Is there hostility toward non-habited sisters?

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Even when the Church herself enforced it?

Canon 669
§1 As a sign of their consecration and as a witness to poverty, religious are to wear
the habit of their institute, determined in accordance with the institute’s own law.
The emboldened words make the point, I think.

It is for each institute to decide what habit, if any, they are to wear. The canon does not mandate that every institute must wear a habit.

Without prejudice to that, universal law must be interpreted in conjunction with proper law, which may require a dispensation; and with custom, which the vision of the founders would certainly constitute.

Can. 27 Custom is the best interpreter of laws.
 
People died to wear their habits in the past when cultures persecuted them for it - DIED.

If the habit was so insignificant, why on earth would they die over it?
I haven’t said anywhere that the habit is insignifcant.

Please remember that I wear a habit myself.

I have said that it it is reserved for those who are required to wear it, which is not all religious.
If you look into the history of the Church, many great reforms came when nuns were NOT sticking to the habit - among other things. In St. Teresa of Avila’s time, for example, I believe the nuns were trying to dress more like the laity - altering their habits according to whim, etc. St. Teresa of Avila was very insistant that it was important to get the nuns back into a uniform habit and if I recall right, she was very persecuted for this and other things.
As a Carmelite, I’m very familiar with St Teresa’s reform. Note that her concern was that nuns had adapted religious dress to suit themselves and their own preferences, and she believed that they should return to the vision of their founders. Which is precisely what the church mandated in Pefectae Caritatis, leading to many institutes re-adopting the dress required by their founders and foundresses.
There is absolutely nothing non-charitable in what I said and I think it makes no sense to say otherwise. I did not insult anyone. I did not call anyone a dike or a liberal wacko or anything insulting at all. If I had, that would be another story.
I can’t agree with you:
I always thought that once they start throwing the habit out the window, you have to start questioning what else they will be willing to throw away.

They have thrown away so much sometimes they barely seem Catholic 😦
I believe that this is insulting and ad hominem. It doesn’t merely imply that people are ‘liberal’, it states that they may be apostate. I believe that is uncharitable.
I simply pointed out that it is not fair for others to deny the witness of their life to others.
As has been stated in this thread and in the others alluded to, public witness is not a universal calling within religious charisms.
I think it is more charitable to point something out to others than to stay silent.
By which logic, I would be failing in my responsibility as a Catholic and as a religious in not pointing out that I believe your words lacked courtesy.
Or if I say a priest that tells a couple that it is ok to use birth control is doing them a disservice, I would be considered uncharitable?
I would assume not, because you would be stating that there was a failure to address something that the church teaches is grave matter. Not wearing a habit, especially when mandated by constitution not to do so, is not a sin of any kind. The comparison is flawed.
Just curious how far this uncharitable thing will go…usually it starts with something small, like saying “oh, you should not be so worried about a habit - it is uncharitable” and the next thing you know…well, I do not think I need to go into details.
This sounds rather like you’re saying that because someone believes that the habit should only be worn when a religious charism demands it, they’ve embarked upon a slippery slope. Again, ad hominem and perilously close to using an opinion on the habit as a ‘purity test’ by which someone’s faith can be judged. If that’s not what you mean, it certainly sounds like it.

I would invite you to ask yourself why you think your opinion regarding religious habits should supercede the requirements of universal church law, and the proper law of religious institutes. You can express a preference for seeing religious in habits without criticising those religious who for good reason do not do so.

Best wishes to all.
 
It is uncharitable to point out what you said or to say you’re uncharitable.

That’s the problem with these statements, rebuking isn’t uncharitable.
Chris,

You seem to think that it’s OK for a poster to ‘rebuke’ tens or probably hundreds of thousands of people whom they’ve never met, based purely on the way they dress, whereas it’s wrong for me to ‘rebuke’ someone for what I believe is a poor choice of words that shows insufficient respect to religious. In other words, you think that the former is not uncharitable, but the latter is?

Why?🤷

Respect for religious - and for all of the faithful, I would hope - is a value that used to be prevalent in the church. I for one mourn the frequent absence of that respect for all far more than I mourn the fact that some religious institutes have been obedient to the call that they amend or abandon forms of dress that were wrongly imposed upon them centuries in the past.

That so many religious garner the hostility to which the OP referred simply for being obedient to their founders and foundresses - and the authority of the church, who called for this specific exercise of obedience - is truly sad.

Best wishes once again.
 
WOW.

So now I am hostile, not respectful, uncharitable, insulting, and lacking in courtesy - all because I stated an opinion that you do not agree with. :eek:

Um, who is doing the mud-slinging here?

So…you have completely blasted me when I blasted no one. I never called anyone who does not wear a habit hostile, not respectful, uncharitable, insulting, or lacking in courtesy. I never judged the state of their soul. But you are sure not hesitating to judge mine!

You even went so far to say that other religious who do not wear the habit “garner hostility” from words like mine. Now you seem to be accusing me of being hostile to religious who are not in a habit! :eek:

I am speechless. Not surprised though. Not at all.

But I will not be “shamed” into shutting up about how I feel because someone wants to call me uncharitable for disagreeing with them. That’s how the Church got into this mess to begin with. They let so many people scold them and say “you are uncharitable.” Next thing you know, half the Catholic doctrines are on a dusty old shelf somewhere and the pews are growing empty.

And it is absolutely true that many (not all, but many) religious who throw away the habit do end up on a slippery slope. Is it BECAUSE they threw away the habit? Is that where it all STARTED? I have no idea. But it CAN very well be a sign of questionable beliefs. I never said it was a PURITY TEST but it can be a tiny red flag. And I am not saying those who wear full religious garb cannot be in doctrinal error either - they sure can.

I did not say EVERY person who throws away the habit is in some kind of doctrinal error. But you go into so many of these communities, and where are their kneelers? Why are they standing at the consecration? Why are they slipping in Yoga and eastern traditions into their faiths? Why do they disbelieve in the devil? Why do they only preach the resurrection but never the cross? Where is their AUTHENTIC Catholic faith?

I also never said it is a "sin to not wear the habit.

Where did that come from?

See, while on the one hand you may find that some people who stand up for the religious habit can be harsh and insulting (and like I said in my original post, they can be rude when they start MUD SLINGING), there are those who find that the people on the other side of the fence are hiding behind this mask of “lets all hug everyone and sing kumbaya - just don’t anyone rock the boat.” And they use that to make those who think differently feel bad by saying things like “you are not charitable” in situations where no one was even being uncharitable.

That I find just as offensive as mud-slinging.

So, I am done with this topic of who is charitable and who is not.

The post was asking if there is hostility towards non-habited sisters, but I think this post shows there is a different kind of hostility towards those who back habited sisters and who have their reasons.

A very subtle, coy hostility.
 
WOW.

The post was asking if there is hostility towards non-habited sisters, but I think this post shows there is a different kind of hostility towards those who back habited sisters and who have their reasons.

A very subtle, coy hostility.
👍
 
So now I am hostile, not respectful, uncharitable, insulting, and lacking in courtesy - all because I stated an opinion that you do not agree with.
No. I made it very clear why I took exception to your words. Disagreement was never an issue, since there are many people who prefer religious to wear habits, and that view in and of itself is perfectly valid, of course. Disrespect was an issue.
So…you have completely blasted me when I blasted no one.
No again. 🤷

I don’t believe I ‘blasted’ you, but you’ve ‘blasted’ people in most of the contributions you’ve made to the thread. Some examples from this last post:
That’s how the Church got into this mess to begin with.
And it is absolutely true that many (not all, but many) religious who throw away the habit do end up on a slippery slope.
But it CAN very well be a sign of questionable beliefs.
Where is their AUTHENTIC Catholic faith?
I do not believe that those are measured criticisms.
I never judged the state of their soul. But you are sure not hesitating to judge mine!
Saying that you were disrespectful is not to judge the state of your soul, which no-one knows except God.

You are demanding a right to harshly criticise vast numbers of people that you’ve never met, but unwilling to accept even mild reproof yourself. That makes no sense.
Now you seem to be accusing me of being hostile to religious who are not in a habit!
You have been, throughout this thread. Including in the examples above.
I am speechless.
No, you’re really not. 🙂
I also never said it is a "sin to not wear the habit.

Where did that come from?
You compared not wearing a habit to objective sins. I pointed out that this was an invalid comparison.
the people on the other side of the fence are hiding behind this mask of “lets all hug everyone and sing kumbaya - just don’t anyone rock the boat.”
Critical thinking is not only welcome in the church but needed. *Ad hominem *condemnation is not. And again, conflict of opinion is a two-way street.
The post was asking if there is hostility towards non-habited sisters, but I think this post shows there is a different kind of hostility towards those who back habited sisters and who have their reasons.
There is a rather wonderful absurdity in suggesting that a habit-wearing religious has a negative agenda regarding other habit-wearing religious.😉
A very subtle, coy hostility.
Your own hostility is very open and unambiguous. Despite that, prayers and best wishes to you.

This part of the thread has obviously run it’s course, so I won’t engage with it further. But it is, unfortunately, an example of the kind of views that this subject seems to engender. Sorry that people reading the thread haven’t had more of substance to engage with, and apologies if I’ve responded once too often. A joyful Easter to all here on CAF.
 
I simply pointed out that it is not fair for others to deny the witness of their life to others.
Again, do you say the same thing about women called to a cloistered or a contemplative life? Those few communities which are growing are contemplative, afaik. They won’t be showing the “witness of their life” in day to day life. Sometimes the visual witness isn’t what God calls you for. 🙂

What apparition of Mary said it “bothered her”?

You can back habited sisters/brothers and I do as well. But you do NOT back habited sisters by trying to imply plainclothes sisters are less religious, you do NOT back them by comparing plainclothes sisters to a priest who promotes birth control, or claim there are “so many” communities which don’t believe in the devil (who?) That is NOT backing habited sisters.

If you want to back habited sisters, then you look at the spirit of their mission, you look at Church teaching, and you stand behind that. :yup: And yes, part of Church teaching is that not all sisters should wear a habit…the dedication of your life to God is what makes you a religious. You are on the vocation forum and I am assuming you are pursuing a vocation yourself maybe (?)…you should open your heart and look at the spirit of a mission first.

Just my opinion.
RE clothing, the nuns knew what they would be required to wear (have imposed on them) when they joined the order. To me it seems like you either go the whole way, look set apart and holy, show the world what you’re about, or look like a frumpily dressed woman in a blazer with lapel pin. I just think women should try to look attractive, or look like a religious, no in between. Just my opinion.
Your dichotomy is pretty broken…look like “a religious”? I suppose you need to wear a habit? So Mother Teresa didn’t look like “a religious”, in spite of all the good she does, and instead she should have concentrated on “looking attractive” instead? And not just attractive but fashionable as well? Is that really what God or the Church teaches? Hmm…I don’t know about that! 😛
 
Again, do you say the same thing about women called to a cloistered or a contemplative life?
Personally, there are so many profound layers and reasons for wearing a habit that I think one could write a book on it - and someone probably already has 🙂

The external witness was just one layer that I touched upon when I first posted.

I do believe that their very existence is a witness, even if they are not seen by others. In places where they have a strong religious community of contemplatives, this is still witnessing to those in the area that others chose to embark upon that life.

I think that knowing they wear the full habit, even if seeing it rarely, is a witness.

But wearing the habit I think also has strong implications on the life of the one wearing it and those around them in community.

I went to Catholic school and I loved wearing a uniform. Others did not, but I loved the freedom it gave me. My classmates felt the opposite about “freedom” but I really felt freer.

I was not a slave to fashion. I was not a slave to standing in front of my closet going “what should I wear now? Will I look good in it? Will it be cool? Will others like it?”

I was free because I knew everyday what I would wear. So I was free to move on to other things.

This is one freedom that I think nuns should have. They should be free to focus on God and not have to worry about going shopping for a new outfit or if what they wear is ok. It seems trivial, but a lot of energy can go into deciding what to wear.

The habit frees a person to use that energy elsewhere. You get up, get dressed, and that is it.

Well, sort of 😉

Another beauty of the habit is the attitude that a nun is asked to take when dressing. In some orders, as they dress they are asked to contemplate the spiritual life through the symbolism of their clothing. Each element has a symbol, such as the belt or cord, etc.

This symbolism and contemplation each day while dressing is gone when one wears secular clothing.

Also, the habit is a symbol of ones wedding gown. To wear it is to constantly be clothed in ones gown - and to have the opportunity to constantly be reminded that one is a bride of Christ.

This is also missing when one wears secular clothing.

I do not remember the apparition - I would have to look it up and I am not sure if I could find it 😦 But I understand you do not need to accept my statement without proof. Does anyone recall which apparition?

I was not trying to imply plain clothes sisters are ALL less religious. I get that that would be a compartimentalization of individuals, and that would not be fair. But in my personal experience, many do tend to be less authentically Catholic, which is what concerns me.

I was not trying to compare a plain clothed sister to a priest who promotes birth control. I understand that would not be right or fair. I was trying to see how far the suggestion of uncharitableness would go (a topic I really do not want to re-hash please 🙂

I was also not trying to say communities do not believe in the devil, but rather there are individuals within some communities that do not believe that. Sorry if it came accross otherwise. Maybe there are such communities where the entire community has gone schismatic in that respect, but I do not know of any I could mention. It is usually more individuals within communities.

I agree the spirit of the mission is essential, which is why I said in my first post no one needs a habit to be holy. I understand habited women can be very unholy too.

I just think that the habit is another beautiful symbol that can be used to help enhance and advance the spiritual life, and I think that we should use all the tools we have available to enhance and advance the spiritual life. Why throw a constructive “tool” away (if my use of the word does not cause any problems.)

If a religious community was founded to not wear a habit, then ok that is fine. I could be wrong though, but I believe many of those were founded in a time when they did not want the religious to experience persecution but be free to go out and help the community. But most were founded with the habit in mind.

You mentioned fashion - that we should not be concerned about how we look. But that is what happens I think when we throw away the habit. Then nuns/sisters start fussing with hair, shirts, shoes, skirts, etc.

Ultimately, one must go where they are called. I once questioned if God was calling me to an order that was semi-habited - as much as I disliked the thought I did consider it. (There is something about doing something half way that I cannot wrap myself around. I hope this is not seen as an insult or something to those who wear semi-habits. I am not meaning it that way at all so I hope that comment does not open another can of worms. Just a difference of opinion.)

While I do not want to rehash the topic, like I said before, I just want to add that I meant, and continue to mean, NO disrespect to women who do not wear habits. I stand behind my original position, and I am sorry if my position was interpreted as disrepectful, but I will not change it as I stand behind it. It is not my intention ANYWHERE to be disrespectful or hurtful to anyone. 🙂
 
I was not trying to imply plain clothes sisters are ALL less religious. I get that that would be a compartimentalization of individuals, and that would not be fair. But in my personal experience, many do tend to be less authentically Catholic, which is what concerns me.

I was also not trying to say communities do not believe in the devil, but rather there are individuals within some communities that do not believe that. Sorry if it came accross otherwise. Maybe there are such communities where the entire community has gone schismatic in that respect, but I do not know of any I could mention. It is usually more individuals within communities.

You mentioned fashion - that we should not be concerned about how we look. But that is what happens I think when we throw away the habit. Then nuns/sisters start fussing with hair, shirts, shoes, skirts, etc.
Well the sisters I know are free to concentrate on God–no matter what you are wearing, that is a freedom that we have. All communities God calls us to use different tools, and I would say dressing in plain but modest clothing like the ordinary people that you serve is also a “tool”.

It is pollycarp who actually brought up that the non-habited sisters look “frumpy” (meaning unfashionable), and said they should look attractive in stead. :confused: And of course–you have the opposite accusation, that they are actually over concerned with fashion. I find pollycarp to be more right on this one, though I think she’s wrong when she says that they should try to look more attractive instead. The sister at my parish always wore a plain blouse, skirt, sweater, black shoes. She has shorter hair with very little “fuss” about it, and of course no makeup, and only religious jewelry such as the cross or miraculous medal. Its plain and maybe “frumpy” but very practical for the work that she does, which is to help run our Church and provide for our local poor and hungry. I don’t think she is ever a “slave to fashion” and I think she is reminded of her calling instead by the work she does for us, instead of what she is wearing.

One thing I notice is that most communities of the “active” sisters tend to wear plainclothes more often–the clothes they wear reflect where they work and the people who they are working with…so for Mother Teresa its a sari, for a sister here its going to be more western dress, sisters from Africa wear more African-style dresses. For cloistered sisters who are more self-contained and withdrawn, they wear more habits. There may be some cloistered sisters who wear plainclothes, and some active sisters who wear habits, but overall that is the pattern I have noticed with the communities I’ve looked at. Not sure if it is just in my area or if it is true on a larger scale.

Why is your experience that “many tend to be less authentically Catholic”? How many habited sisters have you come to know, and how many plainclothes sisters? I believe that maybe there is a plainclothes sister out there who rejects the existence of the devil, but is it possible that because more active sisters are plainclothes, its easier to notice when they start to stray? When so many habited sisters are contemplative, you have no way of knowing if they reject or accept the existence of the devil. Or maybe its the active life itself which can make you more prone to straying, since you are out in secular society and are exposed to many of the same anti-Catholic ideas that have already taken over the vast majority of the laity (such as pro-birth control for one infamous example), and an habited active religious can stray as easily as a plainclothes active religious (though those who do stray are obviously a tiny minority and with God’s help can find the truth once more). All we can do is pray that the truth of the Church reaches the hearts of all of us–sisters, nuns, lay people, priests, brothers, etc, and help to instruct the ignorant wherever we can. :yup:

Hope you have a blessed Easter, and good luck with your own calling. 😃
 
Well the sisters I know are free to concentrate on God–no matter what you are wearing, that is a freedom that we have.
Hi again,

Regarding the sisters who do not wear habits, I did not mean to say they were obsessed with fashion. I understand that nuns try to dress simple and basic if they are not wearing a habit - it is not like I would expect to find them shopping for Gucci and primping like they were headed for the red carpet.

It is just that even when you dress simple, isn’t there still an element that is a little more concerned about how one looks then when one is covered? That is what I was trying to get at.

What I mean is this: I can sometimes dress really simply. My one friend has said she thinks I dress like a nun sometimes. But even when I dress very simple in a black skirt, a white top, black shoes, and pull back my hair, I still am aware of my appearance. I have to tuck my hair here and there, make sure my shoes are in line with the outfit, check myself in the mirror to make sure all is ok, etc. Not that I am saying any of this is a sin or something wrong in itself - but there is that element of still being in the world to it all.

Then I have to go shopping to find different skirts when some get old, find new tops, try things on, try to figure out if I like it or not, go to this store and that store, etc.

Sometimes I wish I could just cover my hair with a veil and wear a habit so that I would not have to worry about anything as little as possible. No concern over my hair, if I like the outfit I have on, etc. And never have to worry about going shopping for a new outfit because when my habit wears out, I just sew a new one 👍

To me, it just seems soooo much simpler. Yes, nuns who dress simply are much simpler than many of us, but I just think the habit makes it the MOST simple.

The thing about Mother Teresa though is that she made that sari her habit. She chose a simple fabric, and created a habit which she and everyone else wear. She continued to wear the same design the rest of her life.

Thats the difference - in her order, like most I think, they only have two habits. That is it. One to wear while they wash the other. My one friend, when she became cloistered, took one pair of shoes, some underwear, and a very minimal list of items.

A nun in street clothes, however simple she may be, probably has more than two outfits. Probably a little closet of clothes and shoes. To me, the nun with just two habits and one pair of shoes is living much more simply and poorer than the one with a tiny closet of street clothes and probably more than one pair of shoes (which also may cost more money to have than two habits probably, but I cannot say for sure on that. But I would think it would.)

I just personally like and appreciate that level of simplicity. To me, that is really and truly “leaving the world” while living in it so to speak, and I have such an admiration for it. To have a tiny closet of clothes, however simple, is still not making that dramatic leap of renuncisation towards the spirit of the world, in my mind.

I totally agree contemplative sisters can be schismatic. I do not doubt that.

It is just that you tend to find that it is the sisters without the habits that tend to generally be the ones who try to mix beliefs. If you just surf around their websites, some mix different faiths, introduce Yoga, give massages - and you tend to find that less with the fully habited sisters.

If you explore different communities, you may discover that amongst the fully-habited sisters, the Catholic doctrine is generally very observable and very clear through their use of the traditions and their thinking.

You know you are in a Catholic Church because they still have kneelers, statues, stained glass windows, etc. When you talk to them, you can question them on where they stand and you can see pretty quickly where they are at.

Once I went to a “cloistered” convent and met with the mother superior. Just in the church I started to feel skeptical - the cloister had been broken, and instead was open with no grille.

When she met me, in a very modified habit, she did not meet me in the traditional parlor but sat at a table in a room with me. She was very nice, but within 5 minutes I knew her thinking was very liberal as she started saying “all these things are not important. You do not need this or that or the other, what for?” And she started criticizing the Spanish for keeping the traditions, even when I told her that I had just come back from Spain and the convent I had visited was overflowing with vocations. Hers was vocation scarce.

Like I said before, I am sure there are many good sisters who wear regular clothing. It may be easier for them to “stray” though, because in their circles there are probably more sisters with doubtful thinking. For example, I know with my friends when I was in college, if I said something heretical they would have called me on it for sure and I saw them call others on things when they leaned too far one way or the other.

Probably when one is more surrounded by those who want to mix religions under the guise of “tolerance” one can stray easier, because there is no one to call them out when they start straying because no one wants to be seen as “intolerant.”

I am not sure if this is making sense on what I am trying to say, so let me know what you think 🙂
 
People died to wear their habits in the past when cultures persecuted them for it - DIED.

If the habit was so insignificant, why on earth would they die over it?
Umm, people died over their belief in Christ. Not over some garment.

I guess since this has spiralled into just about Religious, I can give an example.

My college is staffed by priest of the Basilian Fathers. Being a congregation founded by diocesan priests, they’ve never had any sort of habit. So among the 4 priests and 1 deacon (soon to be priest) we have, the clothes they wear vary quite a bit. From a young priest who wears regular street clothes and sandals (who has some of the best spiritual advice I’ve every heard), to one who wears a full suit and pointy shoes many days, to one who wears a tie because he’s a lecturer. Collars usually aren’t worn (besides the last few days, it being Easter and all). They rotate through who does daily Mass each day, and there’s been several times that I’ve noticed one of them wearing jeans under the vestments.

Nobody cares. They’re all very good priests and some of the best homilists I know. Judging people by what they’re wearing is, well, shallow. There’s no other way to put it.
 
If someone is going to ‘stray’, as you put it, a habit isn’t going to prevent it.

BTW, what is 'straying"? Reiki? Yoga? A labyrinth?

I think that nonhabited sisters usually are quite identifiable by their outfits. Plain clothes, (often ‘dowdy’), short hair, little or no makeup/jewelry, religious medal, crucifix. In line with the original intent of the foundresses, who not only did not prescribe habits, but wanted their sisters to dress like the poor they served. Some ‘sisters’ with the most identifiable habits–the Daughters of Charity with their huge (heavy, hot) cornettes, aren’t actually sisters at all, as they take vows (maybe actually promises) they have to renew each year.

Regarding the ‘closet’ , most habits were expensive to purchase and/or make, and, in view of the amount of time it required, very expensive to maintain. Many of the semi-contemplative sisters had lay sisters to maintain their habits. The separation of lay/choir was ended by Vat II. Most sisters with modified habits also have a choice depending on the weather and the function, so they, too will have a few different garments in their closets…!.

The habit issue has always been huge for the laity, rather than religious. For women religious much more than men. Often those who are the most vocal are lay-men, who never will be religious or have to wear a habit.

If you are looking at religious life and consider a habit important, by all means, look only at congregations that wear one. Your generalization regarding habits/vocations is oversimplified. Comparing vocations in Spain vs the US is not valid at all. There are actually only a very few habited communities in the US that are actively growing, lead (by far) by the Nashville and Ann Arbor Dominicans, orders that actively recruit, that teach(the most popular apostolate) with very attractive habits. The other most ‘popular’ habited communities are far behind. Even among habited communities, having 1-3 final professions/year is doing* very* well. Follow the websites.

The old congregations, now dwindling, were too large* by far,* unsustainably too large. They, too, are getting vocations (follow the websites) but not enough to sustain even their current numbers. They know this, have merged, moved to smaller quarters and the smaller ones are closing. But they will survive, without coifs, bandeaus and guimpes.
 
Some people simply will reject anything that they think is not “proper”. So, unfortunately, some very ignorant people are hostile to Nuns that do not wear habits.

I can understand why people prefer to see Nuns in identifying clothing. But to actually be hostile, that takes something more than simple ignorance. It takes malice, an unreasoning hatred, that is expressed against an unwitting target.

I think back to one of my wife’s old High School teachers. She was a Holy Cross Nun (the community that accepted my wife, before her spinal cord injury), and most of the Sisters had reverted back to their baptismal names.

But Sister Doleretta had chosen to keep her religious name. One day, when she was at our home for Sunday dinner, my wife asked her why.

She looked at both of us, smiled and said, “I know who I am, and I don’t have an identity crisis at all. God knows my baptismal name, and he knows why I chose to have this name when I professed. It was good enough for me then, and it is still good enough for me today. I simply do not understand this whole rush to get back you ‘real’ name. My 'real name” is Sister Doleretta"."
 
Some people simply will reject anything that they think is not “proper”. So, unfortunately, some very ignorant people are hostile to Nuns that do not wear habits.

I can understand why people prefer to see Nuns in identifying clothing. But to actually be hostile, that takes something more than simple ignorance. It takes malice, an unreasoning hatred, that is expressed against an unwitting target.
"
Are we going the name-calling route AGAIN??
 
Judging people by what they’re wearing is, well, shallow. There’s no other way to put it.
True, but I think you misunderstand what judging is.

To judge someone is to judge the state of their SOUL.

Judging is saying, for example: “sisters who do not wear a habit are bad human beings with corrupt souls.”

Judging is not saying, for example: “sisters who do not wear a habit may possible hold questionable beliefs.”

Only God can judge the human heart. Therefore, no one can make statements like the first because they are clearing trying to play the role of God and see the soul, which they cannot.

That is judging.

But to make a statement about externals is not necessarily judging. For example, it IS true that some sisters who do not wear a habit hold questionable beliefs. That is not a judgement, it is a fact. And the same can be said for some sisters who wear the full habit, some lay people , etc.

And yes, some people did die because they knew their government was telling them not to wear it or risk consequences, but they chose to wear it anyways and risk the consequences. It is not that the habit was their loyalty, of course Christ was probably first in their lives, but they had a choice and they chose to respond according the the response that would put them at greater risk
 
If someone is going to ‘stray’, as you put it, a habit isn’t going to prevent it.

BTW, what is 'straying"? Reiki? Yoga? A labyrinth?

.
I agree - a habit will not prevent it. That is why I have said several times that even fully habited nuns can hold heretical beliefs. No one is immune from falling into heresy - regardless of what they wear.

I used the term “stray” because the other poster had used it, and I was responding to the last post.

To “stray” would be to fall away from authentic Catholic teaching and no longer hold all the tenants of the faith that one is required to hold, and to begin to water down the faith with non-Catholic practices that compromise the continuing recognizability of the Catholic faith. I am sure there are better definitions, but that is mine in a nutshell 🙂
 
:confused: Faira why are you being so defensive? Old Medic wasn’t talking to you or even about you. He just said “some people are hostile”. Even if you are not hostile, some people are. :sad_yes: Sad, un-Catholic and ugly but true, as much as I wish it wasn’t. And yes, some people do judge those who don’t wear habits. Now as for your opinion…you say that non-habited sisters “tend to be the ones who try to mix beliefs”–do you have any evidence of this? Has there been an actual study, or is this only your own experiences? From my experience, I’ve never met a non-habited sister who mixes beliefs so much, they tend to be educators and therefore very strict when it comes to Catholicism. I’ve been going on a lot of websites too (as well as meeting many sisters throughout my life), and have yet to see any religious sisters promoting yoga for example. Most of it is just education, ministry, etc.

And saying “sisters who don’t wear a habit may possibly hold questionable beliefs”…ok yes, that is technically true. But it is also true of any other habited sister, lay person, etc. So why not just say “PEOPLE may possibly hold questionable beliefs”? I know you don’t mean it in a bad way, but when you specify “non-habited sister” like that especially in a thread about hostility toward non-habited sisters it does come across as very off. Like if you ask someone about hostility toward Catholic and they write a long post about how “Catholics may be anti-American”. They admit its true of some Protestants as well and is not true of all Catholics, so why bother specifying Catholic in the first place? 🤷 Again, I realize you don’t mean it in a bad way.

Anyway thanks so much to everyone for sharing their experiences with non-habited religious! Especially bigquests, that is pretty interesting, and I’m not surprised that the habits require a lot of upkeep especially if you only have a few. For me, I have had nothing but positive experiences from religious sisters and brothers. 👍
 
It is just that you tend to find that it is the sisters without the habits that tend to generally be the ones who try to mix beliefs. If you just surf around their websites, some mix different faiths, introduce Yoga, give massages - and you tend to find that less with the fully habited sisters.
I would agree with you on this point. The sisters that I have met that do not wear habits have with few exceptions been “non-Catholic” in their beliefs. Back in 2002 or 2003 I went to a conference and listen to a group of nuns from the St. Joseph, MO area (don’t remember the order) talk about how Peter really wasn’t the successor to Jesus, that God is a she and not a he (men did this a power grab), and the Gospels are really just rewritten Egyptian myths. I wasn’t a practicing Catholic at that time, but I was still totally shocked hearing this stuff come from nuns.

It could be that nuns without habits are just harder to spot, so the bad ones stick out that much more.
 
:confused: Faira why are you being so defensive? Old Medic wasn’t talking to you or even about you. He just said “some people are hostile”. Even if you are not hostile, some people are. :sad_yes: Sad, un-Catholic and ugly but true, as much as I wish it wasn’t. And yes, some people do judge those who don’t wear habits. Now as for your opinion…you say that non-habited sisters “tend to be the ones who try to mix beliefs”–do you have any evidence of this? Has there been an actual study, or is this only your own experiences? From my experience, I’ve never met a non-habited sister who mixes beliefs so much, they tend to be educators and therefore very strict when it comes to Catholicism. I’ve been going on a lot of websites too (as well as meeting many sisters throughout my life), and have yet to see any religious sisters promoting yoga for example. Most of it is just education, ministry, etc.

And saying “sisters who don’t wear a habit may possibly hold questionable beliefs”…ok yes, that is technically true. But it is also true of any other habited sister, lay person, etc. So why not just say “PEOPLE may possibly hold questionable beliefs”? I know you don’t mean it in a bad way, but when you specify “non-habited sister” like that especially in a thread about hostility toward non-habited sisters it does come across as very off. Like if you ask someone about hostility toward Catholic and they write a long post about how “Catholics may be anti-American”. They admit its true of some Protestants as well and is not true of all Catholics, so why bother specifying Catholic in the first place? 🤷 Again, I realize you don’t mean it in a bad way.

Anyway thanks so much to everyone for sharing their experiences with non-habited religious! Especially bigquests, that is pretty interesting, and I’m not surprised that the habits require a lot of upkeep especially if you only have a few. For me, I have had nothing but positive experiences from religious sisters and brothers. 👍
Thanks, Aizi.

I am showing my age. There is a big former sister literature out there, mainly from the 60’s on, some earlier, that describes the habits, and what went into their wearing and upkeep. Archaic rules limiting the number of baths and showers and how often you could change parts of the habit. One had a crinoline (do you know what that is?) that could be washed only* once a year.* Overworked sisters spending an entire day/week washing and ironing their habits and starching and *fluting *their headpieces. Some headdresses were downright dangerous–sisters who drove cars got into accidents, some with fatalities, until they got permission not to wear boxes around their faces! I strongly suspect that the awful headdress of the BVM’s contributed to their mortality (3 died) and possibly their students’ (97 died) during the terrible OL Angels fire in Chicago in the 1950s. Chronic headaches and rashes were very common. Many of the sisters who opted out of the habit are from this era.
After going to civvies, many, probably most, sisters don’t want to revert, tho’ I suspect that wearing an optional modified habit is becoming more common. But I suspect that the sisters have to maintain it themselves. No lay sisters around to do the fluting ;).
 
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