Is there salvation outside the Catholic church?

[codebilly]

How many churches did Jesus start?

Matt 16:13-20

But of course then, we have the problem of Paul, Orthodoxy, and various controversies regarding 1st among equals and scriptural issues (e.g. Gal. 2:11-16 )

Also, the Churches of St. Thomas, seemed to evolved independently of Rome for quite some time.

If counting then, the eastern rite churches in communion with Rome, I think Jesus started about 23 churches. Counting the branches St. Paul ( Orthodox ) we have quite a few more.

 

[buffalo]

Matt 16:13-20

But of course then, we have the problem of Paul, Orthodoxy, and various controversies regarding 1st among equals and scriptural issues (e.g. Gal. 2:11-16 )

Also, the Churches of St. Thomas, seemed to evolved independently of Rome for quite some time.

If counting then, the eastern rite churches in communion with Rome, I think Jesus started about 23 churches. Counting the branches St. Paul ( Orthodox ) we have quite a few more.

They are all Catholic.

 

[codebilly]

I don’t know how many churches did JESUS start. I fail to find in scripture where HE started the Catholic church. Oh I know that JESUS told Peter that upon this rock, meaning the rock of his proclamation that JESUS was the SON of GOD, Not that JESUS was going to start a church based upon a man, Peter. Besides, Peter had a mother-in-law, which meant he had a wife which is taboo for a priest. And if Peter was to be the first pope, which they are to be considered infalliable, why did Paul confront him for an error in his behavior around the jews( Galatians 2). Or even upon Peter’s denial of being a disciple of the CHRIST???

Peter’s testimony that Jesus was the Christ.

Peter, for himself and his brethren, said that they were assured of our Lord’s being the promised Messiah, the Son of the living God. This showed that they believed Jesus to be more than man. Our Lord declared Peter to be blessed, as the teaching of God made him differ from his unbelieving countrymen. Christ added that he had named him Peter, in allusion to his stability or firmness in professing the truth. The word translated to rock, is not the same word as Peter, but is of a similar meaning. Nothing can be more wrong than to suppose that Christ meant the person of Peter was the rock. Without doubt Christ himself is the Rock, the tried foundation of the church; and woe to him that attempts to lay any other! Peter’s confession is this rock as to doctrine. If Jesus be not the Christ, those that own him are not of the church, but deceivers and deceived. Our Lord next declared the authority with which Peter would be invested. He spoke in the name of his brethren, and this related to them as well as to him. They had no certain knowledge of the characters of men, and were liable to mistakes and sins in their own conduct; but they were kept from error in stating the way of acceptance and salvation, the rule of obedience, the believer’s character and experience, and the final doom of unbelievers and hypocrites. In such matters their decision was right, and it was confirmed in heaven. But all pretensions of any man, either to absolve or retain men’s sins, are blasphemous and absurd. None can forgive sins but God only. And this binding and loosing, in the common language of the Jews, signified to forbid and to allow, or to teach what is lawful or unlawful. (Mt 16:21-23)

You’ve got a few decent points, but because you can cite these arguments and quote scripture does not make you a greater authority than Peter, the Apostles, and Paul. It can be historically shown that Paul and the apostles founded a “Catholic” church, either Orthodox, Eastern rite, or Roman Catholic, all with a sacramental foundation, a priestly tradition, and apostolic succession.

Regarding married priests, that too is OK for certain rites (Catholic Churches) in union with Rome, and for Orthodox catholics.

Perhaps the most amazing proof that Jesus founded a Liturgical, priestly, and sacramental Church is found in the history of the St. Thomas churches in India. These churches evolved as a sacramental, liturgical apostolic Church, sharing all the same foundational teachings of Roman, Eastern, and Orthodox Catholocism, independently from Pauline and Petrine traditions!

The cornerstone foundation of Jesus’ Church is set forth at the Last Supper, when Jesus surrendered His Body and Blood and ordered … “Do this in remembrance of Me”

Hence, the Catholic churches are the orthodox worship of Jesus in the congregational worship of Him in His eternal sacrifice.

You cannot establish your own church. You have no apostolic succession or authority. You can say that the Word of God is the authority and that is true, but you don’t own the Word, nor is your interpretation of the Word greater than the apostles, Paul, and the Church Fathers.

They are greater saints than you and they are, en masse, Catholic!

 

[codebilly]

They are all Catholic.

yep!

 

[buffalo]

yep!

and all of the one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church Christ founded.

 

[buffalo]

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Ephesians 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Who founded your church and when?

 

[ShellKell]

Pope Leo XIII, Sapientiae Christianae #14, Jan. 10, 1890: “St. Thomas maintains:

‘Each one is under obligation to show forth his faith, either to instruct and
encourage others of the faithful, or to repel the attacks of unbelievers.’ To recoil
before an enemy, or to keep silence when from all sides such clamors are raised
against truth, is the part of a man either devoid of character or who entertains
doubt as to the truth of what he professes to believe.”

The only place there is Salvation is in CHRIST.
Not in an organization or denomination.

 

[napad]

There were Jews and Muslims. How could popes under the guidance of the Holy Spirit exclude them through the greater part of Church history and then other popes guided by the same Spirit contradict the earlier popes?

:clapping: Good Point!

 

[reform3703]

The Necessity of Being Catholic
by James Akin
chnetwork.org/journals/nesschurch/ness_7.htm

One of the most controversial papal documents ever released was the bull Unam Sanctam, issued in 1302 by Pope Boniface VIII. Today the most controversial part of the bull is the following infallible pronouncement: “Now, therefore, we declare, say, define, and pronounce that for every human creature it is altogether necessary for salvation to be subject to the authority of the Roman pontiff.”

This doctrine is extraordinarily controversial. Some Catholic extremists claim (contrary to further Church teaching, including a further infallible definition) that this means everyone who is not a full-fledged, professing Catholic is damned. Non-Catholics find the claim offensive, sectarian, and anti-Christian in sentiment.

Most Catholics who are aware of the definition find it embarrassing, especially in today’s ecumenical age, and many try to ignore or dismiss it, though even liberal Catholic theologians admit it is a genuine doctrinal definition and must in some sense be true.

Its truth was reinforced by Vatican II, which stated: "This holy Council . . . asing itself on Scripture and Tradition . . . teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation. . . . [Christ] himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16, John 3:5), and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it" (Lumen Gentium 14).

+++

I encourage everyone, Catholic and non-Catholic, to read Mr. Akin’s article fully and carefully.

It may be necessary to note that the term “catholic” means universal, rather than simply denoting a specific denomination. That meaning is what drove the Roman Church to be called the Roman Catholic Church, seeing as it was conceived as universal and, with the exception of the Orthodox Church, was until the 16th century. When Boniface VIII made his declaration, the Reformation had not yet taken place and the Catholic Church was, for the most part, singular in its Christian nature.

 

[Danno2281]

I don’t know how many churches did JESUS start. I fail to find in scripture where HE started the Catholic church. Oh I know that JESUS told Peter that upon this rock, meaning the rock of his proclamation that JESUS was the SON of GOD, Not that JESUS was going to start a church based upon a man, Peter. Besides, Peter had a mother-in-law, which meant he had a wife which is taboo for a priest.

Just looking at these statements makes it obvious that the poster is not (any longer?) a Catholic, that his knowledge of scritpure is woefully lacking, and that he has failed to read the posts which went before. 1) In the language which Jesus spoke (Aramaic, or Syro-Chaldean) there is no question about what He said to Peter He called Peter the rock upon which He woul build His Church. "You are a rock, and upon this rock I will build My Church.2)Was Peter married at Jesus time? Possibly, but it may well be that his wife was deceased, which would explain why, after being cured of fever, his mother-in-law waited upon them rather than his wife.
3) You don’t understand infallibility and have confused it with impeccability. Peter could, like every human, be wrong, sin. But like all saints who are also sinners, he knew how to repent.
4)“Who hears you hears Me.”(Lk:10,16) What the Church says, Christ says.
5) Christ gave his apostles the power to forgive sins (Jn:20,23) “Who can forgive sins but only God” was uttered by Christ’s enemies.

 

[ron77nyc]

How many churches did Jesus start?

Jesus only started one church and He gave very clear examples on how to lead it and how not to lead it. His Catholic Church abused power, misguided His people, and became a political power. When this happens people say yes to God and no to the Church.

 

[Danno2281]

It may be necessary to note that the term “catholic” means universal, rather than simply denoting a specific denomination. That meaning is what drove the Roman Church to be called the Roman Catholic Church, seeing as it was conceived as universal and, with the exception of the Orthodox Church, was until the 16th century. When Boniface VIII made his declaration, the Reformation had not yet taken place and the Catholic Church was, for the most part, singular in its Christian nature.

These cosiderations have nothing to do with the declaration What this declaration enjoins is obedience on the part of all too the ecclesiastical authority of the Roman Pontiff, and salvation is bound to recognizing that obedience, whether on the part of the
Eastern Christians, the Albigensians, or whomever.

 

[napad]

I disagree on the dangers here. We are all sinners – so why should Catholics become self-righteous?!

The real danger is that people are left outside the Ark of Salvation. “Unless you be born again of water and the Spirit, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” The Church has always taken these words to absolutely require baptism for salvation.

Our theological parsing does not determine who is saved and who is not. Hopefully we engage in this talk to enable us to decide how we should act in a practical way.

The liberal side – God is compassionate, leave it to His mercy, etc. – presumes a lot. Unless what Christ said is true, this argument makes Him a liar. It also renders the Great Commission an exercise in futility. If aborted babies are saved by God’s mercy, then abortion is not the work of the devil, but the greatest boon to mankind, since all those millions are saved. Finally, this position makes the Church quasi-irrelevant, since most of mankind can be saved without the benefit of the sacraments or the Mass.

By contrast, the rigorous position takes Scripture and the Magisterium to mean what they say. (If in fact you read these things carefully, how could they have said what they meant more forcefully?!) But by being less inclusive, we don’t place people in hell – we merely seek to establish their probable peril and to warn them of it. Other than hurting feelings, what is the downside to this?

Yet everywhere we look, we see Catholics indignantly defending the ability of non-Catholics to be saved. And for what purpose?

.

well said

 

[Emerite]

I’m replying to Danno 2281’s quote below:

“I don’t know how many churches did JESUS start. I fail to find in scripture where HE started the Catholic church. Oh I know that JESUS told Peter that upon this rock, meaning the rock of his proclamation that JESUS was the SON of GOD, Not that JESUS was going to start a church based upon a man, Peter. Besides, Peter had a mother-in-law, which meant he had a wife which is taboo for a priest.”

About St. Peter having a wife, which is taboo for a priest, at this moment, I don’t have documentation to prove my point, however I learned years ago that during early days of the Catholic Church, priests were allowed to be married.

People, including a dear educated physician relative of mine, seem to have difficulty understanding that Church laws can be changed, however God’s laws brought to us through the teachings of Jesus Christ, and written in the Gospels, cannot be changed.

 

[Celebration44]

Wow.
How arrogant we have become.
Jesus would be appalled at what has become of us … sitting around for hours deciding who gets into heaven and who doesn’t. By the way … Baptist’s are sitting around saying that Catholics aren’t getting into heaven.

I have spoken to Jesus directly. This was never intended. He was grossly misquoted in the bible, by well-meaning story-relayers who never heard his actual words. He forgives us all. We all get into heaven. Our soul then learns from its past life, and chooses to enter a new human body in an eternal process of learning and growing. Do any of you think this was Mother Teresa’s first time on earth?!

 

[NotWorthy]

The only place there is Salvation is in CHRIST.
Not in an organization or denomination.

That’s why we reside in the Bride of Christ, which is The Church!

 

[Ralph_Macdonald]

Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

No.

Does that mean that ‘only’ Catholics are saved?

No.

Does that mean that any person, Catholic or nonCatholic, is somehow saved through the Catholic Church (as the Bride of Christ and thus ‘united’ spousally to Christ so that the two are one)?

Yes.

You know the more I hear about the Catholic church,the more I am convinced that this church is a cult. I spent 43 years in that church and now I can see that they have their own gospel and do not follow the Bible, they are all blinded by Satan. Ralph.

 

[buffalo]

Wow.
How arrogant we have become.
Jesus would be appalled at what has become of us … sitting around for hours deciding who gets into heaven and who doesn’t. By the way … Baptist’s are sitting around saying that Catholics aren’t getting into heaven.

I have spoken to Jesus directly. This was never intended. He was grossly misquoted in the bible, by well-meaning story-relayers who never heard his actual words. He forgives us all. We all get into heaven. Our soul then learns from its past life, and chooses to enter a new human body in an eternal process of learning and growing. Do any of you think this was Mother Teresa’s first time on earth?!

So the guarantor of truth the Holy Spirit God sent is off the job?

 

[NotWorthy]

You know the more I hear about the Catholic church,the more I am convinced that this church is a cult. I spent 43 years in that church and now I can see that they have their own gospel and do not follow the Bible, they are all blinded by Satan. Ralph.

Wow, Ralph. Tell us what you really think.

Can I be the first to say, “Welcome to the Forums, and if you keep up this rhetoric, enjoy your very brief stay”.

 

[reform3703]

Wow, Ralph. Tell us what you really think.

Can I be the first to say, “Welcome to the Forums, and if you keep up this rhetoric, enjoy your very brief stay”.

Not the best way of putting it, but not altogether wrong. I’m not the Catholic Church’s #1 fan, but still…