Is there hope for the Novus Ordo?

[tcraig]

And here the MP was issued because folks claimed an ‘affection’ and ‘attachment’ to TLM when it appears it is really just a port in the storm to run to.

For me and my family, and many others I’ve known, the EF has been a “port in the storm”. Do I love it? Yes, I do. But I also love a beautiful, reverent NO mass, even though I’ve never belonged to a parish which celebrated one properly or without major abuses.

At one point we were driving two hours one way in order to attend a TLM, because the state we were living in was a Catholic wasteland and we had the formation of our children at stake. I certainly wouldn’t drive such distances if I had a parish like Assumption Grotto.

There’s something really wrong when Catholics are driven to such lengths in order to attend a reverent, orthodox mass.

 

[BritishCatholic]

Hi British, If you rather not give the Hawaii Church, But can tell on what Island?
I live on Kauai & have attended Mass in 3 parishes and there were a couple of abuses, but I do pray our bishop will take steps to stop any abuse!
Mahalo!

Sure thing. It was on the Big Island.

 

[BritishCatholic]

Not quite. There are some really abusive NO masses out there among them are the clown mass, the Barney mass and there are others to be pointed out. I went to a Diocese NO that was very bad, now yes some can be good. TLM is better, imho.

Thank you. :tiphat:

 

[BritishCatholic]

I think you’ll find the New York area to be abit more on the traditional side than say Hawaii is, so in that respect, geographically your in the right place.

But I do think that paishoners should take the bull by the horns so to speak, and join your local parish council if their are things you don’t like about mass or abuses. Make your voice heard, and get others that feel the same way to get involved to. I think sometimes parish priests try things or do things with good intentions, because their parishoners seem to like it, and attendence is good, but in reality they may not like it, but they keep their mouths shut.

We now have a Pope with traditional leanings. Put your voice with his and try to change your Churchs ways. Point out to your Church what the Pope is saying these days, and try to use what he says as the impetus for change.

We shouldn’t have to shop around for the right church…

I once, as you say, “voiced my opinion” during a parish liturgy meeting and it didn’t go so well…I dare not try it again.

And I completely agree with your last statement. Since when did so many people have to go “church hopping”? And I’m not being too critical. I once attended Mass where it was a Children’s Liturgy for the scheduled Mass, and, like someone above me stated, it was just like something out of Sesame Street-in fact, it was just like it. No matter what anyone says, I’ll be damned if I go to a Mass where Father is wearing Big Bird Feet. (please excuse the language, but we’re all adults here).

 

[iviking]

No, there is no hope for it if you ask me. It can learn from the TLM, and be more reverent. I will pray it dies out of itself, as it most likely will.

Definition of the NO:

“The Lord’s Supper or Mass is a sacred meeting or assembly of the People of God, met together under the presidency of the priest, to celebrate the memorial of the Lord. Thus the promise of Christ, “where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them”, is eminently true of the local community in the Church (Mt. XVIII, 20)”.

If I had the opportunity to attend a TLM only, I would never hesitate.

 

[mahalia]

But there are reverent Novus Ordo Masses, right? I mean, just because several parishes are terrible, that doesn’t mean that they’re all like that?

Your response would be greatly appreciated.

The NOM is very very different in the USA than Europe, for example. Some things I read about here at CA, I have never seen in my country or some other countries I’ve visited.
Yes, there is hope for the Novus Ordo. In my country there are no traditional latin masses, and the one we have is very reverent.
I hope and pray that your bishops will be strong enough to stop the terror od liturgical dances and other horrible irreverent practices.

 

[iviking]

I think what we should ask ourselves is: Do we really want the NO mass to continue to exist?

 

[WanderAimlessly]

I think what we should ask ourselves is: Do we really want the NO mass to continue to exist?

Yes

It seems the traditionalists are trying to do to the Ordinary Form Mass what they have falsely accused other of doing to the Extraordinary Form Mass and that is abrogate it.

 

[pprimeau1976]

Actually, there is nothing wrong with the NO masses. It is all a matter of personal perspective. No two masses are the same due to local differences worldwide. You are missing the point if you only go there to point out “liturgical abuse” after “liturgical abuse”. People receive spirituality in different ways. Some prefer the older ways, some connected better with more modern interpretations. Neither way is wrong. You can get just as much grace from a modern NO as any TLM.

Not quite. There are some really abusive NO masses out there among them are the clown mass, the Barney mass and there are others to be pointed out. I went to a Diocese NO that was very bad, now yes some can be good. TLM is better, imho.

I think NewUlm1976 has a point. Regardless of what mass you go to, the graces bestowed upon you will be the same. The experience won’t be the same, but the graces bestowed upon you when receiving Holy Communion would be the same.

 

[cam100]

The NOM is very very different in the USA than Europe, for example. Some things I read about here at CA, I have never seen in my country or some other countries I’ve visited.

I’ve the same from others in Europe. It seems some of the worst abuses are in the USA. It is intetesting to hear about the mass situations in other countries. Sometimes we Americans forget that there is a big, and sometimes very diffferent, world outside the States. I’ve heard Americans ask why the pope doesn’t do something about the liturgical abuses. I think they forget that the pope also has to deal with problems in other countries that are quite different from the problems we are having here. The abuses are already prohibited. Sometimes I think people expect the pope to run over here and start making arrests. If I remember correctly, the USA contains only about 7% of the world’s Catholics.

 

[historyb]

I think NewUlm1976 has a point. Regardless of what mass you go to, the graces bestowed upon you will be the same. The experience won’t be the same, but the graces bestowed upon you when receiving Holy Communion would be the same.

I have to disagree here; Mass isn’t just the Eucharist it is the whole thing and while one can recieve grace in the Eucharist, to have an a bad Mass is to cheat one out of all the grace one could get.

In Protestantism we called it getting feed spiritually through the word, in a bad NO Mass people are being starved. imho

 

[Just_1_hr_a_wk]

I have to disagree here; Mass isn’t just the Eucharist it is the whole thing and while one can recieve grace in the Eucharist, to have an a bad Mass is to cheat one out of all the grace one could get.

In Protestantism we called it getting feed spiritually through the word, in a bad NO Mass people are being starved. imho

Just how does one know if they have been cheated of all the grace they could have gotten???

 

[historyb]

hmm, clown masses, barney masses, list goes on

 

[pprimeau1976]

I have to disagree here; Mass isn’t just the Eucharist it is the whole thing and while one can recieve grace in the Eucharist, to have an a bad Mass is to cheat one out of all the grace one could get.

In Protestantism we called it getting feed spiritually through the word, in a bad NO Mass people are being starved. imho

Just how does one know if they have been cheated of all the grace they could have gotten???

Not to mention the fact that if we go so far as to say that God distributes more graces at the extraordinary form Masses than the ordinary form Masses, what’s to stop someone from saying that God distributes more graces at a Latin Rite Mass than he does a Byzantine Rite Divine Liturgy?

All of this aside though, how can *anyone *quantify grace?

 

[historyb]

Not to mention the fact that if we go so far as to say that God distributes more graces at the extraordinary form Masses than the ordinary form Masses, what’s to stop someone from saying that God distributes more graces at a Latin Rite Mass than he does a Byzantine Rite Divine Liturgy?

All of this aside though, how can *anyone *quantify grace?

I am not saying more the TLM offers graces, I am saying at theses poorly done masses people are being ripped off.

 

[jimcav]

I once, as you say, “voiced my opinion” during a parish liturgy meeting and it didn’t go so well…I dare not try it again.

Unfortunately, these local parish councils can be very political.

There are people that have spent years on them and think they have some kind of seniority and they feel threatened from new-comers. You should still join, or at least still sit in on the meetings until they get used to seeing your face. Work your way into it slowly without jumping in to deep and to early. Eventually you can make your voice heard, and you might even be able to turn a few opinions around and get things done. Better yet, bring a friend or two that feel as you do, and really turn the council on its ear! There’s power in numbers (and safety to!), but it only really takes one determined, and patient, individual…

 

[jflare29]

I could tell you all a few horror stories of my own about finding a good Mass someplace, especially after moving about with the Air Force. (I love the scenery in the Spokane area, but the churches need help badly…)

Tell you a good fortune story though. I happened to ask someone at a bookstore if they knew of anyone in the area who knew something about Gregorian Chant. The lady suggested I contact the choir director at my current parish, St. Peter’s, in downtown Omaha. It’s still a NO, but it has a wonderful blend of old and new; the priests still face the congregation (though I had the vague impression that could change…), but we sing many of the responses in Latin, we use Chant for communion, and we have a pipe organ that’s a little bit basic (according to the director anyway), but still plays quite well.

God help us if we eventually lose either our pastor or our choir director.

I might be forced to move south to the Latin Mass that the Priestly Fraternity of St Peter offers…

John

 

[otjm]

On occasion, when I am not peeved or upset by “know it all” remarks, I am amused.

People who pontificate about the OF, and most particularly about the reverence or lack thereof are almost always speaking from a very limited experience of the Mass.

Let me put it another way: there are 18, 584 (as of 2006) parishes by one count, 19,081 by another (as of 2007).

I would be surprised if anyone in this forum has been to 50 parishes, but let’s assume 80 - that makes their experience 43 one hundredths of one percent of all the parishes in the US.

And we have, from that minute sampling, the ability to say that the OF is or is not reverent?

I have been to parishes in which the Mass in the OF was not particularly reverent; I have been to parishes where it is. I also have experience going back to early memories - pre grade school - that go back to well before Vatican 2, so I feel that I have some base with which to compare.

Part of the problem is that there are dioceses in which one is going to find more reverence in general than in other dioceses; and if one lives in a diocese that tends to play fast and loose with the GIRM and related rubrics, one can eaily have the impression that the OF is almost universally not reverent.

Most of what we have are impressions, as most of us do not have a wide experience across the US. It might help, when we are preparing to fire a salvo across the bow, to keep that in mind.

It also helps to keep in mind that the priests who by and large were the liturgical experimentalists are either retired, or heading towards retirement age; Vatican 2 happened two generations ago, and while people being ordained are tending (and have been tending for some time) to be older, the people who have been coming into the priesthood over the last 20 years have different agendas than those 21 to 40 years ago, or 50 years ago. Certainly my experience, and that of others I have spoke with in other areas of the US, is that the younger priests are not interested in liturgical experimentation, and as a group tend to be more reverent than some of their elder priests.

Pendulums swing, and the pendulum has been swinging back for some time now. Has it completely swung to the other end? Of course not. But are things changing? There certainly seems to be evidence of it; and if you are not experiencing it, it may be more due to your location than anything else.

Just some thoughts…

 

[historyb]

I am not saying more the TLM offers graces, I am saying at theses poorly done masses people are being ripped off.

Messed up the grammar and such here, it should read:

I am not saying the TLM offers more graces, I am saying at theses poorly done masses people are being ripped off.

That can happen when one has a cold.

 

[pnewton]

I have no doubt that the more things change, the more they stay the same. We will always have the fringe elements that abuse anything for self-grandeur. In the sixties and seventies, the counter-culture fringe grew wide and strong. As that generation dies out, I will we see their numbers lessed, but they will always be here. As much as some here would like it, the Church is not going to drop everything and go back to the TLM exclusively. That is a pipe dream of some.

I like the last question the OP asked best. Can reverence be found? Of course it can. It can be found far more often than the clowns or Barney that some love to dwell on. I have been to dozens of different parishes and only attended on parish where I felt reverence was lacking, and have never seen any major deviation, although I have seen small ones.

Still as far as reverence is concerned, my parish is extremely reverent. There is no question among the faithful as to the presence of the Lord. We honor the altar area, kneel and genuflect when appropriate and maintain a quiet sanctuary. We honor our Lord in my parish and at our Mass. We do not do many of the things that would please traditionalist a lot. Or Latin is sparse and we have no organ or choir for chant, yet it is not the people we are there to please. It is the Lord. I am confident that the majority of worshipers are there to focus on Christ and His presence there.

Therefore, if lex orandi lex credendi, then lex credendi lex orandi. If we have solid theology of the Eucharist and the sacrifice of the Mass, is there not every reason to have hope that our worship will reflect that?