Is there hope for me even though I am not Roman Catholic?

[whatisthetruth]

Hi Rocky,

Thank you for you prayers, that is kind of you

I am sorry if you felt I ran away.
I promise you I do not run away, I just stopped and take a temporary breather.

Can I ask you a small favor, ask me first in PM next time you have any question, if it should happen again, as to why I am not answering a post?

Can you do that?

Please,

I appreciate it:thumbsup:

truth

I find it interesting that Whatisthetruth chooses to reply to Calmdownwiswin’s statement on another thread and then *posts it here, *instead of replying to Philthy, who respectfully challenged Whatisthetruth. I guess it is easier to run away. Whatisthetruth is and has been in my prayers.

 

[whatisthetruth]

Hi philthy,

I am so sorry I let all this back up,
I pasted all your previous posts.

I will condense as best as possible…

Lets start #300

Hi WhatistheTruth -

Can I ask you a question? When (as in what year) were you born again?

You can ask me anytime.

I came to know the Lord, born again 11-14-99
I was baptized by immersion, 12-31-99

I’ll stop talking now because I can tell Im overanalyzing and you probably couldnt care less!

I do care Philthy, I do not know what I have said that caused you to say that I do not care,

Please tell me what caused you to say that so I can fix it

#304

Hi Philthy, I am so sorry
No problem…you have been busy busy busy!

Thank you for acknowledging, I am sorry I let this get behind

A bit disingenuous to disguise your curiosity of what Catholics believe as “Is there hope?”, but not too bad.

I could have been more upfront, and told you the reason for the question. I felt I could draw the raw truth of what you all believed if you did not know I already believe I have assurance of salvation.

I found out from this thread some still believe that today. I received a number of PM telling me there was **NO HOPE **that I better consider returning to the Catholic church…

And while we are being honest, the particular wording that you use as your personal revelation from God of " if I should die right now…" takes away some of its luster.

I do appreciate your concern
I agree with you, especially if something like the following ever happened.

I apologize in advance for this being long, but as you say…
“And while we are being honest”,

If while driving you to your surprise party I said to you, "Philthy get ready because when you open the door there is going to be a lot of people shouting “SURPRISE” and then we will all sing Happy Birthday to you.

How would you feel about me??

Philthy, when it comes to knowing for sure I have eternal life, I equate it too what I mentioned to jmcrae about the wedding vow.

When a couple who sincerely falls deeply in love with each other gets engaged, they make a committment “to honor and to cherish” each other BEFORE the wedding. Those virtues were existent at some time even before the engagement.

The day of the wedding those words take a different meaning…
They are now committing **to honor and to cherish each other ** as they have been in the engagement, but now they make thier commitment before many witnesses and in the mighty presence of GOD to do so *** every day *** of thier lives till death do they part.

cont…

 

[whatisthetruth]

cont…

I made a one time committment to my wife on my wedding day. Having made that committment does not give me permission to trash her like dirt or take advantage of her?.

Every day of my life after that initial committment vow, I live my life committed to my commitment to love and to cherish…to death do we part.

Every day of my life I learn more and more about her as we grow closer and closer in our relationship and deaper in love, now for 25years.

Was my marriage life without fail thriugh the years?
absolutely not.

But thank God I married a Christian woman who is strong in her faith who just like** Jesus **is able to forgive and to forget.

I know for a fact that if I let myself cheat on my wife, she would be awefully hurt, but she would forgive me.
How do I know this, I have faith in God that his spirit lives in the heart of my wife.

However, **knowing this DOES NOT give me a “green light” to commit adultery till my heart is content. **

If I ever entertain the thought, then
how strong was the vow I took on my wedding day?.

Even my wife the other day told me about other challenges we are currently dealing with, she has “dropped the stone” she was holding.

Philthy, that in a nutshell is how I look at God’s promise of assurance of salvation.

Because of the precious blood of Jesus and the faithful committment of repentance and confession of His children, God has also dropped the stone so that we may have eternal life with Him.

Problem is, I believe the difficulty in trusting people is because there are a lot of failed marriages and too many broken promises overall.

That initial trust which was there is eventually broken.

Not only does it make it difficult to trust people today, for some it may also be difficult to trust almighty God in His word.

Here is the reason for it,

The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy(all the trust one can have in God) ; I (Jesus) have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. John 10:10

I made an initial committment of faith and trust to Jesus on
11-14-99 and got baptized on 12-31-99

Every day since then and every day to come I committ to relive that initial committment, **to love and cherish my Lord **according to His word till death do we meet in heaven

My desire is to honor and cherish God every day of my life. I never intend of falling short of that desire.
I thank God by his devine grace, He is willing to and promised me to forgive and to forget my sin when I offer Him a sincere repentance and confession from my heart.

Here is why I value having assurance,

it is not while I am living, it is knowing if tragedy strikes knowing I am going to die.

It scares me to think about all the people who perished on 9-11.

I am sure though there were people who went to heaven not knowing for sure of there destiny would be heaven when they took thier last breath.

Just imagine the difference of emotion had they known for sure like the good thief did.

It would probably be a fair statement that all who perished were lost for eternity, I hope I am wrong.

If only had they known in thier “final moment” of thier life, had they made a faith decision for Jesus and repented and confessed, they would have left this earth with the devine peace knowing for sure eternity in heaven was waiting for them.

I believed the good thief experienced just that in his dying breaths.

That is my passion, my heart and belief right there.

Bring God’s good news of salvation to the lost.

We never know when we will face our own “final moment”

Doesn’t God know the heart of every prayer of repentance and confession said to Him by his faithful children?

philthy, I believe I am not wrong when I say this,

You are one of God’s faithful Children.

You and all the Catholics I met here are I believe one of the most devoted faithful Christians who are not lost, but not have fully accepted the magnitude of God’s gift of salvation.
I believe that from the bottom of my heart.

There I said it. Why it took this long, I have no idea.
Since I am here I appreciate all you prayer to come back to the Catholic church, which is evidence of your faith.

I have said prayers too for all of you,

NOT ONE of those prayers was for conversion but many prayers for the day, one of the most faithful Godly people I know, exclaim

If I were to die right now, I know for sure I will be in :heaven: Thanks be to God.

My fear is the response I am about to get… that I am wrong that will never happen.

My response will be, if you believe that, do not tell me I am wrong tell God in a personal prayer that He is not giving you assurance of salvation when God even said in the bible,

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Rom 10:9

I hope I am wrong in my fear. I just might be pleasantly surprised,
Praise God.

God bless

truth

 

[fbl9]

hi whatis…St Luke 12;39paraphrased if the home onwer knew when the thief was coming he would be prepared for him… i don’t undserstand the value of “assurance”.after doing my acts of penance i would not say i had a feeling of assuance but rather a feeling of peace and a new hope.i noticed you put the date you were born again as being before your baptism.St.Luke 3;5 born agian of WATER and Holy Sprit.

 

[whatisthetruth]

Hi Philthy and all,

Wow, I never expected that to come out the way it did. I admit I have trouble expressing myself.
Well now you all know my passion and my heart.

Philthy, to contimue,

May I offer some advice?

sure

You need to stop this line of justifying your reason for being here. It isnt quite the truth as I see it.

I know and I apologize

I am typing this as I am reading your comments.

You were a Catholic in name only.

I accept the fact I went to Catholic church for 30 years, however I was not Catholic, thank you for correcting me

I have never ONCE seen you actually quote the Catechism in your “search” for what Church teaching is. Why is that?

I am a bible only believing Christian.

The Chatecism will aide in understanding the Catholic faith and I am happy you found God’s love and Jesus through its teachings as well as the bible and the council of trent and vatican documents,

I have found God’s love and Jesus through the bible.

**Secondly, your claim that “some still believe” that there is no hope for you is both a distortion of the truth and, frankly, irrelevent. **

irrelevent?? I beg to differ and here is why.

Imagine for second being one of the Catholics, lets say “George”, who in PM told me he believed what Father Muller said in His web site, without exception and ask me why I would doom myself? George tells me I been exposed to the church and if I refuse to ome back, God will not save me.

from,
geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/qsalus.htm

1. Can a Christian whatisthetruth be saved, who has left the true Church of Christ, the Holy Catholic Church?

whatisthetruth can not be saved , because the Church of Christ is the kingdom of God on earth, and whatisthetruth has left that kingdom, and shut himself out from the kingdom of Christ in heaven.

Scary isn’t it. I promise you there are more Catholics like “George” who believe just like I did when I was in Catholic church.

Imagine, if I was not whatisthetruth but “George’s” brother who has been exposed to the Catholic faith, but refuses to be Catholic and now is “Protestant”.

Can you imagine the internal family struggle knowing and believing in your that your loved one is lost for eternity unless they return to the Catholic church.?

Since George knows his brother is eternally separated from God because he left the Catholic church, every time he encourages his brother to come back, his brother responds I am not coming back.

George says, “I love you brother and you are in my prayers”
His brother responds,
"thank you. My church believes in assurance of salvation, which apparently you do not believe God gives you. You are in my prayers that you will trust God in your own salvation.

I promise you the above scenario is happening all over the world.
maybe even in this community.

I say that because, if I were Catholic and God only knows if I would still be believing my brother is destined for hell if he DID NOT come back to the Catholic Church.

You see, I do have a brother who not only left the Catholic church he was exposed to, but left God entirely. He is lost

I am hoping and praying he returns to **any church **who worships Jesus Christ. After reading that, I promise you there are Catholic who will believe, and if my brother does not return to the Catholic Church he still is lost for eternity.

I invite anyone who believes that to PM me. I will keep your name in secret. But I am curious.

cont…

 

[whatisthetruth]

Philthy and all who read my post, I believe that the TIME IS NOW

Do you remember the 70’s band YES? They have an old song that you would love called, Time and a Word. It goes something like this…
"There’s a time and the time is now and its right for me, its right for me, and the time is now.
There’s a word and the word is love and its right for me, its right for me and the word is love."

I do not remember, but how fitting that now is the time I poured out my heart and passion.

You can love me or hate me but right NOW I can not be any more honest and sincere than I am being, right NOW

irrelevent??

After reading the scenario above and my personal experience with my brother, do you believe it is still irrelevent Philthy?

Every single person that has spoken regarding your salvation has been careful to make it conditional. Deep down inside you really dont want to hear that answer - Im not sure why, but that is between you and our Lord.

I am sorry I was not more upfront.
Maybe I was wrong.
I felt I was doing the right thing in trying to understand you and anybody elses opinions and/or beliefs BEFORE telling you about me.

I hope you understand why.

Just imagine if I first came aboard and on my 1st thread I stated why God called me here.
A letter like the following would not be received to well and all kinds of “caution” flags would not be raised.

Agree?? Try to be honest

BTW, God sent me here through a referral by another Catholic I met somewhere else on line. It wasn’t long before I realized God’s calling.

Consider the following,

Hi all, I am new at this site. I am a bible alone believing Christian in an AOG church and here is why God called me here.

1st) to be at least one voice on behalf of the Catholics to speak up. Anytime I hear someone saying anything durrogatory about Catholics, I will definitely take a stand.

2nd) you have a misunderstanding of many non-Catholic Christians, especially in the area of salvation.

Your experience with protestants have been tainted with the misunderstanding of the “once saved always saved” sin as I desire and God will forgive way of living.

This is not what I or many Non Catholics believe.

3rd) we all are Christian brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ.

4th) since we all believe in Jesus Christ I believe you can experience 100% assurance of heaven just like I do, thanks be to God he gave us His devine promise.

5th ) lets team up, stop our internal feuds and differences, and go out to the lost world who refuse Jesus and show them the truth of God’s love so He can devinely break the chains of bondage and set the prisoners of Satan free.

for more information on my passion and heart see my signature letter,

Who is in?

Let me know.

How do you believe you would respond to that post?

Philthy, I appreciated talking with you the first time I met you.
I care about you just as much a I care about anyone else.
I admire your faith and dedication.
Lets keep this going.
I feel something going on here.
I can not explain it.** But something is simmering**.

Thank you for your kind thoughts, words and prayers. God knows I need them…I have also enjoyed - and benefited from - our exchanges.

God bless you all

truth

 

[jmcrae]

I have never ONCE seen you actually quote the Catechism in your “search” for what Church teaching is. Why is that?

I am a bible only believing Christian.

Yes, but you were not asking, “Hmm, what do I think the Bible says?”; you were asking, “What does the Catholic Church teach?”

The way to find out what the Catholic Church teaches is to look in the Catechism.

(Don’t worry - looking in the Catechism will not cause you to go blind.)

Secondly, your claim that “some still believe” that there is no hope for you is both a distortion of the truth and, frankly, irrelevent.

irrelevent?? I beg to differ and here is why.

Imagine for second being one of the Catholics, lets say “George”, who in PM told me he believed what Father Muller said in His web site, without exception and ask me why I would doom myself? George tells me I been exposed to the church and if I refuse to ome back, God will not save me.

So, does George tell God what to do, then?

If you are already convinced that George is wrong, then why does it even matter to you what he says or thinks?

It is only if you think he might be right, that you should carefully investigate his claim, to see whether it might be true, or not. But if you are firmly convinced that he is wrong, then for your own peace of mind, all you need to do is ignore him.

 

[fbl9]

hi again what is… how was the roman sodlier’s daughter healed.? by the FAITH of her father.how is an infant baptism valid? by the faith of the parents. salvation comes from the latin word salve to heal. we are born with a wound that seperates us from God (orginal sin) how is that wound healed? by baptism …as i have told you before nobody has ever repented of original sin. yet you insist one has to repent to be baptised.you call me your brother but your insistance that infant baptism is invalid makes me only your half brother at best, i come to you as your full brother because i know who i am and that is a son of the Most high God.how did i become His son? by being baptised that’s how.how do i prove i am His son? by living out the truths He has reveiled to us through His church.how do i know that i am in His church?i just have to look out the window and see the mess the rest of christianty is in. some say it doesn’t matter which church one goes to because it is all good. nuts i say i could drop all what the church teachs and still find some form of a “christain” church to believe God in.the case i find for the need of apostolic succession can be found in book by the prophet Ezechiel ch 47. this stream is one -continous -river there is no other source then at the temple.

 

[whatisthetruth]

hi whatis…St Luke 12;39paraphrased if the home onwer knew when the thief was coming he would be prepared for him… i don’t undserstand the value of “assurance”.after doing my acts of penance i would not say i had a feeling of assuance but rather a feeling of peace and a new hope.i noticed you put the date you were born again as being before your baptism.St.Luke 3;5 born agian of WATER and Holy Sprit.

hi fb,

Maybe God did not mean for me to be baptize of water and spirit on the same day. I have heard in the church of people who came out of the water from being baptized and immediately began praying and speaking in tongues,

So it does happen

I also been baptized with the holy spirit, I can not p(name removed by moderator)oint the day. right now. It was after 12 31 99

i don’t undserstand the value of “assurance”.

When I was going to Catholic church, I know I never believed I had assurance.

But just imagine if you were trapped by yourself in a tragic unexpected life threatening situation, and had an unconfessed mortal sin on your soul.

How valuable do you believe assurance would be to you then?

God’s mercy and grace my friend is available 24/7 and is a sincere prayer of confession and repentance away.

I know you trust the Lord, you are one of his called. If you were in a situation, confess and repent and God will forgive.

I believe that.

question is, Do you believe God will forgive you in that situation?

truth

 

[whatisthetruth]

Yes, but you were not asking, “Hmm, what do I think the Bible says?”; you were asking, “What does the Catholic Church teach?”
The way to find out what the Catholic Church teaches is to look in the Catechism.

Thank you for the advice jmcrae and I have read parts of the chatecism. I value yours and everyone else beliefs is the reason I ask.

So, does George tell God what to do, then?

absolutely not

It is only if you think he might be right, that you should carefully investigate his claim, to see whether it might be true, or not

But if you are firmly convinced that he is wrong, then for your own peace of mind, all you need to do is ignore him.

If you are already convinced that George is wrong, then why does it even matter to you what he says or thinks?

I agree with you but…
**Did you see the part about Georges’ brother

and my own personal experience with my brother?**

If you saw the situation with my brother, i believe you will find the answer why it matters to me.

truth

 

[AquinasT]

truth,

Catholics have a different understanding of salvation than most other Christians and a big part of that is that Catholics see the “social” aspect of sin as opposed to simply the individualistic approach that you (and other Christians) seem to take. You gave an example from your own life involving your brother and the way you hurt him when you were younger. You say that you have made your peace with God concerning your actions against your brother, and now its up to your brother to come to you when he’s ready. It sounds like you believe that sin is just between the individual and God and that you will not be held responsible for any harm your sin may have caused in your relationship with others. Apparently, as long as you “made right” with God, you are A-okay and on your way to heaven. Meanwhile your brother is just going to have to get over it.

Catholics believe that the damage caused by sin to our relationships with one another must be dealt with even after forgiveness has been sought and received. Telling God you are sorry and praying for His forgiveness are important, and He does forgive, but the hurt caused by sin remains and must have consequences. The idea that I can simply wash away my own guilt and any penalty for my sins and then live my life as though nothing ever happened while the person whom I hurt with my sin might remain hurt for the rest of their life does not sound like a just God. That does not sound like “forgiveness” but rather the removal of any personal responsibility. Where is the Justice in this? Jesus offers Forgiveness, but not at the expense of Justice. Or else God is not a Just God.

When my children misbehave I punish them. They may say they are sorry, and I immediately forgive them, but there is a punishment to be had. When that punishment is met I embrace them and justice has been served. Purgatory serves this purpose as does any temporal punishment or penance that a sinner might undergo upon receiving God’s forgiveness. Catholicism addresses this issue of Justice while fully acknowledging that Forgiveness is ours to be had.

This is a big problem within non-Catholic/Protestant/Evangelical Christian churches. There is a strong sense of God’s forgiving mercy, but not as much of a sense of His justice. There is this idea that Jesus’ death on the Cross is the only suffering that has any meaning, and that our own suffering on behalf of sin could not possibly have relevance except in the context of hell. There is the idea that the 'believer" need only accept Jesus and His forgiveness and its all “water under the bridge” but this does not address the harm done to others by his sin. You want a simply cut-and-dried answer to salvation, as though you are either %100 percent wiped clean and ready for heaven or %100 dirty with sin and destined for hell, but the fact is the complexity of sin and human existence is such that it is difficult to separate my own salvation from the salvation of others. Catholics see the “communion” of believers in this light. We affect each other’s path to salvation. It is not simply a “me-and-Jesus” way of looking at salvation.

Even the thief on the cross first corrected those around him and tried to open their ears to the truth of Jesus before He turned to the Lord for forgiveness. It was after this action (his “good work”) offered to his fellow man that Jesus promised him paradise.

Thomas

 

[jmcrae]

I agree with you but…
Did you see the part about Georges’ brother

George’s brother can handle himself; it is none of our business.

and my own personal experience with my brother?

Your brother has also renounced the Faith, and has chosen his own path, just like you.

Why would you forbid him to do what you yourself do? Just because he comes up with different results than you do, when he interprets for himself instead of following the guidance of the Church?

 

[whatisthetruth]

Hi fb,

** how was the roman sodlier’s daughter healed.? by the FAITH of her father**

Agree

**.how is an infant baptism valid? by the faith of the parents. **

Agree to disagree

I know you can make an argument in scripture, I forget where that it says the family was baptized.

( isn’t it assumed then there obviously are babies involved in families so they were baptized too?)

there is also a verse in scripture which states repent and be baptized.
(which of course babies cant repent.)

It is through that baptism that I believe God not only washes away any repentant sin at baptism but also the wound from original sin.

I know that is not what you believe

salvation comes from the latin word salve to heal. we are born with a wound that seperates us from God (orginal sin) how is that wound healed? by baptism

Agree and I believe as stated above Christians outside the Catholic church do not need to be baby baptized to heal the wound of original sin

as i have told you before nobody has ever repented of original sin.

How can you repent of which you have no knowledge on how you sinned?

yet you insist one has to repent to be baptised.

with the exception of infant baptism, what other way is there to be baptized?

**you call me your brother but your insistance that infant baptism is invalid makes me only your half brother at best, **

Sorry to hear you say that, well at least I am your half brother.
We we get to heaven, will it matter?

But seriously, let me try to explain myself.

And understand fb you and I do not have to answer to each other, we have to answer to God.

My grandchildren will be braught up in my church they will not be infant baptized. They will be baptized when God calls them and they make a faith decision for Jesus Christ. The same decision I made 11-14-99

However I AM NOT judging whether or not God grace does or does not heal an infant of the wound of original sin, only God knows.

My concern is, once that infant grows up,
how does the adult Catholic obey the command in the bible to repent and then be baptized?

If you believe infant baptism satisfies, repent and then be baptized in scripture, that is not for me to judge, only God knows the truth.

Because repent and then be baptized is in scripture
is the reason I got baptized again as an adult, even though I was infant baptized.

**i come to you as your full brother because i know who i am **

As i come to you

**and that is a son of the Most high God. **

Amen

how did i become His son? by being baptised that’s how.

Did you become His son by being baptized,

an infant

as an adult

both

Did you become His son and prove you were his son by

ONLY being baptized and by living out the truths He has reveiled to us through His church

or

anything else?

**how do i know that i am in His church?

i just have to look out the window and see the mess the rest of christianty is in. **

sad isn’t it?

**some say it doesn’t matter which church one goes to because it is all good. nuts **

As long as the church has thier core believes in Jesus Christ according to the will of God, I beleive that is what matters.

i say i could drop all what the church teachs and still find some form of a “christain” church to believe God in.the case i find for the need of apostolic succession can be found in book by the prophet Ezechiel ch 47. this stream is one -continous -river there is no other source then at the temple.

Quite possibly you can.

FB, I am curious

Please consider this,

I am a person who makes a living in the mountains and I do not belong to any church in town. I am familiar with them all but have not decided which one to join.

One day as you are driving through the mountains, just by coincidence, you run out of gas outside my home. You knock on my door, give you gas and before leaving I invite you for dinner.
Before dinner we say grace and I also pray a prayer of repentance and confession.

We spend a little time after dinner and you find out that I was never baptized and I have no church to call home. I shared with you how I found Jesus Christ in the bible and I am praying to God to reveal to me His plan for my life.

Would I be your Christian brother at this point?

Yes_______

No________

WHY??

when we were done talking and as you were leaving, I said to you,

FB, “I do not know if we will ever meet again, I look forward to the day I see you in heaven, God bless you.”

And as soon as I said that I had a cardiac arrest and died right there.

How confident are you I am in heaven?

WHY??

thank you

Truth

 

[jmcrae]

My grandchildren will be braught up in my church they will not be infant baptized. They will be baptized when God calls them and they make a faith decision for Jesus Christ. The same decision I made 11-14-99

But if they die before that, then they will go to Hell because of Original Sin. (Original Sin makes the “default destination” of every human being to be Hell. It is only through Baptism that this sin is washed away, and the person is set on to the path of Heaven.)

Please consider this,

I am a person who makes a living in the mountains and I do not belong to any church in town. I am familiar with them all but have not decided which one to join.

One day as you are driving through the mountains, just by coincidence, you run out of gas outside my home. You knock on my door, give you gas and before leaving I invite you for dinner.
Before dinner we say grace and I also pray a prayer of repentance and confession.

We spend a little time after dinner and you find out that I was never baptized and I have no church to call home. I shared with you how I found Jesus Christ in the bible and I am praying to God to reveal to me His plan for my life.

Would I be your Christian brother at this point?

Yes_______

No__X__

WHY??

Because you are not yet Baptised. Your soul is still mired with the stain of Original Sin - the sin of Adam that caused the whole human race to be cut off from God and destined for Hell.

when we were done talking and as you were leaving, I said to you,

FB, “I do not know if we will ever meet again, I look forward to the day I see you in heaven, God bless you.”

And as soon as I said that I had a cardiac arrest and died right there.

How confident are you I am in heaven?

Not at all. In fact I would be very sure that you are in Hell.

WHY??

Because you were never Baptized into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, by means of Water and the Spirit, and thus, you are still immersed in the sin of Adam.

Pretty words do not wash away the sin of Adam; only Baptism can do this.

 

[whatisthetruth]

Hi Aquinas

I understand all that you are saying. That is why I gave I gave my wedding vow scenario.

When I confess before the Lord it is not the end it is only the beginning, Yes there is hurt that results from sin, in some cases a lot more pain which is caused than I can possibly make up for.

However, every day of my life I take a oath a vow between Jesus, God and my self,

to recommit my faithalone in Jesus Christ which is preceeded and followed by repentance.
A turning away from sin, a hatred for the things that God hates, and a love for the things God loves
A growing in holiness and a desire not to be like…the world…but to be like Jesus Christ"
that quote is by Paul Washer

I live by it

It is raw truth of what i believe God wants

God bless

truth

truth,

Catholics have a different understanding of salvation than most other Christians and a big part of that is that Catholics see the “social” aspect of sin as opposed to simply the individualistic approach that you (and other Christians) seem to take. You gave an example from your own life involving your brother and the way you hurt him when you were younger. You say that you have made your peace with God concerning your actions against your brother, and now its up to your brother to come to you when he’s ready. It sounds like you believe that sin is just between the individual and God and that you will not be held responsible for any harm your sin may have caused in your relationship with others. Apparently, as long as you “made right” with God, you are A-okay and on your way to heaven. Meanwhile your brother is just going to have to get over it.

Catholics believe that the damage caused by sin to our relationships with one another must be dealt with even after forgiveness has been sought and received. Telling God you are sorry and praying for His forgiveness are important, and He does forgive, but the hurt caused by sin remains and must have consequences. The idea that I can simply wash away my own guilt and any penalty for my sins and then live my life as though nothing ever happened while the person whom I hurt with my sin might remain hurt for the rest of their life does not sound like a just God. That does not sound like “forgiveness” but rather the removal of any personal responsibility. Where is the Justice in this? Jesus offers Forgiveness, but not at the expense of Justice. Or else God is not a Just God.

When my children misbehave I punish them. They may say they are sorry, and I immediately forgive them, but there is a punishment to be had. When that punishment is met I embrace them and justice has been served. Purgatory serves this purpose as does any temporal punishment or penance that a sinner might undergo upon receiving God’s forgiveness. Catholicism addresses this issue of Justice while fully acknowledging that Forgiveness is ours to be had.

This is a big problem within non-Catholic/Protestant/Evangelical Christian churches. There is a strong sense of God’s forgiving mercy, but not as much of a sense of His justice. There is this idea that Jesus’ death on the Cross is the only suffering that has any meaning, and that our own suffering on behalf of sin could not possibly have relevance except in the context of hell. There is the idea that the 'believer" need only accept Jesus and His forgiveness and its all “water under the bridge” but this does not address the harm done to others by his sin. You want a simply cut-and-dried answer to salvation, as though you are either %100 percent wiped clean and ready for heaven or %100 dirty with sin and destined for hell, but the fact is the complexity of sin and human existence is such that it is difficult to separate my own salvation from the salvation of others. Catholics see the “communion” of believers in this light. We affect each other’s path to salvation. It is not simply a “me-and-Jesus” way of looking at salvation.

Even the thief on the cross first corrected those around him and tried to open their ears to the truth of Jesus before He turned to the Lord for forgiveness. It was after this action (his “good work”) offered to his fellow man that Jesus promised him paradise.

Thomas

 

[J_C]

However, every day of my life I take a oath a vow between Jesus, God and my self,

to recommit my faithalone in Jesus Christ which is preceeded and followed by repentance.
A turning away from sin, a hatred for the things that God hates, and a love for the things God loves
A growing in holiness and a desire not to be like…the world…but to be like Jesus Christ"
that quote is by Paul Washer

I live by it

It is raw truth of what i believe God wants

God bless

truth

hello again whatis. Since you are so satisfied in your sect, and since all your questions about Catholic faith have been answered so many times by so many people, let me ask you, why are you still here?

I realize that you deny that you are proseletyzing but that just doesn’t ring true.

it seems to me that your comments long ago reached the point of redundancy.

 

[AquinasT]

truth,
My point would be that %100 assurance of your PERSONAL salvation is not a part of Catholic theology precisely because our salvation is not merely a PERSONAL - “me-and-Jesus” - “all you have to do is believe and your saved” - event. It is a process that involves our incorporation into Christ’s Body. He gave us the means to encounter His Body here on earth through the Church (the Body of Christ) and the Eucharist (also the Body of Christ) and hopefully we will achieve final union in His Body in heaven (the Communion of Saints - the Church Triumphant) - but it is always in this context of communion - a social aspect that you seem to lack - that we as Catholics understand salvation. We cannot be %100 assured of that union until it is achieved in heaven. You are asking Catholics to join you in celebrating %100 assurance but in doing so we would have to see salvation as a “me and Jesus” phenomenon, and it is not.
Thomas

 

[fbl9]

hi what is to your scene i n the mountains i would say you are my brother in desire.since i never left yet when you dropped over i would baptise on the spot.see baptism is not only conveyed by full immersion because in your case it would not be possible. same for those who are to sick for such a thing. let’s go back before such luxuries as central heat. doing a full immersion baptism when it is -30 F would most likely kill a heathly person let alone some one who is ill. your claim i don’t beleive baptism also washes away sin is totally wrong NO catholic beleives it doesn’t.if i were never baptised i can be baptised as an adult in the same manner an infant is baptised. in this case baptism heals the wound of original sin and washes away my personal sin.jsut asking how do you know your pastor is telling you the truth and i am not?wasn’t that St John the Baptist’s line"repent and be baptised"?

 

[whatisthetruth]

JMCRAE
**George’s brother can handle himself; it is none of our business. **

And why not pray for him like you offer me prayer? You make it your business to at least pray for me, why not him?

And btw, isn’t he your Christian brother right now, who just has not found Christ yet?

How about if George’s brother is actually your brother sibling too?

Now it becomes a little closer.
Is it still none of your business?

Your brother has also renounced the Faith, and has chosen his own path, just like you.

No not like me, I said my brother is totally lost away from God.

i.e. He said outright when he dies he will rot in the box and that is it.

**Why would you forbid him to do what you yourself do? **

I would not forbid him if he found Christ which he has not.

Please re read what I wrote

**Just because he comes up with different results than you do, when he interprets for himself instead of following the guidance of the Church? **

He admitted to me he is following himself to the grave and rotting then its over,
Does that sound like he is following the guidance of any Church? you know?

Thank you

truth

 

[jmcrae]

JMCRAE
**George’s brother can handle himself; it is none of our business. **

And why not pray for him like you offer me prayer? You make it your business to at least pray for me, why not him?

And btw, isn’t he your Christian brother right now, who just has not found Christ yet?

How about if George’s brother is actually your brother sibling too?

Now it becomes a little closer.
Is it still none of your business?

Your brother has also renounced the Faith, and has chosen his own path, just like you.

No not like me, I said my brother is totally lost away from God.

i.e. He said outright when he dies he will rot in the box and that is it.

**Why would you forbid him to do what you yourself do? **

I would not forbid him if he found Christ which he has not.

Please re read what I wrote

**Just because he comes up with different results than you do, when he interprets for himself instead of following the guidance of the Church? **

He admitted to me he is following himself to the grave and rotting then its over,
Does that sound like he is following the guidance of any Church? you know?

Thank you

truth

My point is that neither are you - you are not following the guidance of the Church, either.

You and your brother have both elevated your Ego to God; the only difference is that you have named your Ego “Jesus,” and your brother has recognized his Ego for what it is; a dead-end.