Is there salvation outside of the Church?

[Claire_from_DE]

continuation

Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 - 604): “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.” (Moralia)

Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 - 1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423)

Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 - 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.’” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

“Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic Faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity … This is the Catholic Faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”
(Athanasian Creed; quoted and solemnly ratified ex cathedra by Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, session 8, November 22, 1439)

Pope Gregory XVI (AD 1831 – 1846) “Now We consider another abundant source of the evils with which the Church is afflicted at present: indifferentism. This perverse opinion is spread on all sides by the fraud of the wicked who claim that it is possible to obtain the eternal salvation of the soul by the profession of any kind of religion, as long as morality is maintained. Surely, in so clear a matter, you will drive this deadly error far from the people committed to your care”. (Mirari Vos).

Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 - 1846): “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)

Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 - 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)

Pope Leo XII: “It is impossible for the most true God, who is Truth itself, the best, the wisest Provider, and the Rewarder of good men, to approve all sects who profess false teachings which are often inconsistent with one another and contradictory, and to confer eternal rewards on their members … By divine faith we hold one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and … this is why we profess that there is no salvation outside the Church.” (Pope Leo XII, Ubi Primum, May 5, 1824; paragraph 14)

Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 - 1903): “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)

“He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God.” (Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae)

Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 - 1914): “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.” (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane)

Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 - 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 - 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. …Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)

Pope Pius XII (Humani Generis: “Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the Sources of Revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing. Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation.”

Since, in the quote I highlighted above, you only printed the part of it that seems to support your position and omitted the remainder of the quote which changes the meaning of it, how can I have confidence that you have not done the same in all the others? The rest of that quote shows that Pius IV was saying exactly what the Catechism of the Catholic Church states and which you apparently reject.

 

[VerumAdInfernos]

Since, in the quote I highlighted above, you only printed the part of it that seems to support your position and omitted the remainder of the quote which changes the meaning of it, how can I have confidence that you have not done the same in all the others? The rest of that quote shows that Pius IV was saying exactly what the Catechism of the Catholic Church states and which you apparently reject.

Claire would you mind posting the omitted part of the quote please? It would aid discussion over the interpretation I believe.

 

[TobiMex]

Friends, how could sacraments o rituals save anybody?
That cant be what you are believing, can it?

Do you really think eating a food “sactified” by the RCC could save you?
Do you really think baptism as a ritual will save you?
Do you really thin the virgin Mary has anything to do with salvation?
Do you really think praying the Rosary will change anything?
Do you really think any other ritual done by you will save you?

Come on, Jesus was speaking metaphorically of those things. He didnt say do step 1, 2 and 3 and then you are saved. The real salvation comes from your heart, and from your heart alone. Why should the LORD care about something we do in our flesh.

Remember: It is necessary for you to be born again and that is: Trust the Lord for your Salvation. Nothing done in the flesh can please him. Read the Gospel of John!

 

[TobiMex]

One more thing. The Ark of Salvation, how could that ever be a Church??? I would never say that anyone could be save by a church or by going to a church! Once again, those are things done in ones flesh, friends.

The Ark of Salvation has always, is and will always be the Lord Jesus Christ!!! From the beginning God has always saved people in his Holy Word because of their Faith and Trust in him. That is made so clearly in the letter to the Hebrews!

Dont loose yourselves believing that an institution could save you!!!

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

Since, in the quote I highlighted above, you only printed the part of it that seems to support your position and omitted the remainder of the quote which changes the meaning of it, how can I have confidence that you have not done the same in all the others? The rest of that quote shows that Pius IV was saying exactly what the Catechism of the Catholic Church states and which you apparently reject.

Well, when you read the rest of the quote you will see why I didn’t include the rest. In fact, when you examine the situation we find ourselves in today, you will understand clearly why the Pope said what he said. Before giving the quote let me briefly explain.

The dogma of the faith which all Catholics are bound to accept is that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. That is what we must affirm.

Can there be, what some might call, an “exception” to this dogma; that is to say, is it theoretically possible for one who is not a visible member of the Church to attain salvation? Yes, it is theoretically possible, especially for a child who is validly baptized by a non-Catholic. But the point of your question was not so much about a child under the age of reason, but about the “invincible ignorance” issue that we hear so much about today. Let me address that…

So much emphasis has been placed on this topic in our day that just about everyone who is not a member of the Catholic Church is said to be “invincibly ignorant”, and thus on the road to salvation. However, when you understand what “invincible ignorance” really is, an entirely different picture emerges.

St. Thomas: "Ignorance denotes privation of knowledge, i.e. lack of knowledge of those things that one has a natural aptitude to know. Some of these we are under an obligation to know, those, to wit, without the knowledge of which we are unable to accomplish a due act rightly. Wherefore all are bound in common to know the articles of faith, and the universal principles of right, and each individual is bound to know matters regarding his duty or state. Meanwhile there are other things which a man may have a natural aptitude to know, yet he is not bound to know them, such as the geometrical theorems, and contingent particulars, except in some individual case. Now it is evident that whoever neglects to have or do what he ought to have or do, commits a sin of omission. Wherefore through negligence, ignorance of what one is bound to know, is a sin; whereas it is not imputed as a sin to man, if he fails to know what he is unable to know. Consequently ignorance of such like things is called “invincible,” because it cannot be overcome by study. For this reason such like ignorance, not being voluntary, since it is not in our power to be rid of it, is not a sin: wherefore it is evident that no invincible ignorance is a sin. On the other hand, vincible ignorance is a sin, if it be about matters one is bound to know; but not, if it be about things one is not bound to know. (ST, IIa, 76, 2) …

"Affected ignorance does not excuse from guilt, but seems, rather, to aggravate it: for it shows that a man is so strongly attached to sin that he wishes to incur ignorance lest he avoid sinning. (ST, III, 47, 5) SUMMA THEOLOGICA

Here we see what invincible ignorance really is. It is ignorance** that cannot be overcome through study**. If the ignorance pertains to things we are bound to know, such as the dogmas of the faith; and if such ignorance can be overcome through study, the ignorance is not “invincible”, but rather vincible.

So, for example, a person living in a third world country who cannot read would probably fall into this category if the faith had never been explained to them; but what honest person would argue that a non-Catholic living in a developed country today - in the “information age” no less - cannot overcome their ignorance through study?

Yet, as a result of so much emphasis being placed on the possibility of salvation for one who is invincibly ignorant, combined with an incorrect understanding of what invincible ignorance is, many Catholics today (read, just about all of them) deny the dogma we are bound to believe.

Now, before giving the entire quote of the Pope, let’s consider one more thing. Consider the “explanation” that is usually given when one asks an “apologist” if there is salvation outside the Church. They will usually not even mention the dogma ( or if they do, it is very briefly and only in passing), before they launch into a litany of “exceptions”. In the end, the person is left with the impression that “outside the Church there is no salvation” is, to use the words of Pope Pius XII “a meaningless formula”.

continue…

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

continuation

In an earlier post in this thread, someone linked to an article posted at EWTN that discusses this topic. I didn’t read the link, but I am willing to bet that if you read it you will find that all emphasis is placed on the exception to the exclusion of the rule. I bet they focus all attention on the “invincible ignorance” argument without explaining what qualifies for invincible ignorance. Now to the quote from the Pope.

Pope Pius IX: "For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; [there’s the dogma we must affirm] but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion,** if this ignorance is invincible**, will not be held guilty of this in the eyes of God. Now, in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things? For in truth, when released from these corporeal chains “we shall see God as He is”, we shall understand perfectly by how close and beautiful a bond divine mercy and justice are united; but, as long as we are on earth, weighed down by this mortal mass which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is “one God, one faith, one baptism” (Eph. 4.5); it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry".

Notice how he ends that. He says it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry on this point. And experience has shown why he said that: for the past 40 years all emphasis has been placed on the “exception”, which has resulted in most Catholics now denying the dogma.

Something else needs to be pointed out about the quote. The Pope does not say the invincibly ignorant will be saved; all he says is that they will not be held guilty for what they were invincibly ignorant of; namely, the Catholic faith. But it does not follow that they will be saved. Not being guilty of one sin does not absolve from all others; nor is ignorance a substitute for the Catholic faith “without which it is impossible to please God”.

In fact, St.Thomas, quoting St. Augustine, says that invincible ignorance is a punishment for some other sin the person has committed.

St. Thomas: “There are many things which a man is obliged to do, but which he cannot do without the help of divine grace: as, for instance, to love God and his neighbor, and to believe the articles of faith; but he can do all this with the help of grace; and 'to whomsoever God gives His grace He gives it out of Divine Mercy: and to whomsoever He does not give it, He refuses it out of divine justice, in punishment of sin committed, or at least in punishment of original sin,” as St. Augustine says. (Lib. de correptione et gratia, c. 5 et 6; Sum. 22. q. ii art. v.) **“And the ignorance of these things of salvation, the knowledge of which men did not care to have, is, without doubt, a sin for them; but for those who were not able to acquire such knowledge, the want of it is a punishment for their sins”, says St. Augustine; hence both are justly condemned, and neither the one nor the other has a just excuse for being lost." **(Epist. ad Sixtum, Edit. Maur. 194, cap. vi., n. 27.)

So, according to both St. Augustine and St. Thomas, not only the vincibly ignorance, but even the invincibly ignorance will be damned. The one for failing to learn what he should have learned, and the other for some other sin he committed.

Is it theoretically possible for a person who is invincibly ignorant of the faith to be saved? Although it is has never been defined de fide, we are allowed to hold to this opinion. Is it wrong to deny a dogma that has been defined; namely, outside the Church there is no salvation", based on the possibility that a man who is invincibly ignorant can attain salvation? Without any doubt that would be wrong.

Therefore, to answer your question: The reason I did not quote the rest of what Pius IX said is because it in our day there has been an over-emphasis on the issue of invincible ignorance (which most don’t misunderstand) thereby resulting in many (most) Catholics denying a dogma that they are bound to accept.

 

[PhanxicoXavier]

Friends, how could sacraments o rituals save anybody?
That cant be what you are believing, can it?

Do you really think eating a food “sactified” by the RCC could save you?
Do you really think baptism as a ritual will save you?
Do you really thin the virgin Mary has anything to do with salvation?
Do you really think praying the Rosary will change anything?
Do you really think any other ritual done by you will save you?

Come on, Jesus was speaking metaphorically of those things. He didnt say do step 1, 2 and 3 and then you are saved. The real salvation comes from your heart, and from your heart alone. Why should the LORD care about something we do in our flesh.

Remember: It is necessary for you to be born again and that is: Trust the Lord for your Salvation. Nothing done in the flesh can please him. Read the Gospel of John!

Both Faith and good works are necessary for salvation. A true Faith that is (the Catholic Faith), not a false Protestant faith.

There is absolutely no salvation outside the Catholic Church – anyone who says otherwise does not understand Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

 

[baylee]

continuation

In an earlier post in this thread, someone linked to an article posted at EWTN that discusses this topic. I didn’t read the link, but I am willing to bet that if you read it you will find that all emphasis is placed on the exception to the exclusion of the rule. I bet they focus all attention on the “invincible ignorance” argument without explaining what qualifies for invincible ignorance. Now to the quote from the Pope.

Pope Pius IX: "For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; [there’s the dogma we must affirm] but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion,** if this ignorance is invincible**, will not be held guilty of this in the eyes of God. Now, in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things? For in truth, when released from these corporeal chains “we shall see God as He is”, we shall understand perfectly by how close and beautiful a bond divine mercy and justice are united; but, as long as we are on earth, weighed down by this mortal mass which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is “one God, one faith, one baptism” (Eph. 4.5); it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry".

Notice how he ends that. He says it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry on this point. And experience has shown why he said that: for the past 40 years all emphasis has been placed on the “exception”, which has resulted in most Catholics now denying the dogma.

Something else needs to be pointed out about the quote. The Pope does not say the invincibly ignorant will be saved; all he says is that they will not be held guilty for what they were invincibly ignorant of; namely, the Catholic faith. But it does not follow that they will be saved. Not being guilty of one sin does not absolve from all others; nor is ignorance a substitute for the Catholic faith “without which it is impossible to please God”.

In fact, St.Thomas, quoting St. Augustine, says that invincible ignorance is a punishment for some other sin the person has committed.
St. Thomas: “There are many things which a man is obliged to do, but which he cannot do without the help of divine grace: as, for instance, to love God and his neighbor, and to believe the articles of faith; but he can do all this with the help of grace; and 'to whomsoever God gives His grace He gives it out of Divine Mercy: and to whomsoever He does not give it, He refuses it out of divine justice, in punishment of sin committed, or at least in punishment of original sin,” as St. Augustine says. (Lib. de correptione et gratia, c. 5 et 6; Sum. 22. q. ii art. v.) "And the ignorance of these things of salvation, the knowledge of which men did not care to have, is, without doubt, a sin for them; but for those who were not able to acquire such knowledge, the want of it is a punishment for their sins", says St. Augustine; hence both are justly condemned, and neither the one nor the other has a just excuse for being lost." (Epist. ad Sixtum, Edit. Maur. 194, cap. vi., n. 27.)
So, according to both St. Augustine and St. Thomas, not only the vincibly ignorance, but even the invincibly ignorance will be damned. The one for failing to learn what he should have learned, and the other for some other sin he committed.

Is it theoretically possible for a person who is invincibly ignorant of the faith to be saved? Although it is has never been defined de fide, we are allowed to hold to this opinion. Is it wrong to deny a dogma that has been defined; namely, outside the Church there is no salvation", based on the possibility that a man who is invincibly ignorant can attain salvation? Without any doubt that would be wrong.

Therefore, to answer your question: The reason I did not quote the rest of what Pius IX said is because it in our day there has been an over-emphasis on the issue of invincible ignorance (which most don’t misunderstand) thereby resulting in many (most) Catholics denying a dogma that they are bound to accept.

I included the full quote in my post, but to respond to your explanation regarding invincible ignorance…I’m actually fine with your explanation and its consequences. I think what annoys me is when people go on and on about how Vatican II changed the teachings of the church…when, in fact, it states (almost word for word) what this Pope stated.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

Friends, how could sacraments o rituals save anybody?
No, rituals don’t save. But God’s grace which is poured out on us when we receive the sacraments in faith does save.

Do you really think eating a food “sanctified” by the RCC could save you?
After Jesus ‘sanctified’ the bread at the last supper by saying ‘this is my body’, he told the apostles to ‘do this’. Previously he had told them they would have to eat his body and drink his blood to have life in them. They continued to do what Jesus said and they told people that this was really the body and blood of Jesus. So, since Jesus said it and the apostles taught it, I believe it. Don’t you believe you are saved by the blood of Christ??

Do you really think baptism as a ritual will save you?
We are born again of water and the Spirit, we become children of God and heirs of heaven. He is the vine, we are the branches. His life flows in us and if we abide in him we are saved.

Do you really thin the virgin Mary has anything to do with salvation?
Uh, YEAH… She agreed to become the mother of the savior. The Holy Spirit overshadowed her. Jesus was born of her and raised by her. He did his first miracle at her request. She was with him as he died on the cross. She was with the apostles when the Holy Spirit came on them at Pentecost. She was his first and greatest disciple. In heaven she prays for us.
Do you really think the virgin Mary has nothing to do with salvation?

Do you really think praying the Rosary will change anything?
Yes, as I pray the rosary and meditate on the incidents in Jesus’ life and death, it changes ME. And ‘the prayer of a righteous man avails much’. When we pray the rosary we pray for others and we ask Mary to pray for us.

Do you really think any other ritual done by you will save you?
Do you really think your prayers will save you? Of course not! It is God’s grace that saves us. God’s grace can come to you when you pray; God’s grace can come to us when we take part in the sacraments of the church. And it is grace that impels you to pray in the first place. And it is God’s grace that brings us to the sacraments in faith.

Come on, Jesus was speaking metaphorically of those things.
I disagree with you, the apostles would disagree with you, and so does the Church that Jesus built on the cornerstone of himself with the living stones of the apostles.

He didnt say do step 1, 2 and 3 and then you are saved. The real salvation comes from your heart, and from your heart alone.
Salvation comes from our God.

Why should the LORD care about something we do in our flesh.
Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not commit adultery. Baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Do good to those who hate you. When I was naked you clothed me. Love one another as I have loved you. Hmm… it would appear that the LORD cares as much about what we do as about what we believe.

Remember: It is necessary for you to be born again and that is: Trust the Lord for your Salvation.
We are told to be born of water and the Spirit (baptism) AND to trust in the Lord for he is good, AND to follow him and abide in him.

Nothing done in the flesh can please him.
‘In the flesh’ doesn’t mean ‘with our bodies’; our bodies take part in serving and worshiping God. Actions that are motivated by the Holy Spirit do please him.

Read the Gospel of John!
And Matthew, Mark, and Luke!

That cant be what you are believing, can it?
See the above

 

[Filioque]

Come on, Jesus was speaking metaphorically of those things. He didnt say do step 1, 2 and 3 and then you are saved. The real salvation comes from your heart, and from your heart alone. Why should the LORD care about something we do in our flesh.

Remember: It is necessary for you to be born again and that is: Trust the Lord for your Salvation. Nothing done in the flesh can please him. Read the Gospel of John!

Taking the Protestant position for one moment, one becomes not only freed from the responsibility to take the entire Bible in context, but to reject what they want. Based on your what you have written, this standard line of being saved by Accepting Jesus into your heart, negates Jesus. The Catholic Church says we submit ourselves to Jesus, and that Jesus works His grace on us through submitting to the Sacraments that He gave us. These Sacraments are not empty rituals but means of grace who’s effecacy depend on Jesus Himself supplying the graces to us.

Protestantism however robs Jesus of His work, on the Cross, and through the Sacraments by which He works and puts it all on me and my decision. For if all I need for salvation is my action of accepting Jesus, then it is me that determines by my work or action at one moment my salvation, and not my submitting to what Jesus told me I have to do throughout the Gospel.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

My take on this thread:
God, who is just, will determine who is invincibly ignorant, not Aquinas or Augustine. All who are saved will be saved in some way through Jesus Christ and his church. If we know that the Catholic church is the church founded by Jesus we must enter and remain in it. Simply being a Catholic does not mean we are assured of going to heaven. Those of us who are Catholic are obliged to encourage others to come into the church. IMHO, those of you who are convinced that virtually nobody outside the Catholic church will go to heaven are even more seriously obligated, by Christian charity, to spread the faith. It should be a matter of great sorrow for us to consider that many may not enjoy eternal life with God.

QUESTIONS:

As Catholics, do we believe that God wills all men to be saved?

Do we believe that God gives all men sufficient grace to be saved?

 

[Kook]

Yes, the Gospels do say that Jesus stated that no one cometh unto the Father but by me - if I’m quoting it (by heart) correctly.

So, what does that mean? One very likely interpretation - to me, at least - is that Christ as eternal judge/advocate decides who enters heaven. Now, since Christ is so merciful and says that even we should forgive one another infinitely (70 x 7 = 490 at least), surely he is going to forgive people of different faiths who never heard of Jesus, were raised in other traditions, were misled by other faiths, or whatever. 

 The thought that Christ would collectively send Buddhists or Muslims or Hindus or Jews or Protestants to hell because they got their theology wrong or didn't belong to the right church strikes me as totally out of line with the teachings of Christ. Frankly, I would never think of belonging to a religion that taught such savagery, such lack of understanding, such harsh punishment of people who are fine people, who even had faith in God, perhaps by a different name. Oh, by the way, few people seem to know that Christian Arabs call God Allah, simply the arabic word for God.

  The narrow view that says there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church seems to me to reflect the sort of arrogant (and evil) attitude represented by the Taliban or Al Qaeda. Agree with us or you will go to hell. That is as bad as agree with us or we're going to blow you up, maybe even worse, since eternity is involved. Absolute nonsense, completely contradictory to the spirit of my faith - and I hope yours.

  I was asked if I believe in hell. The Bible speaks of hell, and uses fire in connection with it. Imagery is widely used in the scriptures so I'm not sure about the fire part. I've already admitted that I don't pretend to know much about life eternal ("now we see through a glass darkly'), apart from believing in it, so I don't have a very good answer to the question. I walk by faith and not by knowledge, as the Bible suggests. That faith, in my instance, doesn't include a whole lot of precise theology. Dogmatic theology is at the root of so much of the world's problems, and has been throughout history. Believe like me, or I'll kill you. Believe like me, or you'll go to hell! No wonder a lot of people are turned off by religion.

  God bless people of every creed, color and country, and may religion become a bridge instead of a barrier.

From Hebrews, we know that it is impossible to please God without faith.

From St. Paul, we know that there is but one Lord, ONE FAITH, and one baptism.

How does your belief above not make this one faith superfluous?

How does this same belief not result in a works-based salvation?

 

[TobiMex]

Friends,

even though you dont really get the ideas I want to transmit here, I am happy that there is discussion. I do hope that you will believe one day in a Jesus-based salvation and not in your RCC based salvation. RCC does not equal the body of Christ! That is as sure as the AMEN in church as we say in Germany.

When we read scripture and scripture alone WITHOUT tradition (that has been and is the mistake of the pharisees etc.), we must see that there is but one way to God, that is Jesus Christ as the Gospel states it plenty of times - that is so that everybody understand. Understand too and read from in the Gospel, that the apostle Peter was apostle to the Jews and apostle Paul apostle to the gentiles. The first church was apart from that not the one in Rome either, read scripture please and do not believe anything I say.

The apostle Paul states also various times that we should not rely on stories and tradition, but on the true Gospel which we can read in Gods Word.

See also that the purgatory, the wrongest idea taken out from I have no idea where, not from the Word of God, makes everybody have the easy life he or she wants. We do not need to act according to the Salvation that is in Jesus Christ by faith.

After all if you always say that the only salvation is in the Roman Catholic Church, why does the pope kiss the Muslim “holy” book, that teaches a different Gospel than the Christian one. Does he believe that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is but one Gospel of various? Why does he do those kind of things and should the Catholic Church not start teaching the Gospel of exclusion and take a clear position on other faiths???

I am for real here, if you preach that the RCC is the only way for Salvation you are excluding all the other faiths. Jesus on the other hand does not exclude anybody when he says: “I am the way, the truth and the life, noone comes to the father than by me.”

If you interpret the Word of God wrong thinking that everyone that got baptised as a child, not knowing what was even being done to him, than you are nothing less than really wrong. I am sorry, but I will never understand this contradictions in all your belief and I will never see how can you believe human works to make you be saved. Read what the popes say, they contradict each other all the way long.

Thats why Christians should trust on nothing else but the Word of God only (without Apocryphs), because they were put there after the Concile of Trient in around 1545. Biblical christians do NOT believe in purgatory because it is simply not necessary when Christ cleansed you by taking upon himself your sins. It is so wrong, but of course it is convenient due to the fact that everybody who has been baptised and eats the eucharist will go to heaven in any case.

Keep on discussing and believe GODS WORD and NOT your traditions, popes, priests, writings and so on.

 

[baylee]

Friends,

even though you dont really get the ideas I want to transmit here, I am happy that there is discussion. I do hope that you will believe one day in a Jesus-based salvation and not in your RCC based salvation. RCC does not equal the body of Christ! That is as sure as the AMEN in church as we say in Germany.

When we read scripture and scripture alone WITHOUT tradition (that has been and is the mistake of the pharisees etc.), we must see that there is but one way to God, that is Jesus Christ as the Gospel states it plenty of times - that is so that everybody understand. Understand too and read from in the Gospel, that the apostle Peter was apostle to the Jews and apostle Paul apostle to the gentiles. The first church was apart from that not the one in Rome either, read scripture please and do not believe anything I say.

The apostle Paul states also various times that we should not rely on stories and tradition, but on the true Gospel which we can read in Gods Word.

See also that the purgatory, the wrongest idea taken out from I have no idea where, not from the Word of God, makes everybody have the easy life he or she wants. We do not need to act according to the Salvation that is in Jesus Christ by faith.

After all if you always say that the only salvation is in the Roman Catholic Church, why does the pope kiss the Muslim “holy” book, that teaches a different Gospel than the Christian one. Does he believe that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is but one Gospel of various? Why does he do those kind of things and should the Catholic Church not start teaching the Gospel of exclusion and take a clear position on other faiths???

I am for real here, if you preach that the RCC is the only way for Salvation you are excluding all the other faiths. Jesus on the other hand does not exclude anybody when he says: “I am the way, the truth and the life, noone comes to the father than by me.”

If you interpret the Word of God wrong thinking that everyone that got baptised as a child, not knowing what was even being done to him, than you are nothing less than really wrong. I am sorry, but I will never understand this contradictions in all your belief and I will never see how can you believe human works to make you be saved. Read what the popes say, they contradict each other all the way long.

Thats why Christians should trust on nothing else but the Word of God only (without Apocryphs), because they were put there after the Concile of Trient in around 1545. Biblical christians do NOT believe in purgatory because it is simply not necessary when Christ cleansed you by taking upon himself your sins. It is so wrong, but of course it is convenient due to the fact that everybody who has been baptised and eats the eucharist will go to heaven in any case.

Keep on discussing and believe GODS WORD and NOT your traditions, popes, priests, writings and so on.

Who do you think determined which books belonged in the New Testament? And you do realize that the full canon was not available to the average Christian at the beginning of Church history?

 

[ron77nyc]

The answer to this question is obvious - No. Read Cantate Domino, or any other writings of the Popes and councils.

Jesus Christ says that no-one goes to the Father but through Him – this eliminates all non-Christian religions on the earth. Christ further says that he who rejects the Apostles (the Church) rejects Him, and thereby rejects God – eliminating heretical and schismatic Protestants and Orthodox – thus, leaving on the Catholic Church as to sole ark of salvation.

The traditional teaching of salvation is the Feenyite position. Popes Eugene and Boniface were Feenyites. The Church does not hold that position any longer so someone has to come up with and explanation but no one can. The Church first taught salvation for non-Catholics then in the middle ages taught only Catholics were saved and today it’s back to the original position. How do you do this and still maintain papal infallibility?

 

[distracted]

Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice.”*

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:

“With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.”[ii]

Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra:

“Since however there is for both regulars and seculars, for superiors and subjects, for exempt and non-exempt, one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…”[iii]

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:

“Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.”[iv]

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”[v]

Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:

“For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith.”[vi]

Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, “Iniunctum nobis,” Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…”[vii]

Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: “This faith of the Catholic Church, without which no one can be saved, and which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold…”[viii]

Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…”[ix]

I dont advocate the sedavecanti position at this stage in my life- nor am i really thinking about it, but mostholyfamilymonastery.com/the_catholic_church_salvation_faith_and_baptism.php* has a good article on it.

it should be added to this that protestants ARE part of the Church if onlly imperfectly… and incompletely… insofar as they adhere to the same principles the Church teaches…

they are our separated brethren but brethren just the same… even so we should try always to convert them…

 

[distracted]

  I . I certainly don't believe that we are saved by our church connection or by our theology but by the grace of God who will look graciously upon our simple faith in him and our feeble efforts to serve him by serving humankind.

  .

i once believed the same thing. then i became catechized in my long-neglected Catholic faith… and prayed some rosaries… (very powerful!!)…

Jesus Christ himself said that ther are “few who find the narrow way to eternal life”… that many will attempt to enter Heaven but will not “be strong enough”. The saints tell us the same thing and visions of Mary … .ditto.

the reason is that most people are living for this world and not really focused on God and ***his law ***much… and those who know of his law think they can violate it over and over & still get to Heavne… (OSAS) People lie to themselves all the time and the bible says that no liar will inherit the kingdom… (Rev)

most people just don’t want to do the hard work of living right… and it is hard work… doing things according to God’s laws when we just want to do our own thing… we are always
avoiding suffering when we HAVE to suffer in order to be diferent… to be holy. The Word says that without holiness we cannot please god

…

 

[distracted]

The traditional teaching of salvation is the Feenyite position. Popes Eugene and Boniface were Feenyites. The Church does not hold that position any longer so someone has to come up with and explanation but no one can. The Church first taught salvation for non-Catholics then in the middle ages taught only Catholics were saved and today it’s back to the original position. How do you do this and still maintain papal infallibility?

this is NOT true!!

the Church did not CHANGE but expounded upon its position…

it is still true that there is no salvation outside the Church… but Protestants are not considered to be outside the Church entirely…

it is still true however, that if a protestant KNOWS that the RCC is the true Church and does not convert, he is jeopardizing his salvation because he is putting something over his love of Christ…(idolatry, which is the definition of all sin).

If you know the RCC is the Church Christ established (and it is)… and you don’t join, you are rejecting Christ and tht is the unforgivable sin… (rejecting total forgivness and purgation)

 

[Kook]

There is much inaccuracy in Tobi’s post, so I’ll just hit some high points:

When we read scripture and scripture alone WITHOUT tradition (that has been and is the mistake of the pharisees etc.), . . .

The apostle Paul states also various times that we should not rely on stories and tradition, but on the true Gospel which we can read in Gods Word.

Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.

Weird how, according to Paul, we’re supposed to be holding to these traditions, yet according to Tobi, we aren’t. Weird.

I am for real here, if you preach that the RCC is the only way for Salvation you are excluding all the other faiths. Jesus on the other hand does not exclude anybody when he says: “I am the way, the truth and the life, noone comes to the father than by me.”

Of course. There is only one faith. All others are necessarily excluded. Therefore, Jesus excludes many, specifically those who are not a part of His Mystical Body.

If you interpret the Word of God wrong thinking that everyone that got baptised as a child, not knowing what was even being done to him, than you are nothing less than really wrong.

Sorry, we are prohibited from proclaiming personal interpretations of Scripture as authoritative. See 1 Peter 1:20.

I am sorry, but I will never understand this contradictions in all your belief and I will never see how can you believe human works to make you be saved.

Let’s ignore the fact that you are misstating Catholic beliefs here. This sounds very exclusivist of you. Why are you allowed this attitude while Catholics are not? Your comments come off as very hypocritical.

Read what the popes say, they contradict each other all the way long.

Evidence? Proof? Do you believe in providing such things to support your assertions?

Thats why Christians should trust on nothing else but the Word of God only (without Apocryphs), because they were put there after the Concile of Trient in around 1545.

This is demonstrably false. Check the Decree of Damasus from back in 382.

 

[ron77nyc]

this is NOT true!!

the Church did not CHANGE but expounded upon its position…

They had the truth in the beginning of the Church. They got away from it in the middle ages and now they are back to it. That’s not expounding. That’s error.

jimmyakin.org/2004/06/two_instances_o.html
Consequently, the verb “define” has come to be used as a trigger word for infallible papal statements. If you see a pope say “we define” or “I define,” it is a signal that he is making a definition and thus exercising the Church’s gift of infallibility. (This is not the only way in which he can do this, but it is the standard way.)

This one has the verb define.

We declare, say , define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. Pope Boniface VIII, (Unam Sanctam, 1302).

This was an infallible statement excluding ALL who were not in the Catholic Church.