Is there hope for me even though I am not Roman Catholic?

[CalmDownWisWins]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcoPolo
So if you innocently do not recognize the Catholic Church as Christ’s Church, you can still be saved.

OK, that’s cool! If as some here allege, I don’t understand Catholic dogma, doctrine, teaching, whatever you want to call it, I will have a shot at salvation because I don’t understand. I am “innocent”? Makes sense to me.

Can’t lose regardless of what I believe according to people here, because most people here think I don’t understand. If they are correct I am going to be just fine. Maybe a little stop in purgatory, but then off to heaven because I am innocent.

Do I have that right?

You have a “chance” at being saved, but it’s a vanishingly small chance if you only “don’t understand” because you “don’t like” what you’re hearing.

It’s easy to claim ignorance to us, but it’s a bit more difficult to make that claim before God.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalmDownWisWins
Catholics have no need of assurance of heaven before either receiving it or not.

We have our eye on our pilgrim journey, not on finding a “magic rope” which, when we fall on our path, at our death, will “yank” us into Jerusalem.

We trust to God, that He will measure us rightly and justly against what we were offered by Him and He will be our Friend and Father and help us in miraculous ways after our fall on the path, after our death, to move us along our remaining path arm in arm with us, finally to reach Jerusalem after having tread ALL of our path, both before our death and after it.

Oh come on now. You make this way too difficult. Protestants believe that by accepting Jesus Christ as personal Savior and Lord, and repenting of sin, life eternal is assured, through Christ. It’s that simple. Don’t make it so difficult.

What does “accepting Jesus Christ as personal savior and Lord” mean?

Is it so “personal” that there is no help from anyone but “internal revelation from the Holy Spirit HImself” as to what it means?

My “path”, which you describe as “difficult”, is simple:
*) Perfect yourself in ways given us from The Body of Christ.
*) Don’t worry about things which God has told us not to worry about.
*) Expect to bear a lot of crosses, the greatest of which is to place any “want/need/desire” over Him, especially the want for “comfort” (such as “assurance”).

 

[Namesake]

You have a “chance” at being saved, but it’s a vanishingly small chance if you only “don’t understand” because you “don’t like” what you’re hearing.

It’s easy to claim ignorance to us, but it’s a bit more difficult to make that claim before God.

I don’t claim ignorance. But if people here are correct, that I am ignorant, would I be saved? I mean, they say it a lot. Maybe they are correct and I am too ignorant to know.

If they are right, that I am ignorant of the faith, then I have a decent shot at salvation, right? Especially if I demonstrate desire, which I clearly do. I am just ignorant of the truth, according to some people here. People who are ignorant, or don’t know, are offered salvation any way, somehow.

By the way, I can’t imagine that a loving merciful God would condemn people to eternal damnation because they were ignorant of the truth. How does that happen? If it is part of your faith then count me out! I am certain it is not.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

I don’t claim ignorance. But if people here are correct, that I am ignorant, would I be saved? I mean, they say it a lot. Maybe they are correct and I am too ignorant to know.

Nobody here particuarly CARES if your ignorant or otherwise. You are being shown what (we think in our clumsy way) you need to know to not BE ignorant. What you actually DO with that information is between you and God.

Some protestants would argue that just as one can be “assured of salvation”, one can be “assured of damnation”.

Catholics don’t claim either statement is correct, and both are nonsensical. It’s simply not possible to tell you you are saved OR damned, as the only authority who can know that is God Himself.

Catholics TRY to not say things that we don’t REALLY REALLY know to be true! That’s why there are so few actual “infallibly true” dogmas, most all of which simply DEFY being falsified by “worldly means”. It’s a major character flaw!

If they are right, that I am ignorant of the faith, then I have a decent shot at salvation, right? Especially if I demonstrate desire, which I clearly do. I am just ignorant of the truth, according to some people here. People who are ignorant, or don’t know, are offered salvation any way, somehow.

“Salvation” is the final choice, given ONCE by God Himself and made irrevocably by the sinner, wherein one chooses God or not-God (which means “one’s unGodly desires”).

How one chooses is largely determined by one’s choices in the areas of faith and morals habitually during life which correspond to the dogmas of the Church. It is quite possible for one to follow ONLY natural law (doing good) and choose God in the end, but the more one knows of revealed truth from the Church, the more one is bound to specifically conform to those truths.

“To whom much is given, much is demanded.”

Now that you are “learned” of the paths to the fullness of divinely revealed truth, you have basically kissed your “ignorance” good-bye. You are now, most likely, operating in the area of “rejection”, which is the signature path to hell.

By the way, I can’t imagine that a loving merciful God would condemn people to eternal damnation because they were ignorant of the truth. How does that happen? If it is part of your faith then count me out! I am certain it is not.

No one is held responsible for that which they aren’t responsible! God certainly doesn’t do that.

It’s the rejection of God, which even the most remote untouched-by-Christianity “savage” who’s never had contact with anyone but his cousin “Orgu” (who is also never even eaten a Christian) can choose not to do by being “good” (as defined by the Church), which damns us to hell.

Anyone who clings to their “comforts” when they could cling to “the most good” is hellbound. Once the FINAL choice is made, eternity will be faced in our realm of choice.

 

[VARC]

Hi again Marco,

If the Chatecism is suggesting that God can lead me back to the Catholic faith before my death then I agree.

However I said I am going to my grave a non Roman Catholic.

**Does #848 still apply to my situation?

If so how do you believe I can, having gone to my grave a non Roman Catholic, spend eternity in heaven?**

Thank you

truth

Without sugarcoating it I believe that you have answered your own question. According to the catholic religion and your previous statemen(I am going to my grave a non Roman Catholic) then you will most certaintly be damned no matter what you do or whatever other truth you may believe. The fact that you are here and are quoting the CCC proves(at least to me) that you are not some ignorant bushman who is oblivious to civilization outsise his jungle.

I’ve read you ask that question before. Might I ask why you are concerned about it? Do you feel guilty or are you afraid? No matter what religion you are lots of people think you’re going to hell because you’re not a catholic,mormon,muslim, etc. so why do you care? I hope you’re not offended by the answer. I’m trying to be very clear so as to put your mind at ease concerning this question.

 

[2thousand8]

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0512fea3.asp

Instead of discussing on a message board, personal opinions from Catholics…why not seek answers from a more reliable source? I’d think you’d get your answers better that way. So many Catholics don’t always know the correct answers.

 

[ralphinal]

Hi ralphinal

To your ending comments

May I add “and not falling to the temptations of Satan and sinning”?

to which I absolutely agree

I will answer with pleasure,

**Once one is saved, one is not necessarily **always saved.

And when you said,

I believe it is definitely a good start, I believe there is more just as you said

Absolutely agree

Absolutely agree

I believe most of what you are asking me is answered in my previous post to CalmDownWisWins

starting with

In my desire to be like Jesus, I may fall to sin and then I need to sincerely confess and repent to God, be forgiven of my sin/s and continue back on God’s path again.

I believe that is what is means to work out my salvation.

Salvation is a way of life, keeping the faith each and every day is not easy for a lot of people, including myself. I thank God I didn’t die in those low times. God only knows where I would have wound up.

In due respect,
what if you do not make it to the “end”?

I went on to say to CalmDownWisWins,

ralphinal, so when you said,

To me, it can only mean one of three things (I invite you to add the fourth if it applies to you)

Your statement “I am not worried about my salvation” could mean that,

A) You are “absolute assured”, 100% sure you will spend eternity in heaven if you were to die right now.
Praise God If this is the case

or

B) You **are not **“absolute assured”, 100% sure you will spend eternity in heaven. But because of “____________” you are not worried about spending eternity in heaven f you were to die right now. (basically God is a good God and He will let you into heaven)

or

C) You **are not **“absolute assured” you will spend eternity in heaven should you die right now, (and since God is a good God, He will let you into heaven)

or

D) Something I did not mention

If “A” is not your answer ralphinal, I am confused by your statement suggesting “no one should be” worried about their salvation.

why wouldn’t you be worried about the chance you might not spend eternity in heaven?

I am sorry ralphinal, but your comment scares me.

I know we are in disagreement on a lot of issues, but when it comes to eternal life there is only 2 choices,

Heaven and the only other alternative is Hell

I strive to live my life for the Lord each and every day. And If I fall short on my quest to do that, I know I can wind up in hell.

It is at those times I thank Him for His overwhelming grace and forgiveness which I can receive, by faith, according to His word.

I hope I answered your questions

I look forward to your response

truth

You did answer it. It seemed like you were a OSAS type. Thanks for the clarification.

Why am I not worried about my salvation? It is not because I am sure that I am without sin, as I may be deluding my self. It is not because I beleive that I have no chance of sinning again, because I am human and I will be tempted. Why do I not worry? Because Jesus said “Fear not.” I am not afraid. I beleive in him with all of my heart. I try to avoid sin. When I do fall, I repent. But, through all of this, I know that he is with me. I know that my salvation lies in Christ. THere is no reason to be afraid. This may not answer your question, but it is how I feel. I fear nothing because Christ is with me, even my own eternal fate.

 

[AquinasT]

truth,
I skipped over everything that has been posted since I made my last post so that I can answer your question to me directly. (I don’t check back here very often, but I do think your question deserves answering. Please excuse me if any of this has been covered already.)
The thief on the cross is an extraordinary case. You point to it as though it assures YOU personally of %100 certainty of salvation. But it does not. Jesus says that “you” [the criminal at his side, whom He is addressing] will be in paradise. He does not say anything to the other criminal, so we cannot be sure about him. He does not say anything to the Roman soldiers present, so we cannot assume anything about them. In fact everyone there who was guilty of some great sin He does not speak to on whether or not they are saved. We cannot know, nor can they whether they are saved. It is possible that some of them had a change of heart, and they too are saved, but Jesus was speaking only to that criminal at that particular time. These people did not recieve %100 assurance but it certainly showed them hope. And that is the conclusion we can draw for ourselves - a great hope.
You may think that you are %100 saved, and that may give you great comfort. Good for you. I hope you keep working at it. But you are one single human with imperfect knowledge of God’s will and without God Himself uttering some divine revelation to you (as with the criminal), you cannot be certain. You do not know that you may falter at some point in the future and make shipwreck of your faith.
As for your scenario of a dying person and whether they can have a death-bed conversion - of course they can, as the criminal at Jesus’ side clearly shows. But notice that the criminal himself was unsure until Jesus said the precise words himself. Without those precise words (a divine revelation spoken directly to us) none of us can be %100 sure. There will always be the possibility that maybe we are just sorry for our sins because we got caught at the last minute of our lives and we want an easy way out. Perhaps we have false motives. We are fooling ourselves, saying “Lord, Lord, have mercy on me,” and Jesus says “I do not know you.” Just because a person wants to avoid eternal damnation doesn’t mean he or she can, at the last minute, call out and expect to be heard. I’m not saying that deathbed conversions are impossible, but I’m also not saying that they offer %100 certainty of salvation.
Thomas

 

[Righteousone]

Death bed conversions are not possible because you will die as you lived your life. You cannot sin all your life and at the last minute repent. It doesn’t work like that. If you have confessed your sins to a priest during your life and were truly sorry, you have a better chance at God forgiving you at death.

 

[AquinasT]

righteousone,
Why do you say that deathbed conversions are impossible? How can you say that God’s mercy is limited in that way?
Thomas

 

[sodak]

Death bed conversions are not possible because you will die as you lived your life. You cannot sin all your life and at the last minute repent. It doesn’t work like that. If you have confessed your sins to a priest during your life and were truly sorry, you have a better chance at God forgiving you at death.

This is inconsistent with Catholic teachings. Deathbed conversions are certainly possible.

 

[Righteousone]

righteousone,
Why do you say that deathbed conversions are impossible? How can you say that God’s mercy is limited in that way?
Thomas/QUOT

I didn’t say impossible, but improbable. You cannot sin your whole life and then say well ok God, forgive me and take me to Heaven. Doesn’t work that way…do you not agree?
I believe if you are working out your salvation “In fear and trembling” like St. Paul says, and have gone to confession during one’s life time, yes, you can repent. But if you’ve done nothing for the Lord, I simply don’t see that happening.

 

[AquinasT]

Upon reviewing the other posts in this thread it seems to me that the misunderstanding is a classic Protestant/Catholic disagreement.
For Protestants it is ALL or NOTHING: You are either %100 going to heaven or %100 going to hell; you are either saved by faith ALONE or you believe that works will save you; you either follow Scripture ALONE or you forget Scripture and follow the traditions of men…etc… (Obviously misunderstanding the Catholic position on all of these…)
Catholics see the subtle complexities that open us to a whole new world of God’s overflowing mercy and grace that penetrate so many facets of our life. We know that claiming %100 assurance is boastful and arrogant - instead we HOPE in Jesus Christ and humble ourselves. We do not take salvation for granted; we believe that faith saves us, but we build our faith through good works. We do not pridefully interpret Scripture as though we are our own divinely appointed authority - we acknowledge the Tradition that came before us and the Church that preserves it along with Scripture. We know that Grace will save us, but we must be open to receiving God’s Grace in all the ways He pours it out to us.
You are framing this OP question in the typical way - you propose an “all or nothing” scenario. You want to call the hand of God rather than hope in His mercy.
Thomas

 

[Righteousone]

This is inconsistent with Catholic teachings. Deathbed conversions are certainly possible.

I said that they ARE possible. Read the Catholic Register newspaper, because this is where I read it.

 

[Righteousone]

Upon reviewing the other posts in this thread it seems to me that the misunderstanding is a classic Protestant/Catholic disagreement.
For Protestants it is ALL or NOTHING: You are either %100 going to heaven or %100 going to hell; you are either saved by faith ALONE or you believe that works will save you; you either follow Scripture ALONE or you forget Scripture and follow the traditions of men…etc… (Obviously misunderstanding the Catholic position on all of these…)
Catholics see the subtle complexities that open us to a whole new world of God’s overflowing mercy and grace that penetrate so many facets of our life. We know that claiming %100 assurance is boastful and arrogant - instead we HOPE in Jesus Christ and humble ourselves. We do not take salvation for granted; we believe that faith saves us, but we build our faith through good works. We do not pridefully interpret Scripture as though we are our own divinely appointed authority - we acknowledge the Tradition that came before us and the Church that preserves it along with Scripture. We know that Grace will save us, but we must be open to receiving God’s Grace in all the ways He pours it out to us.
You are framing this OP question in the typical way - you propose an “all or nothing” scenario. You want to call the hand of God rather than hope in His mercy.
Thomas

Thank you for understanding. I may not always word correctly, forgive me.

 

[Ignatius]

Hi all,

I have been in conversations with many Roman Catholics trying to get an answer to a question I been asking in numerous threads.

It is my hope I can get an answer which we all can learn from.

The question at hand, based on the scenario I presented below,

Is there hope for me to spend eternity in heaven?

We know where the Grace of God is, which is in The Church which Jesus Christ founded. We don’t know where it is not. The Church does not presume to limit the mercy of God. We simply do not know who will not spend eternity in heaven. If you wish to experiment and see how far you can get from it without going too far, that is your decision.

Grace and peace to you.

Yours in Christ.

 

[AquinasT]

I agree, righteousone, a deathbed conversion is indeed improbable. Which makes evangelization and our own daily conversion all the more important. Thank you for the clarification.

 

[thomasf]

There is one thing to keep in mind here. Catholic belief is that God’s grace comes to us through the sacraments. Sacraments are ordinary conduits of His grace for us through the church.

But God is not bound by the sacraments. He will certainly give you grace through the sacraments, if you are faithful and serious about them. But it’s not the only way He can work. God can certainly work as He pleases where He pleases. He’s God!

So the answer to the original question isn’t an either/or answer. It’s more complex than that. And that is something protestants don’t normally understand.

The way I like to explain it is like this:

You’re best bet in obtaining salvation is through the church and through the sacraments that Jesus instituted in His church. That means joining the body of Christ through baptism. Repenting your sins through reconcilliation. Eating His flesh in the Eucharist. Confirming your baptism. Discerning a vocation or entering into marriage. And the annointing of the sick and/or last rites. These sacraments are conduits of grace for us to become closer to Christ. The church and the sacraments are created to help guide us through life, for constant repentence and conversion and to get us closer to God and closer to living in total grace. To be worthy of Heaven.

Why do I say best bet? Because for MOST people, who are born and live their lives and die in old age, this is the path to follow. That’s what the church was created for as a guide for us through life. However, there are people who find the truth of Jesus Christ in unusual ways. On their death bed, at the last moments of life, etc. Christ can save them too. But it has to be a serious contrition, a serious repentence of sin for offending God, and a desire to live with Him.

This is what happened to the thief on the cross. He realized in his last minutes that Jesus was the Lord and savior, and repented and asked for forgiveness. Lucky for him, he could ask Jesus in person for His forgiveness. And because God is merciful, Jesus granted it.

Now, you can roll the dice and wait for your last moments and try to ask Jesus for His forgiveness. Most of us won’t have the opportunity to do it face to face. And we won’t know until we die if He granted us that mercy. To me, that’s a huge gamble. And one I don’t want to take. And honestly, what does that really say about our contrition if we wait for the last minute and hope God grants us a loophole to salvation?

Or, you can take the safe bet, strive for perfected living, a constant repentence and conversion, and come into the body of Chirst in the catholic church. Receive the sacraments, strive to live a holy life and reject sin and use the conduits of grace Jesus gave us.

Me, I’m taking the church.

Overall, the answer to the original question is yes, you might be able to be saved at the last minute. But we won’t know, you won’t know, no one will know or be assured until we die and meet Jesus for our Judgement face to face. And that can be said about all of us. We don’t know if we are saved, which makes for a pretty big incentive to continually strive for salvation all our lives.

 

[thomasf]

I didn’t say impossible, but improbable.

Actually, what you said was not possible:

Death bed conversions are **not possible **

Just to be clear. I’m sure what you meant was not probable, but there’s a big difference and you can’t really blame Aquinas for misunderstanding you.

 

[Fragile]

I believe it can happen that way under certain circumstances, the Lord alone will judge that, but what if your “death bed” is in a car that was blind sided on the freeway, doesn’t leave much time for repentence!