Is there hope for me even though I am not Roman Catholic?

[whatisthetruth]

Hi again Marco,

I only read the first part of your post, because you know how I feel about your lengthly posts.

MarcoPolo, for you I keep this short

But the answer to above is Yes

Wow, that is a pleasant surprise. I hope we are on the same page, let’s see…

From the Catechism:847 Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

Well I know the Gospel, so that one does not apply to me.

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.
So if you innocently do not recognize the Catholic Church as Christ’s Church, you can still be saved.

If the Chatecism is suggesting that God can lead me back to the Catholic faith before my death then I agree.

However I said I am going to my grave a non Roman Catholic.

**Does #848 still apply to my situation?

If so how do you believe I can, having gone to my grave a non Roman Catholic, spend eternity in heaven?**

Thank you

truth

 

[Namesake]

Why is having “absolute assurance” of your destiny more important than perfecting yourself so that you will be deemed worthy by God to enter heaven?

Some of us believe that the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross justified (perfected?) us all if we accept it. We really do believe that.

 

[Namesake]

So if you innocently do not recognize the Catholic Church as Christ’s Church, you can still be saved.

OK, that’s cool! If as some here allege, I don’t understand Catholic dogma, doctrine, teaching, whatever you want to call it, I will have a shot at salvation because I don’t understand. I am “innocent”? Makes sense to me.

Can’t lose regardless of what I believe according to people here, because most people here think I don’t understand. If they are correct I am going to be just fine. Maybe a little stop in purgatory, but then off to heaven because I am innocent.

Do I have that right?

 

[whatisthetruth]

bump
Hi Namesake,

OK, that’s cool! If as some here allege, I don’t understand Catholic dogma, doctrine, teaching, whatever you want to call it, I will have a shot at salvation because I don’t understand. I am “innocent”? Makes sense to me.

Can’t lose regardless of what I believe according to people here, because most people here think I don’t understand. If they are correct I am going to be just fine. Maybe a little stop in purgatory, but then off to heaven because I am innocent.

Do I have that right?

Thank you for your comments.

Did you by chance see my “another message at calvary” thread

the link is in my opening post, I be interested in your comments

thank you

truth

 

[MarcoPolo]

However I said I am going to my grave a non Roman Catholic.

**Does #848 still apply to my situation?

If so how do you believe I can, having gone to my grave a non Roman Catholic, spend eternity in heaven?**

Please operate under the assumption when the Catholic Church says the Gospel, it is understood as that revealed by Christ through the Church. I know you have a different understanding, and that is fine…but you asked for the Catholic perspective.

From a Catholic perspective, 848 could very well apply to your situation. Depending on the amount of grace afforded you to understand the fullness of the truth of Christ, you may or may not be very pleasing to God! cf. Luke 12:48. Remember also the Catechism’s mention of “conscience.”

As well, I don’t believe the Catholic Church would consider your statement: “I am going to my grave a non Roman Catholic.” to be infallible. You sound awfully eager to view the Catholic Church as condemning you…is this a desire of sorts for you???

 

[StevenFrancis]

…In other words, I am asking, Do you believe there is any other way for me to be saved from the fires of hell in my situation desribed above?

Any ‘other way’ in contrast to what? There was nothing in your scenario that clues us in on his spiritual state from the time the Christian visitor left, and the time your protaganist died. We don’t know if he converted to Christianity. We don’t know if he asked God’s forgiveness. We don’t know anything about his thoughts, motives, and future intentions (if he had not died). This can not be answered with any certainty by an earthly person because it is a matter of theology, philosophy and faith. These are spiritual and metaphysical sciences, and don’t offer concrete demonstrable results to experiemental stimulii. We can only choose to employ faith or to not. If before your subject died, he had a conversion experience, then persons of faith believe that salvation is possible. It is never guaranteed except for those to whom the guarantee was given in person by Jesus Christ duing his incarnation as man. The reasons to be Catholic as opposed to not being Catholic, have to do with graces available to man through sacramental life which help us to live in a Christlike manner, thereby enormously increasing the probability, (when aligned with deep faith), that paradise is our reward. We do ourselves a disservice to not take advantage of the incredible gifts of grace available through the sacraments, which are in turn offered by the Church that He instituted. It is the most probable path set up on Earth to salvation. Jesus says He is the way. He says the Church established on his Apostle Peter is His Church. In the end, only God can change the rules. He can accept whomever he wishes under abnormal circumstances.

U]This is the one question I can not get a firm answer on either way.

No surprise, and frankly I’m relieved. There is no firm answer to give to your scenario. Not a scientific one anyway. We can all offer theological, and philisophical answers based on the Word of God, which we hold to be true, and naturally self evident, however, your scenario is lacking enough substance to even apply Catholic beliefs. There are just too many unknowns in your scenario itself.

I am sincerely seeking the truth of what you believe about eternal salvation.

I believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen.
I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally
begotten of the Father, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.
For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven, by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered, died and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures; he
ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds
from the Father and the Son.
Who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified.
Who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

My thoughts are this,

If the thief on the cross…I believe in the same way the Lord will also welome back and save one who…(breaks any of the commandments)

This is why we have the sacrament of reconcilliation. If the sacrament is not available, as with your prisoner, then they must do their best to atone directly with God prior to death.

CONTINUED IN NEXT MESSAGE

Peace to you,

Steven

 

[StevenFrancis]

CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS RESPONSE:

Question
If God saved a thief on his death bed and let him know of his eternal destiny, why wouldn’t He save us and let us know of our own eternal destiny before we take our last breath?

The thief on the cross was saved by God, in person. He demonstrated his faith in God. God can do anything he’d like. Just as I stated earlier. This may be the case with us in abnormal circumstances as well. We’ll know for sure when we die and are in the physical proximity, (so to speak), of God. Nobody on earth can say that this is not so for certain. I wish to point out that the thief on the cross was also not ignorant. He knew who Jesus was, and believed on him. Interestingly, the thief says nothing about being repentent for his sins. God judges him directly and, as far as the thief is concerned, passively. The thief just asks Christ to remember him when he comes to his kingdom. He was submitted to a passive internal judgement on the spot, as we will be at judgement. You don’t have to SAY you repent verbally. You have to REALLY repent INTERNALLY. God will see your heart in judgement. You will be passive. Not responding to questions or being grilled etc. You’ll simply be judged on the state you are in. Your best chances of being in a state of grace, are by living sacramentally.

The spirit/soul is not (at current time) the subject of laboratory tested science, we can only take God at His Word and try to live in an imitation of Jesus. (help our fellow man, feed the hungry, house the homeless, visit the sick and jailed, etc.). He gave us a Church to administer His sacraments, and send out disciples to spread the Word. Jesus promised us we would have eternal life if we did this. I choose to exercise my free will toward believing Him.

Peace,

Steven

 

[Righteousone]

You will die as you have lived your life.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

However, when it comes to salvation, I believe “absolute assurance” is important because…

…well let me ask you

CalmDownWisWins, what do you believe would happen to you while you are on your road of “perfecting yourself so that you will be deemed worthy by God to enter heaven” you died right now instantly…cardiac arrest?

Are you “absolutely assured” !00% sure you will go to heaven?

yes_____ no_____

I have no need to know what it is not my business to know. That is the simplest answer to your question. Therefore, No, I have no absolute assurance of heaven, and it would be the height of impertinence for me to assume that I am worthy of that information.

Just as we are not to worry about when Jesus is to come again, and simply to expect Him at any moment and strive toward perfection, we are not to worry about our “idolatrous need” for assurance of being rewarded with heaven.

Here lies the difference between our beliefs.
I can answer that question with a definite yes.
If you can not,
I am asking why not?

Once again: To answer that question with a YES is to “presumptuously test God” in your assumption of worthiness to know the mystery of your destiny!

The consequences of being assured of that which can’t be assured is a less likelyhood of being granted the thing thought assured.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

When can Roman catholics experience absolute assurance on this side of eternity?

Catholics have no need of assurance of heaven before either receiving it or not.

We have our eye on our pilgrim journey, not on finding a “magic rope” which, when we fall on our path, at our death, will “yank” us into Jerusalem.

We trust to God, that He will measure us rightly and justly against what we were offered by Him and He will be our Friend and Father and help us in miraculous ways after our fall on the path, after our death, to move us along our remaining path arm in arm with us, finally to reach Jerusalem after having tread ALL of our path, both before our death and after it.

The answer to that question is the reason for this thread.

I may not get a chance to continue on the road, as you say, of “perfecting” myself tomorrow.

I may die as I am typing this post.

If I should die, it is an awesome experience I can not describe knowing that if I do die right know, I am 100% sure I will spend eternity in heaven.

Your “identification” with the good thief may well be something you should “look into”? I would heartily suggest consultation with a priest, but what are the chances of that?

Obviously, tomorrow is a different story. I may fall to sin and then I need to sincerely confess and repent to God, be forgiven of my sin/s and continue back on the road to “perfecting” myself.

The protestant want’s “utter assurance” because he is constantly unsure, being at an (at least) unconsciously perceptible distance from the Church.

Being perfect before dying is not the goal. Being on the path to perfection before dying is the goal. While on the path we can’t know any more than that the path we’re on either goes toward perfection or not, and when we fall, in death, it is up to God ALONE to decide whether we’re on the right path in the right way such that He will help us to continue toward perfections end.

Even being ON the right road is no guarantee that we are on it in the right way such that it is inevitable that we will “snap” to it’s end when we die.

 

[Namesake]

Catholics have no need of assurance of heaven before either receiving it or not.

We have our eye on our pilgrim journey, not on finding a “magic rope” which, when we fall on our path, at our death, will “yank” us into Jerusalem.

We trust to God, that He will measure us rightly and justly against what we were offered by Him and He will be our Friend and Father and help us in miraculous ways after our fall on the path, after our death, to move us along our remaining path arm in arm with us, finally to reach Jerusalem after having tread ALL of our path, both before our death and after it.

Oh come on now. You make this way too difficult. Protestants believe that by accepting Jesus Christ as personal Savior and Lord, and repenting of sin, life eternal is assured, through Christ. It’s that simple. Don’t make it so difficult.

Your “identification” with the good thief may well be something you should “look into”? I would heartily suggest consultation with a priest, but what are the chances of that?

The protestant want’s “utter assurance” because he is constantly unsure, being at an (at least) unconsciously perceptible distance from the Church.

Being perfect before dying is not the goal. Being on the path to perfection before dying is the goal. While on the path we can’t know any more than that the path we’re on either goes toward perfection or not, and when we fall, in death, it is up to God ALONE to decide whether we’re on the right path in the right way such that He will help us to continue toward perfections end.

Even being ON the right road is no guarantee that we are on it in the right way such that it is inevitable that we will “snap” to it’s end when we die.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ralphinal
If Paul beleived in assured salvation, please explain this verses

Phil 2:12
“So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.”

I will answer with pleasure,

Once one is saved, one is not necessarily always saved.

Which is the pre-eminent “Protestant Mystery”, in that it’s meaning is not humanly knowable.

Catholics believe that “being saved” is a singular event.

Once one is saved, or not, the event is over and is irreproducible and irrevocable.

Just as the angels made the irrevocable decision to be “saved” or not, only once are we “saved”. Before that we are variously “sanctified” (possessing a grade of holiness) which is taken into consideration by God as is His will, which we are not to know or worry about.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

ralphinal, so when you said,

Quote:
I am not worried about my salvation

To me, it can only mean one of three things (I invite you to add the fourth if it applies to you)

Your statement “I am not worried about my salvation” could mean that,

A) You are “absolute assured”, 100% sure you will spend eternity in heaven if you were to die right now.
Praise God If this is the case
—or
B) You are not “absolute assured”, 100% sure you will spend eternity in heaven. But because of “____________” you are not worried about spending eternity in heaven f you were to die right now. (basically God is a good God and He will let you into heaven)
—or
C) You are not “absolute assured” you will spend eternity in heaven should you die right now, (and since God is a good God, He will let you into heaven)
—or
D) Something I did not mention

The answer is “D”.

We ARE worried about our salvation, but NOT about having ASSURANCE of our salvation, because it’s not our business to know!

You are worried about possessing ASSURANCE, not about salvation! We can live with what God has told us we are to live with, which is being perpetually UNSURE while alive of any assurance of our destiny.

You prefer to choose to ignore God and construe through misinterpretation of scripture an ASSURANCE where there is none. Why you do this I won’t conjecture on.

In fact, your “assurance” is only a temporary possession, as you readily admit, which, when the object of the so-called “assurance” is a thing which can only occur once, nullifies any meaning of the word “assurance” meaning “assured to happen”.

If “A” is not your answer ralphinal, I am confused by your statement suggesting “no one should be” worried about their salvation.

why wouldn’t you be worried about the chance you might not spend eternity in heaven?

Once again, we are not worried about assurance. We ARE worried about our salvation.

If one has assurance, then one need not worry about salvation. Is it ever wise to not worry about salvation, for however long or short a period?

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

…but when it comes to eternal life there is only 2 choices,

Heaven and the only other alternative is Hell

I strive to live my life for the Lord each and every day. And If I fall short on my quest to do that, I know I can wind up in hell.

So you work out your salvation with vigor. Excellent. Very Catholic!

It is at those times I thank Him for His overwhelming grace and forgiveness which I can receive, by faith, according to His word.

Amen! And while your means of reconciliation are not the best, they are good, and to your credit.

As long as you don’t do as well as you could in reconciling with the Body of Christ, your willfull refusal of the full measure of the graces that God offers you makes you somewhat less likely to choose God over your “needs” (ie the idol of “asssurance”), but doesn’t prohibit your choice of Him in His mercy.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

hope you agree with me that,

after Jesus told the thief “today I will remember you in paradise”, the thief was 100% assured of his eternal destiny in heaven both expressed by his FAITH in Jesus and then Jesus’ promise to him after seeing that the thief’s faith was real and sincere.

Agree?

The thief had the chance to mortally sin when Jesus finished His sentence and before he died, but JESUS is GOD and knew that the thief was not to do that!

We are told (by the Church) that we are NOT to accept “visions” (revelations) which may be from God as reliable without the interpretation of the whole Church.

Since we have no way to know if our “revelation” that “Jesus just told me that I’m perfectly saved until I mortally sin again” as being true, we have no assurance, unlike the good thief, of the truth of our “interpretation” of “assured salvation”.

You cling more to “assurance” than to “salvation”.

I shall pray that you find that the need for salvation is more important than the idol of assurance.

 

[sodak]

WhatIsThe Truth,

There is always hope. So my answer is yes.

Now for the long(er) answer. I believe that Jesus instituted his Church for a reason. I do believe that, as Christians, we are called to be members of his Church and faithful followers. If someone, to the best of their ability and conscience, were to disagree with the Church on certain matters, but didn’t cause injury or speak against it, then I doubt that they are in trouble. Everyone has a right to follow their conscience, but with that right comes a responsibility for a fully informed conscience.

The thief on the cross made (IMO) as perfect a PUBLIC confession as he was able to make. He reached out to our Lord the only way that he could. As pitiful as his attempt probably was, Jesus saw into his soul and heart and forgave him. The thief had PERFECT assurance of his salvation. I seriously doubt that anyone could deny that.

In a similar vein, when the Apostles heard of a man who was not one of them, but casting out demons in our Lord’s name, Jesus calmly told them (paraphrasing) that he who is not against us is with us.

I do believe that these two separate events show that people who love Jesus and try their best to follow him are moving in the right direction, and are not going to be damned to hell automatically. God looks into everyone’s heart and soul, only you and He know what you are thinking.

I do believe, however, that you are much safer staying under the Church’s wing in obedience to our Lord. I believe that keeps you closer to our Lord than anything else.

As always, the choice is yours. I love your questions, and do believe that you are truly searching for the truth. I will keep you in my prayers.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Do Roman Catholics believe one can have “absolute assurance” of their own salavation, eternity in heaven, just like the thief had from the promise of Jesus Himself, should one die right now, this instant?
…

I am not sure Roman Catholics agree with me.

If Roman Catholics do not,

I am curious as to why Roman Catholics believe God would give a promise of eternity in heaven to a thief on a cross, who desires salvation, with no religious background and not give that same promise to all of us should we die right now?

The good thief did not have absolute assurance of reaching heaven in his own mind, but he did have real assurance of doing so because only God’s pronouncements, which are NEVER FULLY accepted by the human mind (due to our concupiscence), always give utter assurance of truth. We just never quite completely believe them. The closer we can come to thoroughly believing them, evidenced by our actions, the closer we get to being able to choose God and not our idols at our end.

God did not give a promise to the good thief. He stated a reality. Because the good thief was worthy of salvation, he was saved.

No one’s “religious background” means a thing if it is not in support of their “being worthy”. They are worthy because through God’s grace they choose to do what made them worthy.

It is easy to say “Lord Lord!”, and not do what He says to do.

It is easier to say “Lord? Who?”, and choose heaven by what we do in response to God’s grace, than to not do as He says in “assurance” of idolic “religious” illusions and choose heaven in defiance of His grace.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Quote:
Purgatory completes our incorporation into the Body by conforming us more perfectly into the image of Christ.

Here lies the problem, you believe there is a purgatory I do not.

I believe the microsecond we die we are at heaven’s “gate”.

Whether or not we will spend eternity in Heaven will rest on the decision we made in our life about our faith in Jesus Christ.

Purgatory is the guarantee of reaching heaven. The protestant refuses to believe that any “cleansing” is neccessary because cleansing ISN’T necessary for “assurance” to mean anything. One needn’t be clean when one’s cleanness is irrelevant to the goal.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

If the Chatecism is suggesting that God can lead me back to the Catholic faith before my death then I agree.

However I said I am going to my grave a non Roman Catholic.

Does #848 still apply to my situation?

If so how do you believe I can, having gone to my grave a non Roman Catholic, spend eternity in heaven?

So, you have “assurance” of that as well?

That’s good, actually. As it’s just as meaningful as having “assurance” of your ultimate salvation. Meaning, only very little, and more appropriately called “desire”.

It shows that you have truly taken a stand, which I for one respect enormously! There are far too many in CAF who are more than a little wishy-washy.

The thing you refuse to accept is that you ARE a member of the Body of Christ, and that Body is the Church (Catholic), though you are not in fullest communion with her. Therefore, you might be saved in the end, but the more vehemently you struggle without “relenting before death”, the more unlikely it is that you will be saved.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalmDownWisWins
Why is having “absolute assurance” of your destiny more important than perfecting yourself so that you will be deemed worthy by God to enter heaven?

Some of us believe that the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross justified (perfected?) us all if we accept it. We really do believe that.

I believe that too, but I have a different meaning, appartently, for the phrase “if we accept it”.

Full acceptance, or rather MORE full acceptance, is a “doing” by God’s grace, which is **doing **as God has told us to do.

Some of us believe that the Church, as the Body of Christ is to be believed and followed in those things in which she tells us to believe and follow her. We really do believe that.