Is there salvation outside of the Church?

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“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.”

Good verse, but not good at all to support the RCC point of view. Paul does not say here that you should keep the heretic traditions of the Roman Catholic Church, but the TRADITION OF THE APOSLES, which is actually what is written down in the epistles, which is the Gospel, the Good News, Salvation in Christ through his blood.

The RCC is just doing the same than jewish pharisees by exalting their traditions more than Scripture.

And if there is the one faith. Why does the pope kiss the “holy” book of the muslims???

And why am I a hypocrit saying that good works dont save, the only work that has been done by God which is the Death of Jesus on the Cross will save me. God forbid that I would ever believe in my own power to save me or the power of a church to save me. Evangelics do not preach that, because it is just wrong. The pope making himself God by saying his is infallible is a huge sin, but he will have to stand before God, telling him that, so that will be a bad day for him. Better dont trust in yourselves as good, noone is good just God alone, to quote the words of the Lord and Saviour.
 
ron77nyc said:
They had the truth in the beginning of the Church. They got away from it in the middle ages and now they are back to it. That’s not expounding. That’s error.
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if you think the Catholic Church is in error why do you call yourself Catholic. I woiuldn’t belong to a Church taht i thought taught error… or did you think that sying you are Ctholic would gain you points here @ CAF?? just wondering…
 
ron77nyc said:
They had the truth in the beginning of the Church. They got away from it in the middle ages and now they are back to it. That’s not expounding. That’s error.

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the Church cannot error. God would not allow the Church to lead people astray… to Hell. i don’t believe that --i KNOW it…

the very real Presence of Christ is in the Catholic Church… That by itself proves that the Church will never go astray. Jesus would not entrust Himself to a church that could error… although he does entrust Himself (the Hosts) to human ineptitude … in so being in his Church…

The Church has never officially taught anything that was wrong… concerning faith/morals.

it doesn’t make sense that you would disagree w/ tht & still call yourslef catholic.V
 
Claire_from_DE said:
** those of you who are convinced that virtually nobody outside the Catholic church will go to heaven are even more seriously obligated, by Christian charity, to spread the faith. It should be a matter of great sorrow for us to consider that many may not enjoy eternal life with God.**

?
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TobiMex said:
What church are you talking about here? There is no salvation outside the church, which is the body of Christ, but of course there is salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church. Actually thats where salvation is preached, because noone ever will be saved by works, what is the RCC doctrine. And what does it help anybody to know what the popes said… Even though they call themselves “infallible” they are as human as everyone else. They lie and they are not perfect just as well all. The only salvation is in ACCEPTING JESUS AS SAVIOUR!!! No pope will save your life, no baptism, no eucharist, no ritual whatever… PRAISE THE LORD FOR HIS GRACE!
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how ironic…

we are supposed to believe YOU???

aren’t you as fallible as anyone else??

yet popes live(d) in the very Presence of Jesus Christ…

I will believe them…
 
Roy5 said:
Yes, the Gospels do say that Jesus stated that no one cometh unto the Father but by me - if I’m quoting it (by heart) correctly.
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So, what does that mean? One very likely interpretation - to me, at least - is that Christ as eternal judge/advocate decides who enters heaven. Now, since Christ is so merciful and says that even we should forgive one another infinitely (70 x 7 = 490 at least), surely he is going to forgive people of different faiths who never heard of Jesus, were raised in other traditions, were misled by other faiths, or whatever. 

 The thought that Christ would collectively send Buddhists or Muslims or Hindus or Jews or Protestants to hell because they got their theology wrong or didn't belong to the right church strikes me as totally out of line with the teachings of Christ. Frankly, I would never think of belonging to a religion that taught such savagery, such lack of understanding, such harsh punishment of people who are fine people, who even had faith in God, perhaps by a different name. .
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the Church also teaches Purgatory… If you are not Catholiic or not Catholic completely in this life, havne’t worked out your salvation sufficiently (with fear and tremblign) yet you love Christ and do the besst you can, do everything Jesus said (NOT easy) you will likely end up in Purg… where you WILL become Catholic…

meaning you will become what God wants you to become and waht you need to become to enter Heaven,

where no impure thing will enter (Rev)… which is Catholic…
 
Claire_from_DE said:
Since, in the quote I highlighted above, you only printed the part of it that seems to support your position and omitted the remainder of the quote which changes the meaning of it, how can I have confidence that you have not done the same in all the others? The rest of that quote shows that Pius IV was saying exactly what the Catechism of the Catholic Church states and which you apparently reject.
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i don’t understand your post. i haven’t found anything that contradicts the belief that non-Catholics cannot be saved.
 
TobiMex said:
Friends, how could sacraments o rituals save anybody?
That cant be what you are believing, can it?

Do you really think eating a food “sactified” by the RCC could save you?
Do you really think baptism as a ritual will save you?
Do you really thin the virgin Mary has anything to do with salvation?
Do you really think praying the Rosary will change anything?
Do you really think any other ritual done by you will save you?

Come on, Jesus was speaking metaphorically of those things. He didnt say do step 1, 2 and 3 and then you are saved. The real salvation comes from your heart, and from your heart alone. Why should the LORD care about something we do in our flesh.

Remember: It is necessary for you to be born again and that is: Trust the Lord for your Salvation. Nothing done in the flesh can please him. Read the Gospel of John!
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you pronounce your beliefs as though they are infallible… and yet you say we cannot trust a Church that cliams infallibility…

who are you to say that Jesus was always speaking metaphorically on “those things”?

you have never been Catholic so you don’t understand Catholicism… Even someone who has completed RCIA doesn’t understand Catholicism as well as a catechized, practicing cradle Catholic does…

you don’t know what you speak of…

i have been outside the Church and i have been inside… You can’t say that about yourself…

it is not good to mock and belittle what you do not understand…

and this is particularly true when you belittle the One True Church
 
TobiMex said:
One more thing. The Ark of Salvation, how could that ever be a Church??? I would never say that anyone could be save by a church or by going to a church! Once again, those are things done in ones flesh, friends.

The Ark of Salvation has always, is and will always be the Lord Jesus Christ!!! From the beginning God has always saved people in his Holy Word because of their Faith and Trust in him. That is made so clearly in the letter to the Hebrews!

Dont loose yourselves believing that an institution could save you!!!
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don’t lose yoursleves believing what just any poster says here …
 
Ultima_Ratio said:
I Is it wrong to deny a dogma that has been defined; namely, outside the Church there is no salvation", based on the possibility that a man who is invincibly ignorant can attain salvation? Without any doubt

Therefore, to answer your question: The reason I did not quote the rest of what Pius IX said is because it in our day there has been an over-emphasis on the issue of invincible ignorance (which most don’t misunderstand) thereby resulting in many (most) Catholics denying a dogma that they are bound to accept.
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Claire_from_DE:
Excellent job!! 🙂

i address this to DE (?) who went through that one post and answered things one by one… don’t know why it didn’t show up… (oh… it was all in quotes)
 
TobiMex said:
Friends,

even though you dont really get the ideas I want to transmit here, I am happy that there is discussion. I do hope that you will believe one day in a Jesus-based salvation and not in your RCC based salvation. RCC does not equal the body of Christ! That is as sure as the AMEN in church as we say in Germany.

When we read scripture and scripture alone WITHOUT tradition (that has been and is the mistake of the pharisees etc.), we must see that there is but one way to God, that is Jesus Christ as the Gospel states it plenty of times - that is so that everybody understand. Understand too and read from in the Gospel, that the apostle Peter was apostle to the Jews and apostle Paul apostle to the gentiles. The first church was apart from that not the one in Rome either, read scripture please and do not believe anything I say.

The apostle Paul states also various times that we should not rely on stories and tradition, but on the true Gospel which we can read in Gods Word.

See also that the purgatory, the wrongest idea taken out from I have no idea where, not from the Word of God, makes everybody have the easy life he or she wants. We do not need to act according to the Salvation that is in Jesus Christ by faith.

After all if you always say that the only salvation is in the Roman Catholic Church, why does the pope kiss the Muslim “holy” book, that teaches a different Gospel than the Christian one. Does he believe that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is but one Gospel of various? Why does he do those kind of things and should the Catholic Church not start teaching the Gospel of exclusion and take a clear position on other faiths???

I am for real here, if you preach that the RCC is the only way for Salvation you are excluding all the other faiths. Jesus on the other hand does not exclude anybody when he says: “I am the way, the truth and the life, noone comes to the father than by me.”

If you interpret the Word of God wrong thinking that everyone that got baptised as a child, not knowing what was even being done to him, than you are nothing less than really wrong. I am sorry, but I will never understand this contradictions in all your belief and I will never see how can you believe human works to make you be saved. Read what the popes say, they contradict each other all the way long.

Thats why Christians should trust on nothing else but the Word of God only (without Apocryphs), because they were put there after the Concile of Trient in around 1545. Biblical christians do NOT believe in purgatory because it is simply not necessary when Christ cleansed you by taking upon himself your sins. It is so wrong, but of course it is convenient due to the fact that everybody who has been baptised and eats the eucharist will go to heaven in any case.

Keep on discussing and believe GODS WORD and NOT your traditions, popes, priests, writings and so on.
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you speak against Christ when you speak against His Church…

whether you believe you are doing that or not doesn’t matter… Objectively speaking, you are attacking Jesus Christ Himself…

that is very dangerous…
 
distracted said:
if you think the Catholic Church is in error why do you call yourself Catholic. I woiuldn’t belong to a Church taht i thought taught error… or did you think that sying you are Ctholic would gain you points here @ CAF?? just wondering…
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I’ve been to other churches. They are all in error so changing churches is not the answer.

It has nothing to do with me. The subject is salvation outside the church. Everyone is confused about it because the popes are not in agreement with their definition. If they were all infallible they would all say the same thing. They don’t so we have to say that some were fallible. That’s OK with me. Even if the emperor has no clothes, he is still the emperor. We just shouldn’t be carrying a false mantra. We shouldn’t be saying all popes are infallible when some of them were not. Maybe those in the middle ages were being inspired by anger rather than the Holy Spirit.
 
ron77nyc said:
I’ve been to other churches. They are all in error so changing churches is not the answer.

It has nothing to do with me. The subject is salvation outside the church. Everyone is confused about it because the popes are not in agreement with their definition. If they were all infallible they would all say the same thing. They don’t so we have to say that some were fallible. That’s OK with me. Even if the emperor has no clothes, he is still the emperor. We just shouldn’t be carrying a false mantra. We shouldn’t be saying all popes are infallible when some of them were not. Maybe those in the middle ages were being inspired by anger rather than the Holy Spirit.
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i have read all the citations here from popes and saints. i see no disagreement. maybe you could point out a contradiction…

sometimes things can sound contradictory and not really be contradictory…

are you sure you are reading correctly??

God would not give us a Church that taught error… He is not the God of confusion…

again, the popes lived in the very Presence of Christ… so why is it so hard to believe in infallibility??? it is not for me… maybe one just needs to have faith… we can’t understand eveyrhting and i don’t think we are supposed to try to u/stand everything before believing…
 
ron77nyc said:
The traditional teaching of salvation is the Feenyite position. Popes Eugene and Boniface were Feenyites. The Church does not hold that position any longer so someone has to come up with and explanation but no one can. The Church first taught salvation for non-Catholics then in the middle ages taught only Catholics were saved and today it’s back to the original position. How do you do this and still maintain papal infallibility?
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***no pope would take the position of someone who was ex-communicated… ***
 
distracted said:
i have read all the citations here from popes and saints. i see no disagreement. maybe you could point out a contradiction…
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These are the Vicars of Christ making infallible statements. They are saying you have to be a full-fledged, baptized member of the Catholic Church.

Pope Boniface VIII in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam (A.D. 1302): “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 - 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (A.D. 1438 - 1445): “[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock;…”​

**Here is what the Church says today----quoted from catholic.com: **catholic.com/library/Salv…the_Church.asp

“The Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men” (CCC 780).

"Many people misunderstand the nature of this teaching.

Indifferentists, going to one extreme, claim that it makes no difference what church one belongs to. Certain radical traditionalists, going to the other extreme, claim that unless one is a full-fledged, baptized member of the Catholic Church, one will be damned."

Is the Catholic Church today saying that the above mentioned popes are radical traditionalists?
 
ron77nyc said:
These are the Vicars of Christ making infallible statements. They are saying you have to be a full-fledged, baptized member of the Catholic Church.

Pope Boniface VIII in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam (A.D. 1302): “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 - 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (A.D. 1438 - 1445): “[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock;…”​

**Here

Indifferentists, going to one extreme, claim that it makes no difference what church one belongs to. Certain radical traditionalists, going to the other extreme, claim that unless one is a full-fledged, baptized member of the Catholic Church, one will be damned."

**Is the Catholic Church today saying that the above mentioned popes are radical traditionalists?****i couldn’t get anywhere with thatsite you gave.

and anyhow… i still see no contradiction… There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church but many people believe as the Catholic Church teaches w/o being Catholoic… One pope said soemthing about people who live as nature dictates or soemthing like that… In other words, a person following his conscience can find God…and see his laws in nature and live by them…

technically a person can be Catholic without being an official member of the Church.

it may be difficult to live a totally catholci life that way but t he Church says its not impossible…

even so, in this information-saturated society, everyone knows about Catholicism… and knows whether it appeals to their conscience or not… and knows whether they are going agianst that or not… i dont think too many Americans are “invincibly ignorant” of what ctholicsim is all about by a long shot…

i just see no contradiction. it seems to come down to You either believe that the Church is protected by God from teaching error or you don’t…
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