By the way, what do you think the mission of Jesus was that He was trying to accomplish? <<<

One of the things I find that I really love about the Catholic Church is that it looks at Scripture as a whole before forming beliefs. Not just certain verses. Yes, Jesus came to overcome the world…but when you look at the context of that passage…why did Jesus say that then? Because He just got done telling His apostles that they were going to suffer tribulation. Basically, He was saying…“Hey guys, things are gonna get tough. But don’t worry…I’ve overcome everything.” Of course He also adds elsewhere that “I will always be with you.” He was comforting them by telling them He overcame the world.

To say His overcoming the world really means He overcame Himself really doesn’t make much sense to me at all contextually. John 16:33 would read, “In the world you have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome myself.” So what good does that do us? You overcome yourself and we get tribulation?? No, He said that to comfort them.

Also, His mission is stated elsewhere like in Luke 19:10 “For the Son of man came to seek and to save the lost.” The lost are sinners. He came to save sinners. That was His mission.

Why do I believe in Purgatory?

1. Jesus was an historical figure and said that He came to save sinners and He said He would build a church. (Matthew 16:18)
2. He demonstrated His authority by the miracles He performed and the life He lived.
3. He gave His Church His authority…Luke 10:16 “He who hears you hears me, he who rejects you rejects me.”
4. The key to it all…He arose from the dead, His grave is empty, He is alive. (If this isn’t true, Christianity doesn’t matter at all.)
5. The men He left in charge of His Church taught and wrote about Purgatory.
6. It makes sense. Nothing imperfect can enter Heaven, most of us are still imperfect when we die, so something has to happen to us between death and Heaven to perfect us.

 

[superwimp]

Hello John,

 All you wrote about Jesus mission may be true.  I was merely saying the way he accomplished it was by overcoming the world.

 >>>5. The men He left in charge of His Church taught and wrote about Purgatory.<<<

 So the natural tendency if someone tells you something knew is to ask how they know what they know.  How does his church know about purgatory?

 >>>3. He gave His Church His authority...Luke 10:16 "He who hears you hears me, he who rejects you rejects me."<<<

LK 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you
despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
If an individual can disagree with another individual without despising them then I see no problem with disagreeing. We have a right to think, and if our thinking results in forming an opinion different from another individual or organization we have a right to disagree. If an organization has difficulty coping with having people disagree with them then that is there problem.

 

[superwimp]

Hello,
The Jewish faith was established by God and Jesus said the leaders sit in the seat of Moses. He felt it was ok to disagree with them.

 

[JohnGerard]

Hello John,

 All you wrote about Jesus mission may be true.  I was merely saying the way he accomplished it was by overcoming the world.

 >>>5. The men He left in charge of His Church taught and wrote about Purgatory.<<<

 So the natural tendency if someone tells you something knew is to ask how they know what they know.  How does his church know about purgatory?

 >>>3. He gave His Church His authority...Luke 10:16 "He who hears you hears me, he who rejects you rejects me."<<<

LK 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you
despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

If an individual can disagree with another individual without despising them then I see no problem with disagreeing.  We have a right to think, and if our thinking results in forming an opinion different from another individual or organization we have a right to disagree.  If an organization has difficulty coping with having people disagree with them then that is there problem.

Hey superwimp,

First off…sorry for the horribly messy last post by me. I’m still a rookie and working on it.

About purgatory: Jesus taught His Apostles, His Apostles taught others, etc. Jesus also sent the Holy Spirit to teach them things that they were not ready for until later. He said He would do that. A compiled Bible didn’t exist for almost 400 years after Jesus died. So when somebody would tell you something back then, they could just go, “Well, wait a minute. We know that Ignatius dude. He was taught be John the Apostle. He’ll know the answer.” And after him they’d go, “Wait a minute…we know so and so who was taught by Ignatius who was taught by John the Apostle. He’ll know.” Some stuff was recorded and ended up in the Bible, some stuff was recorded but didn’t end up in the Bible, and some stuff was just lived. Should we baptize babies or not? Well, back then they would just say…“What did the Apostles do? Or those who knew the Apostles?” Same for Purgatory.

Here’s the link to a tract from C.A. It shows what early Christians thought about Purgatory.

catholic.com/tracts/the-roots-of-purgatory

I absolutely agree with you about having a right to think and disagree. Despise is a strong word, my preferred translation uses rejects…which is still pretty strong. The point Jesus is making, though, is that He taught the Truth, He gave His authority to the leaders of His Church to teach the Truth, and people are definitely free to reject that. However, if they do…depending on their level of culpability…they are rejecting Jesus and God the Father as well. That’s what He is saying.

I really don’t think I know of any organization that has difficulty coping with having people disagree with them. On a small scale, you and I disagree on much. But I don’t think you or I are having difficulty coping with that. I don’t see how an organization would have difficulty with that. But…as far as an organization like the Catholic Church goes, whether people agree or disagree, the Church is obligated to continue to teach the Truth. People are free to reject it, but the Church’s mission is to try to help all people obtain salvation. It won’t stop doing that just because some people disagree.

Do you have an example in mind of the Church having a difficulty coping with people who disagree or something? I guess since I am in America…I am thinking about America.

 

[JohnGerard]

Hello,

The Jewish faith was established by God and Jesus said the leaders sit in the seat of Moses.  He felt it was ok to disagree with them.

But, Jesus also respected the Pharisees teaching authority:

Matthew 23:2 “…they sit on Moses’ seat, so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do;”

Their official teaching was authoritative, but some of them were hypocrites and were not practicing what they preached. So the people could disagree with the hypocrisy…but not the official teachings.

It is similar for us as Catholics and we have had some horrible popes in our past history. Real scoundrels. (Not very many considering we have had over 260+ popes and we’ve had way more very good and faithful ones.)

But we can most certainly disagree with our popes (and priests) about a whole bunch of things. And if we were living in the times of some of those bad popes…hopefully we would disagree with them a whole bunch. Popes are sinners just like the rest of us. Just like the Jewish leaders were.

But their official teaching must be listened to.

 

[superwimp]

Hello John,

>>>Do you have an example in mind of the Church having a difficulty coping with people who disagree or something? I guess since I am in America...I am thinking about America. <<<

There are some groups which practice shunning and excommunication as a means of silencing alternate views.

We pretty much covered reincarnation.  There are some similarities between reincarnation and purgatory.

 

[JohnGerard]

Hello John,

>>>Do you have an example in mind of the Church having a difficulty coping with people who disagree or something? I guess since I am in America...I am thinking about America. <<<

There are some groups which practice shunning and excommunication as a means of silencing alternate views.

We pretty much covered reincarnation.  There are some similarities between reincarnation and purgatory.

Hey superwimp.

Yeah we’ve pretty much covered it. And thanks for the conversation. I’ve started to look into some of Ian Stevenson’s stuff just to see what there is. I haven’t read E.C’s stuff yet.
I suppose these kindsof interactions are similar to conversations in that even though we started with reincarnation…the topic varied as we went. I’m ok with that.

I don’t understand why people practice shunning. You are right. That is out there and seems so cruel.

My Church practices excommunication. But it is way different than shunning. Excommunication is a disciplinary action that basically says, “Hey, you are way out of bounds with what you did or are doing. Repent and come back.” But the lines of communication are open and the hope is that the person who is excommunicated changes what they are doing and returns to full communion with the Church.
And the Church is willing to work with people who have been excommunicated to help bring them back. That is way different than shunning.

Also, excommunication is not a way to silence alternate views. It can’t do that.
People are free to have whatever alternative views they wish and can express them. The Church simply says that certain views (or actions) or so severely against what the Church teaches that to believe them or do them puts that person out of communion with the Church. One example that comes to my mind is abortion. To actively participate in an abortion incurs the penalty of automatic excommunication, I believe…because that action so severely is against the Church’s belief in the sanctity of life from conception to death.

That person would have to repent of their action to be reunited with the Church. But reunite they most certainly can. And that is the Church’s hope.

 

[MJDorry]

Has it been demonstrated as “possible” through science and empirical research? No. The most that physicists have determined is that on paper, using complicated math, there might exist parallel and alternate universes. That’s where it ends, though. Empirically–that is to say, demonstrable to the sense or via devices of measurement–there is nothing beyond this universe.

Has it been demonstrated as “possible” through philosophy? To the best of my knowledge, no. The key word is demonstration. Philosophically, you can demonstrate truth through argument that cannot be demonstrated by empiricism, such as the existence of God, but nobody yet has developed a solid deductive, inductive, or otherwise rational philosophical demonstration of reincarnation. Even if they could, they’d run into the problem of having to demonstrate it empirically, as well, since we’re talking about the transference of consciousness from one living organism to another.

 

[superwimp]

Hello dorry,

The opposite of possible is impossible.  That's a pretty low bar for determining what is true.  In order for something to be impossible there needs to be some insurmountable obstacle.  What would this be with regards to reincarnation?

With regards to your last sentence, the version that I believe is that we are souls and from time to time enmesh ourselves in a biological life form.  There is no transfer of consciousness from one life form to another.  The higher consciousness remains with the soul.

 

[JohnGerard]

Karma is a natural law. Like the law of gravity or laws of motion. It does not have a will, it just operates to balance all your past good and bad deeds with appropriate consequences in the future. It is the person who commits these actions is the one who decides.

Karma will not stop you from exercising your free will. Jesus already knew about his crucifixion and decided to go though with it - it was his choice.

Hey openmind,

I was just wondering, do you think Karma has an intellect? I mean, can it think and reason?

Also, Yes, Jesus knew He would be an innocent man unjustly put to death. But He didn’t cause that to happen. He just lived His life. He didn’t request a crucifixion. People who hated him orchestrated that. He just submitted to it. Most people I’ve ever heard say that He was a good moral teacher. So it had to have been bad Karma that caused His crucifixion. Was it bad karma that caused the leaders to hate Him so much that they wanted Him dead? So how does Karma decide this good moral teacher needs to die a horrible death? I don’t get it.

 

[superwimp]

Hello John,

My understanding of karma is based on what Jesus said about being judged based on how we judge others.  If we see someone do something bad or if something is done to us, then what is our hope with regards to that person?  We decide what would be an appropriate punishment.  We don't realize that were actually determining what our punishment should be.  It's the same principle when someone does something good.  My understanding of karma is that it doesn't have an intellect.

In order to benefit humanity he had to undergo the torture and then forgive them. Before he came to earth he decided it’s what he wanted to do. Compare it to individuals. Some are content to walk around the block for exercise. Some aren’t happy unless there hiking the grand canyon. Karma isn’t forcing someone to hike the grand canyon.

 

[openmind77]

Hey openmind,

I was just wondering, do you think Karma has an intellect? I mean, can it think and reason?

Also, Yes, Jesus knew He would be an innocent man unjustly put to death. But He didn’t cause that to happen. He just lived His life. He didn’t request a crucifixion. People who hated him orchestrated that. He just submitted to it. Most people I’ve ever heard say that He was a good moral teacher. So it had to have been bad Karma that caused His crucifixion. Was it bad karma that caused the leaders to hate Him so much that they wanted Him dead? So how does Karma decide this good moral teacher needs to die a horrible death? I don’t get it.

I believe that Karma is like a Law of Nature, so it does not have a will like a person. But karma does not stop you from suffering or even accidents if that is what you choose. If you step in front of a fast moving bus, you will die however good your karma is. If you go to an ebola infested area without protection, the chances are you will catch it even if your karma is wonderful. Also you don’t have enemies because of your bad karma - most good people who take some action that opposes evil, will make enemies. If you go to China and preach free speech and democracy, you will make enemies, however good your karma is.

Jesus did not have bad karma. He chose to make enemies of those people who he thought were wrong. He chose to let them crucify him. He chose to suffer.

One interesting thought: As the time of the Christ’s return to the world comes closer, the resolution of everyone’s karma accelerates - all chickens come home to roost. That is what is happening these days - there is really no place to hide any more.

 

[JohnGerard]

Hello John,

My understanding of karma is based on what Jesus said about being judged based on how we judge others.

 

[JohnGerard]

I believe that Karma is like a Law of Nature

 

[openmind77]

We may be going a bit off-topic here, discussing karma instead of reincarnation (although they are strongly related), but since you are the OP, I guess it is OK.

Could you please explain why?

Unless I’m mistaken, you think karma is not a physical law (like the law’s of gravity or physics) but a moral one. A person’s karma is based on the good (or bad) that they have done. But it seems to me that it requires a judgement of good vs. bad in order for that to operate. So, if karma doesn’t have an intellect or a will…how can it judge my actions and whether or not they are good or bad? And if it can’t who does? It really seems to me that we need to have an intellect to determine good from bad…and the definition I keep seeing about karma doesn’t have that.

I am not sure what you mean by why. This is the way God created the world so that everyone gets what they deserve, and that is why we are governed by the Law of Karma. It is definitely not a physical law, but I prefer to call it a spiritual Law rather than a moral one. I personally don’t think there is any judgment involved. The law is quite impersonal. If you do something to hurt somebody, somebody else will hurt you in the same way in the future. There is no judgment of whether hurting somebody is good or bad. The future consequences are exactly equivalent to your present or past actions without any prejudice.

So I don’t see a reason to believe karma is true at all. Can you give me a reason to believe that karma is real?

There is no reason to believe in karma at all. But you should not believe that you (or some else) can get away with whatever you wish to do. Even the Bible says, you will reap as you sow.

Ok. I wouldn’t think so either. BUT…how do you know this? How do you determine that anyways?

There is no need to determine that Jesus had no bad karma - seems pretty obvious to me.

Why do you think He chose those things?

I think Christians believe he did it to atone for our sins. I personally believe, he was trying to set an example for all of us to follow, to demonstrate the value of suffering and renunciation.

I think you might be talking about a different Christ. I am talking about Jesus the Christ. In Acts 1:11 it tells us that “This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” When Jesus Christ returns, it will be the same Jesus Christ who was crucified, died, and was buried. And He will return visibly, with authority, on the clouds…just as they saw Him ascend.

I think there is only one Christ in the Earth system. There may be others elsewhere in the Universe

 

[JohnGerard]

We may be going a bit off-topic here, discussing karma instead of reincarnation (although they are strongly related), but since you are the OP, I guess it is OK.

I am not sure what you mean by why. This is the way God created the world so that everyone gets what they deserve, and that is why we are governed by the Law of Karma.

 

[JohnGerard]

I personally don’t think there is any judgment involved. The law is quite impersonal. If you do something to hurt somebody, somebody else will hurt you in the same way in the future. There is no judgment of whether hurting somebody is good or bad.

Hey openmind,

I believe in post #60 you stated: “Karma… does not have a will, it just operates to balance all your past good and bad deeds with appropriate consequences in the future.”

Above you state: “There is no judgment of whether hurting somebody is good or bad”

Those statements seem contradictory to me: Karma balances our “good and bad” deeds even though there is not judgment of something (like hurting someone) as being “good or bad”.

So I guess my question is do you think things we do are good or bad? If no, why? If yes, what is the standard we can use to determine what is good and what is bad?

Thanks.