Is there salvation outside the Catholic church?

[paulusta]

I’ll find the link from Dwight Longenecker’s site. He wrote a very good article on it.

Looking for this?
Them and Us by Dwight Longenecker

 

[Emerite]

The 1994 Ligouri publication of Catechism of the Catholic Church, with imprimi potest by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (Pope Benedict, himself), as Interdicasterial Commission for the Catechism of the Catholic Church, states, in Part One, The Profession of Faith, in its affirmation (at page 224, Nos. 846 and 847), “ … they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”

However, at No. 847, it further states, “This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church. Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation.”

Thus, it is the Catholic Church’s belief that one who may have been reared in a Protestant faith, leading a good Christian life and fully believing that he’s correct in his method of salvation without the realization of the truth of the Catholic Church, should merit salvation.

 

[ron77nyc]

Before Vatican II Jews and Muslims were declared eternally damned. Protestants had even less of a chance for salvation. The Catholic Church has changed on this issue and others including salvation for unbaptized infants and people who commit suicide. Wouldn’t it be better to just say the Church was wrong and Popes are only human and fallible?

 

[Lionpainter]

Pope Leo XIII, Sapientiae Christianae #14, Jan. 10, 1890: “St. Thomas maintains:
‘Each one is under obligation to show forth his faith, either to instruct and
encourage others of the faithful, or to repel the attacks of unbelievers.’ To recoil
before an enemy, or to keep silence when from all sides such clamors are raised
against truth, is the part of a man either devoid of character or who entertains
doubt as to the truth of what he professes to believe.”

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:
“With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic
Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this
Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin…
Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature
that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman
Pontiff.

So what do you think?

One example of your question is found in St. Luke, Chapter 18 thru 19. Jesus said to Zacchaeus, the Publican, a rich man, “Today salvation has come to this house, since he, too, is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost”. Faith in Christ and doing good works with Jesus as your foundation will save thee. For no man can enter the Kingdom of God without first entering into His Son, Jesus Christ. But, one should be Baptized in the faith of Jesus Christ. Amen

 

[Danno2281]

Before Vatican II Jews and Muslims were declared eternally damned. Protestants had even less of a chance for salvation. The Catholic Church has changed on this issue and others including salvation for unbaptized infants and people who commit suicide. Wouldn’t it be better to just say the Church was wrong and Popes are only human and fallible?

Absolutely not. What has happened is a shift in emphasis. Please note the words capitalized in my previous posts and the carefully chosen words of the catechism: IN WAYS KNOWN ONLY TO HIMSELF. To the best of our knowledge, such people are lost, but we do accept the possibility of miracles of grace beyond our knowledge or understanding, miracles that incorporate those ostensibly outside the Church into the Church before their souls leave their bodies.

 

[jpusateri]

Absolutely not. What has happened is a shift in emphasis. Please note the words capitalized in my previous posts and the carefully chosen words of the catechism: IN WAYS KNOWN ONLY TO HIMSELF. To the best of our knowledge, such people are lost, but we do accept the possibility of miracles of grace beyond our knowledge or understanding, miracles that incorporate those ostensibly outside the Church into the Church before their souls leave their bodies.

To not accept that possibility would be to place limits upon God.

 

[Danno2281]

The 1994 Ligouri publication of Catechism of the Catholic Church, with imprimi potest by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (Pope Benedict, himself), as Interdicasterial Commission for the Catechism of the Catholic Church, states, in Part One, The Profession of Faith, in its affirmation (at page 224, Nos. 846 and 847), “ … they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”

However, at No. 847, it further states, “This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church. Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation.”

Thus, it is the Catholic Church’s belief that one who may have been reared in a Protestant faith, leading a good Christian life and fully believing that he’s correct in his method of salvation without the realization of the truth of the Catholic Church, should merit salvation.

The following is from the letter of the Holy Officw in the matter of Fr. Feeney: But it must not be thought that any kind of desire of entering the Church suffices that one may be saved. It is necessary that the desire by which one is related to the Church be animated by perfect charity. Nor can an implicit desire produce its effect, unless a person has supernatural faith: “For he who comes to God must believe that God exists and is a rewarder of those who seek Him” (Heb. 11:6). The Council of Trent declares (Session VI, chap. 8): “Faith is the beginning of man’s salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and attain to the fellowship of His children” (Denzinger, n. 801).
Please note the need for “PERFECT charity” something to which every Christian must aspire with the help of the sacraments. Considering my own need for the sacraments,especialy the sacrament of the Eucharist, I find it hard to fathom the development of “pefect” charity outside the Church and the help of the sacraments, but God’s graces are God’s business and His alone.

 

[buffalo]

Before Vatican II Jews and Muslims were declared eternally damned. Protestants had even less of a chance for salvation. The Catholic Church has changed on this issue and others including salvation for unbaptized infants and people who commit suicide. Wouldn’t it be better to just say the Church was wrong and Popes are only human and fallible?

When “No salvation outside the Church” was first pronounced there were no Protestants. There was only one church and then non-believers. It made total sense.

 

[rfpapcun]

The following is from the letter of the Holy Officw in the matter of Fr. Feeney: But it must not be thought that any kind of desire of entering the Church suffices that one may be saved. It is necessary that the desire by which one is related to the Church be animated by perfect charity. Nor can an implicit desire produce its effect, unless a person has supernatural faith: “For he who comes to God must believe that God exists and is a rewarder of those who seek Him” (Heb. 11:6). The Council of Trent declares (Session VI, chap. 8): “Faith is the beginning of man’s salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and attain to the fellowship of His children” (Denzinger, n. 801).
Please note the need for “PERFECT charity” something to which every Christian must aspire with the help of the sacraments. Considering my own need for the sacraments,especialy the sacrament of the Eucharist, I find it hard to fathom the development of “pefect” charity outside the Church and the help of the sacraments, but God’s graces are God’s business and His alone.

Yes, the requirement of “perfect charity” for non-Catholics is one of those “minor” points that most forget when discussing this topic. And you are right: without the help of the sacraments, the development of perfect charity is almost impossible.

 

[Episkope]

Seems to me need to first answer to be discerned is, Who or what is the catholic church? If it is is only those in full membership/communion with Rome then how can one explain canon 844 which allows members of other churches like the Eastern Orthodox and Polish National Catholic Church to receive communion, penance, and anointing?

See usccb.org/liturgy/q&a/mass/communion.shtml

Also is the answer is iron clad acceptance then what about the refusal to accept the dogmas of Infallibility, Immaculate Conception, and Assumption. Each of these Roman Dogmas clearly states if you don’t believe these doctrines are essentials of the faith you are anathema - out of the church? If this is true then once again how can sacraments be given to people who by their very choice are anathema be they Eastern Orthodox, PNCC, or even Roman Catholics who do not believe them to be essentials of the faith?

So once again it seems to me only when we know what the Catholic Church is can we begin to discuss its role in salvation.

 

[una_fides]

Looking for this?
Them and Us by Dwight Longenecker

This article is not good at all and utilizes faulty reasoning and emphasis. After citing an infallible declaration stating that non-Catholics including Jews and Pagans, etc cannot be saved unless they enter the Church, the author makes the following statement: “his words are not so much a comment on the eternal state of Protestants, pagans and infidels as they are a call to the Catholic faithful not to lapse into schism or depart in heresy.” He claims that since the document was sent to those who were departing from the faith that it only applies to them. The author is ignoring the text and substituting it with the context. The text is true regardless of whether it was sent to a schismatic group or a group of nuns or whoever. Truth is truth. Impugning the motives or character of the pope also does not diminish the truth of his message, which is true on account of his office not his personality. If a pope intended to bind the faithful with a document then it applies to the scope that the text of the document states, and in this case, and in the cases of other infallible declarations asserting the exact same thing, it applies to everyone (unless invincibly ignorant).

 

[una_fides]

Before Vatican II Jews and Muslims were declared eternally damned. Protestants had even less of a chance for salvation. The Catholic Church has changed on this issue and others including salvation for unbaptized infants and people who commit suicide. Wouldn’t it be better to just say the Church was wrong and Popes are only human and fallible?

If the Church is wrong about one thing, it can no longer be trusted with anything. The canon of Scripture, doctrine of the Trinity, nature of the Church, etc, etc… all the dogmas defined by the Church would no longer hold any weight and everyone would be on his own to believe whatever he wants. The reason the Church is infallible is so that we can know the truth, and the truth can then set us free. And we know from Scripture that the Church is “the pillar and foundation of truth.” The Church did not change its position, but it did shift the emphasis and has used much more vague wording recently to describe this infallibly defined dogma. The Church, however, has only done so in recent years according to her ordinary magisterium, which is non-infallible; whereas the past declarations that have been posted on here are infallible declarations that we as Catholics know are certain and true without a doubt. I will post the infallible declarations in my next post so that everyone can be clear as to what statements are unquestionably true. We then determine how to understand that truth in the same way and the same sense that it has always been understood, as Vatican I infallibly defined is the way we understand dogmas of the faith.

 

[colocat]

This is an interesting question, but I don’t lose a lot of sleep over the answer. Ultimately, God in his mercy is the final answer. The CCC says the answer is a qualified Yes. Sometimes, through no fault of their own, people don’t know the Catholic church, like me before I converted. The danger in all of this, especially for Catholics, is to become overconfident, even to the point of self righteousness. As Catholics, our charge should be gratitude to God and to Jesus for the gift of Holy Mother Church, prayer for all and especially the conversion of non Christian and non Catholic souls, and faithful witness with our lives, leading to conversion of others. As for the question, I’ll let God answer it, and not presume to know everything, as so many of us are wont to do. A little humility wouldn’t hurt, either. May God’s grace be upon all forum members and readers.

 

[una_fides]

The following are the infallible declarations of the Church on the matter of no salvation outside the Church (extra ecclesiam nulla salus):

The Athanasian Creed – One of the symbols of the Faith approved by the Church and given a place in her liturgy.
This Creed included in Ecumenical & Infallible Council of Florence: ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM
“Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. … Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man. … This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” newadvent.org/cathen/02033b.htm

IV Lateran Council 1215: “One indeed is the universal Church of the Faithful, outside of which no one at all is saved.” Pope Innocent III ex Cathedra. fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.html

Pope Boniface VIII. Unam Sanctam – 18 November 1302: (infallible papal declaration)
“Therefore whoever resists this power thus ordained by God, resists the ordinance of God [Rom 13:2] … Now, therefore, we declare, say, determine and pronounce that for every human creature it is necessary for salvation to be subject to the authority of the Roman pontiff" papalencyclicals.net/Bon08/B8unam.htm

The Council of Florence (A.D. 1438-1445) From Cantate Domino — Papal Bull of Pope Eugene IV:
(Infallible General Council & Ex Cathedra papal declaration) ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM
The sacrosanct Roman Church…firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

 

[una_fides]

How then could anyone be saved who is not an actual member of the visible Catholic Church here on earth? (meaning not going to an actual Catholic Church and receiving actual Catholic sacraments). The answer is that if someone is invincibly ignorant of Christ’s Church, then he or she could possibly be saved in spite of this ignorance if they live a life of grace. Such a person would be a member of the Church through an implicit desire for baptism. However, mere ignorance alone does not suffice; it must be invincible. I will post some magisterial documents in my next post on ignorance.

 

[ron77nyc]

When “No salvation outside the Church” was first pronounced there were no Protestants. There was only one church and then non-believers. It made total sense.

There were Jews and Muslims. How could popes under the guidance of the Holy Spirit exclude them through the greater part of Church history and then other popes guided by the same Spirit contradict the earlier popes?

 

[una_fides]

Pope St. Pius X. Acerbo Nimis. 1905: “Our Predecessor, Benedict XIV, had just cause to write: “We declare that a great number of those who are condemned to eternal punishment suffer that everlasting calamity because of ignorance of those mysteries of faith which must be known and believed in order to be numbered among the elect.” vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_15041905_acerbo-nimis_en.html

Pope Pius IX (1846-1878), Encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore, August 10, 1863:
6. Now, since our Apostolic Office demands we carefully and zealously defend the cause of the Church committed to us by Christ, we condemn those who attack and despise the Church itself, its sacred laws, ministers, and this Apostolic See. Hence, with this letter, once more we confirm, proclaim and condemn totally and singly that which in many consistorial allocutions and in our other Letters we have been forced to deplore, declare and condemn.[3]
7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.
8. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom “the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior.”[4] The words of Christ are clear enough: “If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you a Gentile and a tax collector;”[5] “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me;”[6] “He who does not believe will be condemned;”[7] “He who does not believe is already condemned;”[8] “He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.”[9] The Apostle Paul says that such persons are “perverted and self-condemned;”[10] the Prince of the Apostles calls them “false teachers . . . who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master. . . bringing upon themselves swift destruction.”[11]
papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9quanto.htm
From the Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII on Jesus Christ the Redeemer. Tametsi Futura Prospicientibus: November 1900.
But this supremacy of man, which openly rejects Christ, or at least ignores Him, is entirely founded upon selfishness, knowing neither charity nor self-devotion. Man may indeed be king, through Jesus Christ: but only on condition that he first of all obey God, and diligently seek his rule of life in God’s law. … Hence all who would find salvation apart from the Church, are led astray and strive in vain. vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_01111900_tametsi-futura-prospicientibus_en.html

Encyclical of Pope Gregory SVI promulgated on 15 August 1832 Mirari Vos:
“Now We consider another abundant source of the evils with which the Church is afflicted at present: indifferentism. This perverse opinion is spread on all sides by the fraud of the wicked who claim that it is possible to obtain the eternal salvation of the soul by the profession of any kind of religion, as long as morality is maintained. Surely, in so clear a matter, you will drive this deadly error far from the people committed to your care. ewtn.com/library/encyc/g16mirar.htm

Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World – Gaudium et Spes
16. … Conscience frequently errs from invincible ignorance without losing its dignity. The same cannot be said for a man who cares but little for truth and goodness, or for a conscience which by degrees grows practically sightless as a result of habitual sin.
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_cons_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html

 

[ron77nyc]

Absolutely not. What has happened is a shift in emphasis. Please note the words capitalized in my previous posts and the carefully chosen words of the catechism: IN WAYS KNOWN ONLY TO HIMSELF. To the best of our knowledge, such people are lost, but we do accept the possibility of miracles of grace beyond our knowledge or understanding, miracles that incorporate those ostensibly outside the Church into the Church before their souls leave their bodies.

Why didn’t the earlier popes know about this?

 

[Lionpainter]

One example of your question is found in St. Luke, Chapter 18 thru 19. Jesus said to Zacchaeus, the Publican, a rich man, “Today salvation has come to this house, since he, too, is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost”. Faith in Christ and doing good works with Jesus as your foundation will save thee. For no man can enter the Kingdom of God without first entering into His Son, Jesus Christ. But, one should be Baptized in the faith of Jesus Christ. Amen

I am a Roman Catholic and my name is Roman. When I was a boy in a catholic orphanage I had an experience. That experience showed me the things to come. And in that experience, I was told: not to be afraid, don’t look back and these are the things to come. With that in mind. Let me ask a question to all of you; Is it not possible that the Son of Man walks the Earth now? With all the catastrophic events unfolding, the Web of Nations (banking system) pretty much being destroyed, I would say I have all the faith in the world that God’s Word is at hand.

 

[una_fides]

Why didn’t the earlier popes know about this?

I realize the question was not directed to me, but I’d like to supply my answer. First, popes are not all knowing. Only God is. Second, just because we don’t have a particular writing to demonstrate the knowledge of an early pope on a matter, does not mean that popes were ignorant of such a fact. It would be enough to say that the topic likely was simply not brought up explicitly by popes in the limited number of writings we possess from them, but such would not prove that it was not part of the faith. We do not have a record of anyone ever calling God a “Trinity” until a few hundred years after Christ rose from the dead, yet that does not change the fact that we know that God is Trinity. This point brings us to the third. Dogmas develop. We can know certain foundational truths of religion, but it takes time for the Church and her theologians to piece them together or to state them in a concise manner. That said, if you search through the early Church fathers, you will find writings that attest to invincible ignorance and baptism of desire. Though they did not refer to these concepts explicitly by such names, they did explain them or stumble upon them on occasion. Regardless, we know that the early Church universally understood the successors as possessing apostolic authority to bind and loose doctrines of the faith. If it is bound, we know it is true because we trust in God who has revealed it, who can neither deceive nor be deceived.