Is there salvation outside of the Church?

[jonnyws]

Hey all,

This Friday I’m giving a talk on the question ‘Is there salvation outside of the Church?’ I was wondering if anyone could recommend some literature for me to read up on (besides the catechism) the writings of Church Fathers and Saints would be preferable.

The point of the talk is to allow young Catholics (18-21 mostly) to discuss their point of views whilst ultimately being led to an understanding of the Church’s teaching on the issue. Any advice at all would be most welcome.

Thanks in advance,

Jonny

 

[SempirVeritas]

Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice.”*

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:

“With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.”[ii]

Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra:

“Since however there is for both regulars and seculars, for superiors and subjects, for exempt and non-exempt, one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…”[iii]

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:

“Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.”[iv]

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”[v]

Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:

“For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith.”[vi]

Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, “Iniunctum nobis,” Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…”[vii]

Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: “This faith of the Catholic Church, without which no one can be saved, and which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold…”[viii]

Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…”[ix]

I dont advocate the sedavecanti position at this stage in my life- nor am i really thinking about it, but mostholyfamilymonastery.com/the_catholic_church_salvation_faith_and_baptism.php has a good article on it.*

 

[Kook]

In addition to the quotes above, this thread is giving a good capsule of the subject:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=389616

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

Here’s a few more:

Pope Gregory XVI: “Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life… You know how zealously Our predecessors taught that article of faith which these dare to deny, namely the necessity of the Catholic faith and of unity for salvation… Omitting other appropriate passages which are almost numberless in the writings of the Fathers, We shall praise St. Gregory the Great who expressly testifies that THIS IS INDEED THE TEACHING OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. He says: ‘The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved.’ Official acts of the Church proclaim the same dogma. Thus, in the decree on faith which Innocent III published with the synod of Lateran IV, these things are written: ‘There is one universal Church of all the faithful outside of which no one is saved.’ Finally the same dogma is also expressly mentioned in the profession of faith proposed by the Apostolic See, not only that which all Latin churches use, but also that which… other Eastern Catholics use. We did not mention these selected testimonies because We thought you were ignorant of that article of faith and in need of Our instruction. Far be it from Us to have such an absurd and insulting suspicion about you. But We are so concerned about this serious and well known dogma, which has been attacked with such remarkable audacity, that We could not restrain Our pen from reinforcing this truth with many testimonies” (Summo Iugiter Studio, May 27, 1832).

Pope Gregory XVI: “With the admonition of the apostle that ‘there is one God, one faith, one baptism’ (Eph. 4:5) may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever. They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that ‘those who are not with Christ are against Him,’ (Lk. 11:23) and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore, ‘without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate’ [Athanasian Creed] (Mirari Vos (# 13), Aug. 15, 1832).

Saint Ambrose (died A.D. 397): “Where Peter is therefore, there is the Church. Where the Church is there is not death but life eternal. …Although many call themselves Christians, they usurp the name and do not have the reward.” (The Fathers of the Church)

Saint Jerome (died A.D. 420): “As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is, with the Chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the Church is built. …This is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails. …And as for heretics, I have never spared them; on the contrary, I have seen to it in every possible way that the Church’s enemies are also my enemies.” (Manual of Patrology and History of Theology)

Saint Augustine (died A.D. 430): “No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.” (Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesia plebem)

Saint Fulgentius (died A.D. 533): “Most firmly hold and never doubt that not only pagans, but also all Jews, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church, will go into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Enchiridion Patristicum)

St. Bede the Venerable (died A.D. 735): “Just as all within the ark were saved and all outside of it were carried away when the flood came, so when all who are pre-ordained to eternal life have entered the Church, the end of the world will come and all will perish who are found outside.” (Hexaemeron)

Saint Thomas Aquinas (died A.D. 1274): “There is no entering into salvation outside the Church, just as in the time of the deluge there was none outside the ark, which denotes the Church.” (Summa Theologiae)

Saint Peter Canisius (died A.D. 1597): “Outside of this communion - as outside of the ark of Noah - there is absolutely no salvation for mortals: not for Jews or pagans who never received the faith of the Church, nor for heretics who, having received it, corrupted it; neither for the excommunicated or those who for any other serious cause deserve to be put away and separated from the body of the Church like pernicious members…for the rule of Cyprian and Augustine is certain: he will not have God for his Father who would not have the Church for his mother.” (Catechismi Latini et Germanici)

Saint Robert Bellarmine (died A.D. 1621): “Outside the Church there is no salvation…therefore in the symbol [Apostles Creed] we join together the Church with the remission of sins: `I believe in the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins’…For this reason the Church is compared with the ark of Noah, because just as during the deluge, everyone perished who was not in the ark, so now those perish who are not in the Church.” (De Sacramento Baptismi)

continue

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

continuation

Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 - 604): “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.” (Moralia)

Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 - 1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423)

Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 - 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.’” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

“Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic Faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity … This is the Catholic Faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”
(Athanasian Creed; quoted and solemnly ratified ex cathedra by Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, session 8, November 22, 1439)

Pope Gregory XVI (AD 1831 – 1846) “Now We consider another abundant source of the evils with which the Church is afflicted at present: indifferentism. This perverse opinion is spread on all sides by the fraud of the wicked who claim that it is possible to obtain the eternal salvation of the soul by the profession of any kind of religion, as long as morality is maintained. Surely, in so clear a matter, you will drive this deadly error far from the people committed to your care”. (Mirari Vos).

Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 - 1846): “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)

Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 - 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)

Pope Leo XII: “It is impossible for the most true God, who is Truth itself, the best, the wisest Provider, and the Rewarder of good men, to approve all sects who profess false teachings which are often inconsistent with one another and contradictory, and to confer eternal rewards on their members … By divine faith we hold one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and … this is why we profess that there is no salvation outside the Church.” (Pope Leo XII, Ubi Primum, May 5, 1824; paragraph 14)

Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 - 1903): “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)

“He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God.” (Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae)

Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 - 1914): “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.” (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane)

Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 - 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 - 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. …Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)

Pope Pius XII (Humani Generis: “Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the Sources of Revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing. Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation.”

 

[baylee]

I’d like to add the following from ewtn (which falls in line with Vatican II teaching):

The doctrine that “Outside the Church there is no salvation” is one that is constantly misinterpreted by those who won’t submit to the Magisterium of the Church. Faith does not depend upon our ability to reason to the truth but on our humility before the Truth presented to us by those to whom Christ entrusted that task. This is why the First Vatican Council taught that it is the task of the Magisterium ALONE to determine and expound the meaning of the Tradition - including “outside the Church no salvation.”
Concerning this doctrine the Pope of Vatican I, Pius IX, spoke on two different occasions. In an allocution (address to an audience) on December 9th, 1854 he said:

We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge; we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord. And who would presume to mark out the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of peoples, countries, minds and the rest?
​

Again, in his encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore of 10 August, 1863 addressed to the Italian bishops, he said:

It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.
​

These statements are consistent with the understanding of the Church contained in the documents of Vatican II, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as well as explaining why the rigorist position of Fr. Feeney (that all must be actual members of the Catholic Church to be saved) has been condemned by the Magisterium. It is ironic that precisely those who know their obligation to remain united to the Magisterium, and thus on whom this doctrine is morally binding, keep themselves from union with the Roman See on this point.

 

[baylee]

Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice.”*

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:

“With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.”[ii]

Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra:

“Since however there is for both regulars and seculars, for superiors and subjects, for exempt and non-exempt, one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…”[iii]

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:

“Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.”[iv]

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”[v]

Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:

“For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith.”[vi]

Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, “Iniunctum nobis,” Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…”[vii]

Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: “This faith of the Catholic Church, without which no one can be saved, and which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold…”[viii]

Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…”[ix]

*I dont advocate the sedavecanti position at this stage in my life- nor am i really thinking about it, but http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/the_catholic_church_salvation_faith_and_baptism.php has a good article on it.

Then why advertise their point of view? They believe that Vatican II teaching goes against the teaching of the Church…but in my post above it is clear that Pope Pius IX held the same views as those in the current Catechism. So much for their “truth”.

 

[Roy5]

Gosh, reading all those pronouncements by Popes troubles me. I am a ‘big tent’ Protestant who favors ecumenism whereby Christians dwell in harmony and mutual respect - and work together toward shared goals. I somehow was under the impression that certainly since Vatican II the Catholic position of “no salvation outside the Church” had changed, been redefined, or whatever. I seem to recall that soon after Vatican II a Fr. Feeney in Boston continued to preach this “Catholic salvation only” and was silenced or something akin to that. Is my memory failing me? I have scads of Catholic friends in this area where people of Italian, Polish, French-Canadian, and Irish heritage are numerous and where Catholicism has traditionally been strong. In chatting about matters of faith with many of them over the years I remember only one or two who thought that there was no salvation outside the church.

 To begin with, I leave such matters up to God. But Jesus did speak of other sheep "not of this fold". One experience. I spent awhile with a Hindu family in India in 1994. They had an altar with their various gods pictured on it. and when I spoke of Jesus they wanted me to provide of picture of him to add to their 'avatars' - the word they used. Very open to other religious concepts. (I did not provide them with such a picture.)  Now, by the time I left I had concluded that if that family were not going to heaven, I should become nervous. I have never met a family that was kinder, more loving, more sharing, and with a deeper faith in God. I say God rather than gods because in our discussions it became obvious that they believed in one mysterious God (as we do), represented by a wide variety of cultural icons. Frankly, I was inclined to think that there is a similarity to their form of Hinduism and the traditional Catholic emphases on saints through which Catholics seek special favors and blessings. Now, they were an educated family and were quick to admit that many Hindus did worship the gods, but this was basically a popular but incorrect and illiterate misunderstanding of Hinduism. One interesting tidbit. The children of the family attended what they said was a Catholic School. When I went to visit it, it was sponsored by the Church of North India, a union of several Protestant denominations. I wish we showed as little concern for Catholic or Protestant as they did. When I attended the nearest Protestant church to their home (Methodist) on Sundays, they insisted on coming along and did their best to join in the hymns, prayers, etc. Maybe they have something to teach us? I was impressed.

  I don't pretend to know much about heaven (I don't think anyone does), but I'm sure that if it exists as we often conceive it, the place will be full of all varieties of Christians, plenty of Jews, and loads of Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and others. I certainly don't believe that we are saved by our church connection or by our theology but by the grace of God who will look graciously upon our simple faith in him and our feeble efforts to serve him by serving humankind.

  If Christ asked us to forgive not 7 times, but 70 times 7 times (infinitely?), certainly he will do as much when we appear before him on that judgment day (assuming that's the future scenario - I have no idea what the afterlife is like apart from believing in it - and without anxiety of any kind).

  God bless people of every creed, color and country. Why not work together to make religion a bridge instead of a barrier?  I am sure that would make Christ happy. He cartainly criticized those Jews who thought that they were the chosen people with the only true religion. He went out of his way to use a Samaritan as an example - and Samaritans had not only intermarried but also had a different religion and a city other than Jerusalem as their spiritual center.

 

[TobiMex]

What church are you talking about here? There is no salvation outside the church, which is the body of Christ, but of course there is salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church. Actually thats where salvation is preached, because noone ever will be saved by works, what is the RCC doctrine. And what does it help anybody to know what the popes said… Even though they call themselves “infallible” they are as human as everyone else. They lie and they are not perfect just as well all. The only salvation is in ACCEPTING JESUS AS SAVIOUR!!! No pope will save your life, no baptism, no eucharist, no ritual whatever… PRAISE THE LORD FOR HIS GRACE!

 

[Kook]

Gosh, reading all those pronouncements by Popes troubles me. I am a ‘big tent’ Protestant who favors ecumenism whereby Christians dwell in harmony and mutual respect - and work together toward shared goals.

What goals? And would they be more important than preaching the Truth for the salvation of souls?

I somehow was under the impression that certainly since Vatican II the Catholic position of “no salvation outside the Church” had changed, been redefined, or whatever.

Not so, though many would like to make such a claim.

I seem to recall that soon after Vatican II a Fr. Feeney in Boston continued to preach this “Catholic salvation only” and was silenced or something akin to that. Is my memory failing me?

Sort of. He was excommunicated for disobedience in not going to Rome to explain his denials of baptism by blood and baptism by desire. He was later reconciled to the Church.

I have scads of Catholic friends in this area where people of Italian, Polish, French-Canadian, and Irish heritage are numerous and where Catholicism has traditionally been strong. In chatting about matters of faith with many of them over the years I remember only one or two who thought that there was no salvation outside the church.

That is unfortunate.

To begin with, I leave such matters up to God. But Jesus did speak of other sheep “not of this fold”.

As do we, but sheep not of this fold cannot mean members not of His Body. Are there multiple Bodies of Christ? Multiple Brides of Christ?

One experience. I spent awhile with a Hindu family in India in 1994. They had an altar with their various gods pictured on it. and when I spoke of Jesus they wanted me to provide of picture of him to add to their ‘avatars’ - the word they used. Very open to other religious concepts. (I did not provide them with such a picture.) Now, by the time I left I had concluded that if that family were not going to heaven, I should become nervous.

One should never make such conclusions either.

I have never met a family that was kinder, more loving, more sharing, and with a deeper faith in God.

Being nice does not make for salvation. Your discussion of their “faith” does not sound like faith in the God of Christianity. To define faith as any religious belief at all empties this supernatural gift of its substance. When such a meaningless definition is used, all you can rely on is works, which don’t do much without faith. Hebrews makes it clear that without faith, it is impossible to please God.

  I don't pretend to know much about heaven (I don't think anyone does), but I'm sure that if it exists as we often conceive it, the place will be full of all varieties of Christians, plenty of Jews, and loads of Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and others. I certainly don't believe that we are saved by our church connection or by our theology but by the grace of God who will look graciously upon our simple faith in him and our feeble efforts to serve him by serving humankind.

The Church is the Mystical Body of Christ. This is clear from Ephesians and Colossians and Acts.

If Christ asked us to forgive not 7 times, but 70 times 7 times (infinitely?), certainly he will do as much when we appear before him on that judgment day (assuming that’s the future scenario - I have no idea what the afterlife is like apart from believing in it - and without anxiety of any kind).

Given this description, I must ask. Do you believe in hell?

God bless people of every creed, color and country.

Absolutely.

Why not work together to make religion a bridge instead of a barrier? I am sure that would make Christ happy.

Lying about Him would make Christ happy? You understand that this is what heresy is. Why would God be happy with people being misled about who He is?

He cartainly criticized those Jews who thought that they were the chosen people with the only true religion. He went out of his way to use a Samaritan as an example - and Samaritans had not only intermarried but also had a different religion and a city other than Jerusalem as their spiritual center.

So when He said that the Pharisees held the Seat of Moses and that people should listen to what they had to say, what did He mean?

To take it another way, when Paul warned about false teachers arising, why was he so concerned? Shouldn’t he have just told everyone to build bridges and worry about false teachings?

 

[Kook]

What church are you talking about here?

One would assume he means the True Church.

There is no salvation outside the church, which is the body of Christ, but of course there is salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church.

You assume the Catholic Church and the Mystical Body of Christ are not the same thing. You are wrong.

Actually thats where salvation is preached, because noone ever will be saved by works, what is the RCC doctrine.

This makes you either ignorant or a deceiver. My post above makes it clear that this is not Catholic teaching.

And what does it help anybody to know what the popes said… Even though they call themselves “infallible” they are as human as everyone else.

As was Peter, yet when he instructs you in 1 and 2 Peter, I’m sure you listen.

They lie and they are not perfect just as well all.

Do you think that a pope sinning is some sort of breaking news for Catholics?

The only salvation is in ACCEPTING JESUS AS SAVIOUR!!! No pope will save your life, no baptism, no eucharist, no ritual whatever… PRAISE THE LORD FOR HIS GRACE!

WooHoo!

 

[SemperFidelis]

It is ironic that precisely those who know their obligation to remain united to the Magisterium, and thus on whom this doctrine is morally binding, keep themselves from union with the Roman See on this point.

Actually there are groups in union with the Roman See who profess the “rigorist” interpretation and who have been allowed to. Here is one example:

saintbenedict.com/

 

[corsair]

Check out www.insidecatholic.com and the article by Mark Shea 10-24-09. Its pretty good.

 

[VerumAdInfernos]

Short answer to that would be,…no! xD. Sorry for the vague post, it just kind of happened, plus its late where I am.

 

[WarriorofJesus]

Hmmmmm tricky question. Ok, I’m not sure if I’m going to be wrong but I’ll just share my point of view of how I see it. I don’t mind if people correct me because to be honest, I only read your post and didn’t take the time to read the other posts people have written about.

To begin with, I am a young catholic but I will not reveal my age for various reasons. In my opinion, I do not think there is salvation outside of the church because the church was established by Jesus Christ himself for every single person in this planet. Every sacrament has an important role in our salvation. One example includes the Eucharist. Jesus says in the bible that he who eats his flesh and drinks his blood will not die and Jesus will stay connected with that person and maintain union with him. Secondly, we have the sacrament of confession which is a way to release ourselves from sin and be forgiven by God. That is one of the options you have to stay clean and remain pure. It’s kind of like taking a shower and getting rid of all the dirt (sins) you have by telling the priest the sins you have. Thirdly, we have the power of the Rosary within our church and it is an effective and powerful way of being spiritual and living your faith to the max. The Rosary has ‘special powers’ such as keeping yourself away from sin and having the whole catholic faith in just one Rosary if prayed with the misteries that go along with it. The Virgen Mary makes promises to all who pray it and grants special graces to those that devotionally pray it with passion throughout their whole life. In other words, the Rosary is a special way to be deeply spiritual and keep yourself connected with your catholic faith.

Other than that, Jesus Christ is the one who will give salvation. Have faith in Jesus and follow his fathers will. For all other churches were created by men and people aren’t exactly following Jesus’s original teachings but the teachings of the people who created their protestant churches. They miss out on some of the the puzzle pieces that are necessary in order to fully achieve salvation and gain direct entrance in heaven. I hope this helps and may God bless you.

 

[PhanxicoXavier]

The answer to this question is obvious - No. Read Cantate Domino, or any other writings of the Popes and councils.

Jesus Christ says that no-one goes to the Father but through Him – this eliminates all non-Christian religions on the earth. Christ further says that he who rejects the Apostles (the Church) rejects Him, and thereby rejects God – eliminating heretical and schismatic Protestants and Orthodox – thus, leaving on the Catholic Church as to sole ark of salvation.

 

[Qoheleth]

chnetwork.org/journals/nesschurch/ness_7.htm

I dont know how to do the actual link but type in this site its the best answer for this question and was written by Jimmy Atkin a Catholic apologist.

 

[Qoheleth]

lol guess i got the link in there after all hehe. Praise be to God!!!

 

[Roy5]

Yes, the Gospels do say that Jesus stated that no one cometh unto the Father but by me - if I’m quoting it (by heart) correctly.

So, what does that mean? One very likely interpretation - to me, at least - is that Christ as eternal judge/advocate decides who enters heaven. Now, since Christ is so merciful and says that even we should forgive one another infinitely (70 x 7 = 490 at least), surely he is going to forgive people of different faiths who never heard of Jesus, were raised in other traditions, were misled by other faiths, or whatever. 

 The thought that Christ would collectively send Buddhists or Muslims or Hindus or Jews or Protestants to hell because they got their theology wrong or didn't belong to the right church strikes me as totally out of line with the teachings of Christ. Frankly, I would never think of belonging to a religion that taught such savagery, such lack of understanding, such harsh punishment of people who are fine people, who even had faith in God, perhaps by a different name. Oh, by the way, few people seem to know that Christian Arabs call God Allah, simply the arabic word for God.

  The narrow view that says there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church seems to me to reflect the sort of arrogant (and evil) attitude represented by the Taliban or Al Qaeda. Agree with us or you will go to hell. That is as bad as agree with us or we're going to blow you up, maybe even worse, since eternity is involved. Absolute nonsense, completely contradictory to the spirit of my faith - and I hope yours.

  I was asked if I believe in hell. The Bible speaks of hell, and uses fire in connection with it. Imagery is widely used in the scriptures so I'm not sure about the fire part. I've already admitted that I don't pretend to know much about life eternal ("now we see through a glass darkly'), apart from believing in it, so I don't have a very good answer to the question. I walk by faith and not by knowledge, as the Bible suggests. That faith, in my instance, doesn't include a whole lot of precise theology. Dogmatic theology is at the root of so much of the world's problems, and has been throughout history. Believe like me, or I'll kill you. Believe like me, or you'll go to hell! No wonder a lot of people are turned off by religion.

  God bless people of every creed, color and country, and may religion become a bridge instead of a barrier.

 

[VerumAdInfernos]

Yes, the Gospels do say that Jesus stated that no one cometh unto the Father but by me - if I’m quoting it (by heart) correctly.

So, what does that mean? One very likely interpretation - to me, at least - is that Christ as eternal judge/advocate decides who enters heaven. Now, since Christ is so merciful and says that even we should forgive one another infinitely (70 x 7 = 490 at least), surely he is going to forgive people of different faiths who never heard of Jesus, were raised in other traditions, were misled by other faiths, or whatever. 

 The thought that Christ would collectively send Buddhists or Muslims or Hindus or Jews or Protestants to hell because they got their theology wrong or didn't belong to the right church strikes me as totally out of line with the teachings of Christ. Frankly, I would never think of belonging to a religion that taught such savagery, such lack of understanding, such harsh punishment of people who are fine people, who even had faith in God, perhaps by a different name. Oh, by the way, few people seem to know that Christian Arabs call God Allah, simply the arabic word for God.

  The narrow view that says there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church seems to me to reflect the sort of arrogant (and evil) attitude represented by the Taliban or Al Qaeda. Agree with us or you will go to hell. That is as bad as agree with us or we're going to blow you up, maybe even worse, since eternity is involved. Absolute nonsense, completely contradictory to the spirit of my faith - and I hope yours.

  I was asked if I believe in hell. The Bible speaks of hell, and uses fire in connection with it. Imagery is widely used in the scriptures so I'm not sure about the fire part. I've already admitted that I don't pretend to know much about life eternal ("now we see through a glass darkly'), apart from believing in it, so I don't have a very good answer to the question. I walk by faith and not by knowledge, as the Bible suggests. That faith, in my instance, doesn't include a whole lot of precise theology. Dogmatic theology is at the root of so much of the world's problems, and has been throughout history. Believe like me, or I'll kill you. Believe like me, or you'll go to hell! No wonder a lot of people are turned off by religion.

  God bless people of every creed, color and country, and may religion become a bridge instead of a barrier.

I do not mean to be confrontational, yet you are viewing this issue from a very juvenile perspective. I shall explain, you are Protestant so it is harder for you to understand when Catholics say there is no salvation outside of the Church. No one HAS said that those people will collectively burn in hell, when we say there is no salvation outside the Church, if someone knows of the true Church of Christs and rejects Christs teachings they are damned. All Christianity if it IS Christianity teaches this. And in today’s “Information Age”, the divide of who is not in the know is getting very small. There are other ways God may forgive even the hardest Heretic, but through penance. As Catholic Christians we believe that even if you are Hitler, or Stalin, or some other manner of harsh dictator or sinner you can still get to Heaven, but through penance. And sometimes that penance comes later rather than in our life, but when the truth is revealed before you, at whatever point in life or judgment God have mercy on the soul that turns away. Amen I say to you, sir, and God Bless.